How could God possibly experience our physical worlds?

[Bahman]

Bahman,

The Holy Trinity is the answer for you.

The Father outside of time.
The Holy Spirit sustains existence and motion of every particle.
The Son is in time.

Still it’s One True God.

How these three being could coexist, one outside time, another inside time, and being one being, namely God, at the same time?

 

[Jaaanosik]

How these three being could coexist, one outside time, another inside time, and being one being, namely God, at the same time?

Because They are what They are.
The way how I described the Trinity makes sense to me.
You are asking tough questions and the answers can be founded only on your faith.
Whatever understanding you are going to obtain (maybe my description might help you) will have to rely on your faith. The faith is a gift from God.
Ask God and He’ll give you the gift.

 

[empther]

Originally Posted by Jaaanosik View Post
Bahman,

The Holy Trinity is the answer for you.

The Father outside of time.
The Holy Spirit sustains existence and motion of every particle.
The Son is in time. :bigyikes:

Still it’s One True God.

The human nature of Jesus is in time, but the divine person Son of God is eternal.

In any case,
there’s no use trying to convince an atheist or skeptic of anything.
Once they’ve settled on their ill-considered set of theological ideas,
no amount of reasoning will convince them otherwise. Their pride won’t allow them to admit they were wrong.

 

[Blue_Horizon]

I have serious issue with Christian God. God in this picture knows everything even our actions. Creation is then moving along a sharp line known by God, given the initial state, God knows state of universe at any given time. One of the main issue with this picture is that all states of creation is in mind of God which is similar to movie , all frames are present there but there is no action in it. To have action God has to play the movie frame by frame so state of creation can change over time. To do so God should know the current time, which its knowledge is crucial to God otherwise God does not know which frame should be presented. The other issue is that the frame should be played with proper speed (time) otherwise we couldn’t not possibly perform well in a creation which is very fast or very slow. The problem arises from the fact that Christian believe we are living in mind of God, so the creation. This means that the state of mind of God is subject to a change, since otherwise there would be no action in creation as well. Simple creation is an state of mind of God, creation is subject to a change of time, so mind of God is subject to this change.

If you believe Creation is to be understood analogically as little more than the stream of “God’s consciousness” then I can understand why you have those difficulties.

Its a huge anthropromorphism and isn’t supportable very far as you rightly state.

Maybe your assumption that we have to find a close human model to understand the issue of Creation needs tweaking.

Just because we cannot find an intuitive model that easily works doesn’t logically seem to mean the difficult reality of Creation cannot be true.

 

[bzkoss236]

I have serious issue with Christian God. God in this picture knows everything even our actions. Creation is then moving along a sharp line known by God, given the initial state, God knows state of universe at any given time. One of the main issue with this picture is that all states of creation is in mind of God which is similar to movie , all frames are present there but there is no action in it. To have action God has to play the movie frame by frame so state of creation can change over time. To do so God should know the current time, which its knowledge is crucial to God otherwise God does not know which frame should be presented. The other issue is that the frame should be played with proper speed (time) otherwise we couldn’t not possibly perform well in a creation which is very fast or very slow. The problem arises from the fact that Christian believe we are living in mind of God, so the creation. This means that the state of mind of God is subject to a change, since otherwise there would be no action in creation as well. Simple creation is an state of mind of God, creation is subject to a change of time, so mind of God is subject to this change.

No, God doesn’t ned to look at it frame by frame because he sses all frames at once and can interact with every frame at the same time.

 

[Bahman]

Because They are what They are.
The way how I described the Trinity makes sense to me.
You are asking tough questions and the answers can be founded only on your faith.
Whatever understanding you are going to obtain (maybe my description might help you) will have to rely on your faith. The faith is a gift from God.
Ask God and He’ll give you the gift.

Thank you very much for being open on this subject.

 

[Bahman]

The human nature of Jesus is in time, but the divine person Son of God is eternal.

How do you know that this doesn’t apply to all beings with consciousness.

In any case,
there’s no use trying to convince an atheist or skeptic of anything.

I am atheist but skeptic.

Once they’ve settled on their ill-considered set of theological ideas,
no amount of reasoning will convince them otherwise. Their pride won’t allow them to admit they were wrong.

Firstly, this phrase apply to you too “Once they’ve settled on their ill-considered set of theological ideas, no amount of reasoning will convince them otherwise.”

Secondly, that is through challenging ideas that we could search the truth and find the truth.

 

[Bahman]

Maybe your assumption that we have to find a close human model to understand the issue of Creation needs tweaking.

I think the model that could describe evolution of creation is far complex than what people in this forum believe and there is no reason to believe that a simple model could describe it.

Just because we cannot find an intuitive model that easily works doesn’t logically seem to mean the difficult reality of Creation cannot be true.

I have nothing against the idea of creation.

 

[Bahman]

No, God doesn’t need to look at it frame by frame because he sees all frames at once and can interact with every frame at the same time.

I know that God see all frames together but in order that each frame has the possibility to be represented in proper order, God has to represent them sequentially. This requires an act within inside mind of God in which time and change are involved which is contradictory with idea of God in timeless state.

 

[Jaaanosik]

I know that God see all frames together but in order that each frame has the possibility to be represented in proper order, God has to represent them sequentially. This requires an act within inside mind of God in which time and change are involved which is contradictory with idea of God in timeless state.

One way of looking at it is that the Holy Spirit executes Father’s will ‘frame by frame’.
Therefore the God’s creations can exist within the spacetime.

 

[Bahman]

One way of looking at it is that the Holy Spirit executes Father’s will ‘frame by frame’.
Therefore the God’s creations can exist within the spacetime.

That doesn’t resolve the problem since you didn’t explain how a being Holy Spirit and Father, one in state of time and another in state of timeless could possibly interact with each other, so the problem stay unresolved.

 

[empther]

Quote:
Originally Posted by empther View Post
The human nature of Jesus is in time, but the divine person Son of God is eternal.

How do you know that this doesn’t apply to all beings with consciousness.

:bigyikes:

This is about as ridiculous as anything I’ve seen yet.

You got to wonder if the poster does this deliberately or is he a fourth grader thumbing through a textbook on nuclear physics.

 

[Bahman]

:bigyikes:

This is about as ridiculous as anything I’ve seen yet.

You got to wonder if the poster does this deliberately or is he a fourth grader thumbing through a textbook on nuclear physics.

Were you a part of God plan in the beginning of creation? If yes, then your soul is as eternal/old as creation.

 

[empther]

Were you a part of God plan in the beginning of creation? If yes, then your soul is as eternal/old as creation.

… …

Well, that answers my quesiton. He is doing this deliberately.

 

[Jaaanosik]

That doesn’t resolve the problem since you didn’t explain how a being Holy Spirit and Father, one in state of time and another in state of timeless could possibly interact with each other, so the problem stay unresolved.

The Holy Spirit is not in time. The time is one of the ‘dimensions’ the Holy Spirit creates.
Here is a visualization that is not perfect but at least something.
Imagine that the Holy Spirit is like a water. He has a power to create a whirlpool.
The whirlpool creates bubbles. The bubbles are particles.
The movement of particles creates time.

Therefore …

for in Him we live and move and exist,… Acts 17:28

is literally true statement.

 

[bzkoss236]

I know that God see all frames together but in order that each frame has the possibility to be represented in proper order, God has to represent them sequentially. This requires an act within inside mind of God in which time and change are involved which is contradictory with idea of God in timeless state.

Your conclusion doesn’t follow. Why would God need to be within time to make donating sequential?

 

[Bahman]

Your conclusion doesn’t follow. Why would God need to be within time to make donating sequential?

Because each frame is in mind of God, they should be played sequentially by God. Simply everything is within mind of God, so any change in state of creation means a change in mind of God, change means time, so mind of God cannot be outside of time at the same time sustaining creation.

 

[Bahman]

in Him we live and move and exist.

If we live within him, then changes also occur within him, changes mean time and since everything is happening within him then it means God’s mind is subject of time.

 

[Jaaanosik]

If we live within him, then changes also occur within him, changes mean time and since everything is happening within him then it means God’s mind is subject of time.

… and we are in a loop.
You can go back to my post #40.
The Trinity is the answer …
This is what we believe. This was revealed to us by God. We accept that based on the faith.
You’ll be searching till you sincerely ask God for the gift - the faith.

 

[TimothyH]

The human nature of Jesus is in time, but the divine person Son of God is eternal.

In any case,
there’s no use trying to convince an atheist or skeptic of anything.
Once they’ve settled on their ill-considered set of theological ideas,
no amount of reasoning will convince them otherwise. Their pride won’t allow them to admit they were wrong.

His human nature and his divine nature are inseparable. His human nature cannot be inside of time and creation while his divine nature is simultaneously outside of time and creation. That would require that his two natures be separated and that is not possible.

Though the Second Person of the Trinity was inside of time and creation, he was able to transcend the laws of creation at will. He walked on water. He multiplied loaves. He raised the dead and was transformed on the mountain. He withered the fig tree with a word and calmed the raging sea and sky with a single rebuke.

Jesus was able to transcend the laws of nature and physics in a more profound way after the ressurrection - his glorified body was able to pass through the locked door to the upper room and he was able to appear and disappear at will on the road to Emmaus. His sacramental presence is still able to transcend matter, time and space - bread and wine being changed into the entire substance of his body, blood, soul and divinity, able to exist simultaneously in tabernacles all over the world and at different times throughout history.

The Second Person of the Trinity was inside creation but able to transcend creation when it suited his mission. He had the power to annihilate all of creation at will and might have done so as he hung on the cross but for his love, asking the Father to forgive us instead.

Jesus had the power to control creation - time, space and matter - but humbled himself, willingly taking on all the limitations of creation and humanity. He was able to step out of those limitations at will, when it suited his needs.

-Tim-