How could God truly be self-sacrificing?

[bfree1216]

Someone asked me this the other day and I wasn’t able to answer them as best as I would like. In brief, here’s their question:

So as Christians, we claim God to be truly self-sacrificing. But in creating the world, it all began with self-interest. In other words, God wanted it some way, so God made it in said way. Where does self-sacrifice come into play here?

Additionally, if God truly loved us, wouldn’t He give us power over Himself? I told the person, He has given us power over himself through free will. But they asked, why not power over His very being? Why not give humans the power to destroy God Himself? Wouldn’t this be true love? True self-sacrifice?

To be fair, I explained, humans did destroy God–I mean, look at the Passion–but they insisted that if God truly loved us, He would’ve given us power over all of God, not just His Son. If God was truly self-sacrificing, He would’ve given us liability over His very self.

He would’ve made us God(s), even to the point where we were greater than God Himself.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Fauken]

they asked, why not power over His very being ? Why not give humans the power to destroy God Himself? Wouldn’t this be true love? True self-sacrifice?

This makes no sense. Should I be able to chain my spouse in a dungeon and cry when he refuses because he doesn’t “love” me? Self-sacrifice does not mean one loses all autonomy to the beloved. That’s not sacrifice, that’s slavery and abuse. How on earth could we even destroy God upon whose existence everything rests upon? And even if it was, why should we? Should you let your spouse put a cyanide capsule in your teeth just to prove your love?

if God truly loved us, He would’ve given us power over all of God, not just His Son.

God isn’t separate. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one God. There is only one God.

He would’ve made us God(s), even to the point where we were greater than God Himself.

Not necessarily for the reasons mentioned above.

 

[Wesrock]

Aside from it being total logical nonsense to have power over the Divine Nature…

But in creating the world, it all began with self-interest. In other words, God wanted it some way, so God made it in said way. Where does self-sacrifice come into play here?

I would say it’s selfless. God is no more happy in his own bliss and beatitude with creation than he would be if he gained nothing from it. The quoted description is a bit of an anthropomorphization because when humans want something, even when self-sacrificing, the human usually gets something additional out of it, such as self-satisfaction or a feeling of having done good that would be lacking otherwise. God creates and gives even though nothing we give back (or even just the knowledge that he created) adds to him in any way. God is the ultimate example of giving while not getting anything in return (because there’s nothing to be added to him, his glory, or his bliss).

I think God can only be self-sacrificing through the human nature he assumed.

 

[SimonAnoff]

Simple, one cannot destroy God, elsewise, they wouldn’t be God.

 

[rosejmj]

Good question. A pure and perfect intention when doing something requires that you do it out of love for God. If it is not done soley out of love for God than the act is imperfect. Therefore even everything God does mist be done out of love for himself and to glorify himself. Does sound kind of selfish

 

[po18guy]

I think God can only be self-sacrificing through the human nature he assumed.

Precisely.

 

[bfree1216]

Gotcha. So how would I best explain to this person that God’s “selfishness” isn’t actually “selfish” in the way we might think?

I’m seeing them in a couple more days and I’m excited to talk about this again with them!

 

[fide]

You use several words in ways that are not intended the way the Church uses the words.
Love, as God loves, is Self-gift - Self-donation - Self sacrifice - Self-emptying - those words are used to express the same thing: holy, divine love or “charity.”
For example, God the Father’s “begetting” of the Son (as in Jesus, the Son, is the only-begotten of the Father) is a timeless “self-emptying” of the Father, “into” the very Being of the Son. The Son is thus fully God - the very Being of the Son is the fullness of the Father “poured-out into Him” timelessly. Thus the Son is God as the Father is God in every way the same except for the relation of the two: the Father “begets”, the Son “is begotten”. The Father out-pours, Self-empties, Self-donates His entire Being to the Son, and thus the Son receives His All, all He is, from the Father, timelessly and fully - and the Son fully gives Himself back to the Father in complete obedience in all things, in complete Self-gift of love of Himself.

And because this mutual infinite and timeless and wholly divine exchange of complete Self-giving is the very fullness of God, each to the other, this interchange of God from God to God IS God! This relation is the Holy Spirit, who is Love, divine Love. Thus God IS Love, and in a particular Personal way, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Love.

This uniquely divine way of self-giving, of loving, “self-emptying” is expressed in the [Greek] word “kenosis”. The word is used in the New Testament here:

Php 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Php 2:7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Php 2:8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

Fr. Gene Corbon (who wrote the section on “Prayer” in the current universal Catechism), wrote this of “kenosis” in his very beautiful book, “The Wellspring of Worship”:

“The Son remains God when he becomes incarnate but he divests himself of his glory to the point of being ‘unrecognizable’ (see Is 53:2-3). Kenosis is the properly divine way of loving: becoming a human being without reservation and without calling for recognition or compelling it. Kenosis refers first to the self-emptying of the Word in the incarnation but this is completed in the self-emptying of the Spirit in the Church, while it also reveals the self-emptying of the living God in creation. The mystery of the covenant stands under the sign of kenosis, for the more far-reaching the covenant, the more complete the union. Our divinization comes through the meeting of the kenosis of God with the kenosis of the human being; the fundamental requirement of the Gospel can therefore be stated as follows: we shall be one with Christ to the extent that we ‘lose’ ourselves for him.”

 

[bfree1216]

Aside from it being total logical nonsense to have power over the Divine Nature…

Sorry for the ridiculousness, but just so I can have a better explanation for this person, can you provide me, in short, with an explanation of this logical nonsense? I don’t mean that to sound harsh at all, I’m genuinely wondering just so I can articulate it in the best way possible!

I would say it’s selfless. God is no more happy in his own bliss and beatitude with creation than he would be if he gained nothing from it. The quoted description is a bit of an anthropomorphization because when humans want something, even when self-sacrificing, the human usually gets something additional out of it, such as self-satisfaction or a feeling of having done good that would be lacking otherwise. God creates and gives even though nothing we give back (or even just the knowledge that he created) adds to him in any way. God is the ultimate example of giving while not getting anything in return (because there’s nothing to be added to him, his glory, or his bliss).

For my sake now, you’ve got me thinking about a really good question I don’t know if I know the full answer to. How do these attributes of God (for instance, the fact that nothing we give back adds to him in any way) retain the distinction that God is a personal God? In other words, if He doesn’t take more delight in Himself or in His works by creating human beings than He does without us, how could He care about us?

Thanks again!

 

[cmscms]

Additionally, if God truly loved us, wouldn’t He give us power over Himself?

Honestly, sounds like this person you are talking about has a real self-centered controlling attitude. Some people just reject authority and personally, I stay away from them. There is no point trying to argue with them because it will just fuel their anger and they will shame and mock you. I would pray for their heart to soften and I would try to be the best Catholic I can in the hopes of setting a good example. I would just firmly state these are my beliefs, they will not change. I respect you and expect your to respect in in return.

To be honest, it is like riding a bicycle. You can argue all they long about the way the bicycle is built. But until your friend actually gets on the bike and ride it, they will not understand. You can’t force your friend onto the bicycle, just hope that when he sees how much fun you are having riding it, maybe he will want to get on

 

[EZweber]

Sorry for the ridiculousness, but just so I can have a better explanation for this person, can you provide me, in short, with an explanation of this logical nonsense? I don’t mean that to sound harsh at all, I’m genuinely wondering just so I can articulate it in the best way possible!

Power over an omnipotent being. Think about it - it doesn’t really work.