J
JRKH
Guest
In a sense this is true since the marriage vow is “until death us do part”.
However this does not change teh fact that someone we cared deeply about on earth is not in heaven with us.
peace
James
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However this does not change teh fact that someone we cared deeply about on earth is not in heaven with us.
peace
James
A
Ahimsa
Guest
Well, you’re assuming that someone we care deeply about, will in fact not be in heaven.
Plus, you’re assuming that hell will be populated by at least one human. That assumption is not Catholic doctrine.
N
nickybr38
Guest
??? I think it’s safe to say there have been many prominent Catholics who have assumed and even been SHOWN that Hell will be populated by at least one human. I’m not sure what your point is here.
A
Ahimsa
Guest
I think you are referring to the visions of saints, and the conclusions of philosophers.
But show me Church dogma/doctrine that says that there will definitely be at least one person in eternal damnation. I would like to see such dogma, if it exists.
N
nickybr38
Guest
Ah, it does say in the Catechism (1861) that the result of unrepented sin is Hell and “For our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. However, although we can judge that an act is in itself a grave offense, we must entrust judgement of persons to the justice and mercy of God.”I think you are referring to the visions of saints, and the conclusions of philosophers.
But show me Church dogma/doctrine that says that there will definitely be at least one person in eternal damnation. I would like to see such dogma, if it exists.
Also see 1864.
Now these aren’t saying that there will DEFINITELY be one human in Hell but I have a difficult time believing some of the most horrible examples of mankind repented before their death. Leaders of cults who killed themselves along with their followers, murderers who killed themselves after commiting their crimes, characters like Hitler… men who are murdered while in the midst of horrible acts (violating children and women, etc - and it does happen that these people are killed sometimes while in the midst of their terrible actions) I can’t look at those people and think to myself; There’s a pretty good chance they’re in Heaven!
Neither can I say they’re definitely in Hell. But looking at their lives and the conditions of their deaths I have a difficult time imagining they repented in the face of God. Somehow I imagine them fleeing from Him in abject fear the moment they realize that He’s real and the reality of their lives are thrust upon them.
It’s not our place to judge who goes to Hell and who doesn’t - in fact I’d wager that spending too much time wondering who’s gone up or down is a waste of our efforts. Those who have gone before us are not our concern, it’s those who are left behind that matter. It is our place to recognize that certain conditions of the heart and mind LEAD to Hell and to teach others of this reality.
That’s just my understanding though. And as I’m not Catholic I can hardly speak on what the Church teaches.
A
Ahimsa
Guest
With God, all things are possible.
D
davidv
Guest
Overall true, However, individually He needs our cooperation.
L
Laurie_Gibson
Guest
JRKH
I appreciate your continued attempts to answer my questions.
Repentance in Hell.
For those who finish their lives in contempt for God, Christ appears as a fearful Judge. It is not that Christ Changes but that his countenance is seen differently by those who Love him and those who do not.
But I do not live in contempt of God. I do not think there is a God to be in contempt of! If there is a loving God I would be happy to love and serve him. Finding out my mistake in the next life I would repent and want to do just that.
If the person is capable of making such a change they will do so before they die and choose to go to hell. If the do not,
How can they if they do not think there is a God nor life after death? And why, as I explain above would they be unable to change after discovering their mistake?
The maths example – you agree that a maths student who honestly gets his sums wrong is not culpable – so why am I if I am honestly wrong about God. You must understand this – I can no more MAKE myself believe in God than you could make yourself believe in the Loch Ness Monster. How can I be punished for not having a belief that I cannot acquire?
Do you accept the possibility of God or not?
I am touched by your concern. To answer you directly – it is possible that there is a God. But it is possible that there is a Loch Ness Monster- and in my humble view about the same amount of evidence for both.
Fred who has sinned and is now in Hell.The fact that he has done things that have caused him to enter hell, the fact that he has lived his life in gross sin - to the point of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, has preconditioned himself to not repenting in Hell.
You do not explain why the fact that he is in agony and despair would not get him to want to change, to repent and to ask God to help him reform.
Satan – why would he rebel against an omnipotent being?
We could ask the same question of the story in the NT where Satan tempts Jesus in the Desert. Why would Saten attempt to trip up the Son of God, when he had to know that he would lose.
You could indeed and I’d give the same answer – he would not do it – the story cannot be correct if taken literally – a symbolic interpretation would be OK though.
I think I’ll call it a day but a quick comment on how I see our discussion.
**You have faith that what you have been taught about Hell and Satan is true and nothing I say is going to change your mind. When I point out something in the story that is very unlikely you come up with a ‘perhaps the reason is XYZ’ answer even though XYZ is also unlikely. But, as you are sure the story is true – you are sure there is SOME explanation.
On the other hand I just see all the absurdities, and unlikely scenarios etc as a strong reason for rejecting the story and a medieval tale that is unlikely to be true.**
Can we go any further?
Regards
Laurie
I appreciate your continued attempts to answer my questions.
Repentance in Hell.
For those who finish their lives in contempt for God, Christ appears as a fearful Judge. It is not that Christ Changes but that his countenance is seen differently by those who Love him and those who do not.
But I do not live in contempt of God. I do not think there is a God to be in contempt of! If there is a loving God I would be happy to love and serve him. Finding out my mistake in the next life I would repent and want to do just that.
If the person is capable of making such a change they will do so before they die and choose to go to hell. If the do not,
How can they if they do not think there is a God nor life after death? And why, as I explain above would they be unable to change after discovering their mistake?
The maths example – you agree that a maths student who honestly gets his sums wrong is not culpable – so why am I if I am honestly wrong about God. You must understand this – I can no more MAKE myself believe in God than you could make yourself believe in the Loch Ness Monster. How can I be punished for not having a belief that I cannot acquire?
Do you accept the possibility of God or not?
I am touched by your concern. To answer you directly – it is possible that there is a God. But it is possible that there is a Loch Ness Monster- and in my humble view about the same amount of evidence for both.
Fred who has sinned and is now in Hell.The fact that he has done things that have caused him to enter hell, the fact that he has lived his life in gross sin - to the point of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, has preconditioned himself to not repenting in Hell.
You do not explain why the fact that he is in agony and despair would not get him to want to change, to repent and to ask God to help him reform.
Satan – why would he rebel against an omnipotent being?
We could ask the same question of the story in the NT where Satan tempts Jesus in the Desert. Why would Saten attempt to trip up the Son of God, when he had to know that he would lose.
You could indeed and I’d give the same answer – he would not do it – the story cannot be correct if taken literally – a symbolic interpretation would be OK though.
I think I’ll call it a day but a quick comment on how I see our discussion.
**You have faith that what you have been taught about Hell and Satan is true and nothing I say is going to change your mind. When I point out something in the story that is very unlikely you come up with a ‘perhaps the reason is XYZ’ answer even though XYZ is also unlikely. But, as you are sure the story is true – you are sure there is SOME explanation.
On the other hand I just see all the absurdities, and unlikely scenarios etc as a strong reason for rejecting the story and a medieval tale that is unlikely to be true.**
Can we go any further?
Regards
Laurie
J
JRKH
Guest
Or perhaps I’m assuming that I understood your little snippet about “wives don’t got to hell”
Peace
james
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
Good point, I never thought of that.
A
Ahimsa
Guest
Women have been oppressed by men for centuries, wives especially, so I doubt God would send a wife to eternal hell.Or perhaps I’m assuming that I understood your little snippet about “wives don’t got to hell”
Peace
james
J
JRKH
Guest
It is unlikely that we can go much further since you are just as prone to believe as you do even when something “unlikely” is pointed out to you.
It has to do with a difference in our world-views.
I am glad to hear that you would like to believe in God. It at least provides a basis for a possible conversion, if not to christianity, at least to some form of theism.
I freely admit that I don’t have all the answers. No one does on this side of the veil. Not me and not you. The difference is that I started from the position (selfish I admit) that if God exists I don’t want to be on his bad side.
From that common and perfectly normal reaction, I have grown to understand a great deal more about God, His Love, His desires for us.
AND
That He wishes us to Love Him and each other.
That the real beauty is not looking at the idea of punishment (something useful for spiritually immature folks) but to look rather that the Love and the rewards (something more easily seen as we mature spiritually).
I feel sorry for people, believers and non-beleivers alike, who are always looking at the negative, the punishment aspect. It’s a waste of time. It’s like — If your trying to drive somewhere but all you can think about is danger at every turn, terrible accidents, bloody injuries, death and mangled steel. Such thoughts if dwelt upon could incapacitate a person so that they would never drive again.
The normal and healthy approach is to look at the goal, lay our the route, drive carefully and get there safe.
So to with the healthy spiritual life. Believe in God and Concentrate on the Goal (heaven); Lay out the route (Love); Drive carefully (avoid sin); and reach the Goal without fearing a crash (hell).
Note: another imperfect analogy.
Peace
James
M
Marc_Anthony
Guest
You realize that this logic is totally faulty?
Just because women in general (wives specifically) have been oppressed throughout history in no way implies that ALL wives in EVERY situation ever have not sinned badly enough to warrant Hell.
S
simple_soul
Guest
*Dear James,
I think your analogy is beautiful. May I use it?
Peace and God bless you and yours.
*
J
JRKH
Guest
“Wives” don’t go to hell - Evil people go to hell. Gender or marital status during their earthly sojourn is not a determining factor.
Peace
James
J
JRKH
Guest
L
Lightbee
Guest
Check out the article titled “Your touch is Christ’s touch” on page 15 of this:
cg.catholic.org.au/_uploads/nwslt/02425.pdf
I’m really not at all sure if this is true or not, but one of the quotes from the article that really struck me is:
“If someone close to you dies in a state which, externally at least, has him or her at odds with the visible church, our love and forgiveness will continue to bind that person to the Body of Christ and will continue to offer forgivenss to that individual, even after death”
Suggesting that your continued prayers for your loved one may save them, even after death.
What do you think?
cg.catholic.org.au/_uploads/nwslt/02425.pdf
I’m really not at all sure if this is true or not, but one of the quotes from the article that really struck me is:
“If someone close to you dies in a state which, externally at least, has him or her at odds with the visible church, our love and forgiveness will continue to bind that person to the Body of Christ and will continue to offer forgivenss to that individual, even after death”
Suggesting that your continued prayers for your loved one may save them, even after death.
What do you think?
D
djeter
Guest
Laurie wrote to JRKH: “You agree that a maths student who honestly gets his sums wrong is not culpable – so why am I if I am honestly wrong about God. You must understand this – I can no more MAKE myself believe in God than you could make yourself believe in the Loch Ness Monster. How can I be punished for not having a belief that I cannot acquire?”
The math student analogy breaks down because it shows someone who is practicing a skill. Belief in God is a human yearning. At the beginning of his Confessions, Augustine writes, “You have made us for yourself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in you.” This statement is probably more quoted than anything else Augustine wrote, for here he captures a common human experience and the heart of man according to a Christian anthropology. There is no right or wrong here or faith as analogous to a skill, it is who we are.The math student analogy does not apply to belief in God.
dj
0
008
Guest
Hello,
According to me, this hypothetical case is not tangible. If you are in heaven, your wife can’t be in hell. If you love Jesus, Jesus love you too and He also love all the person you love. Don’t you remember what our Lord said to this man who ask to Him :" who is able to do all that You say in order to be saved". And Jesus answers :" that is impossible for men but it is possible for God." If you love God, if you love your wife, God will love your wife : How could it be otherwise?
God bless
C
cargau
Guest
Hi Laurie,
The most important way a husband can love his spouse is to do everything to get her and lead her to heaven. If your wife is in hell, you would have failed to carry out this very important mission.
So, I would ask, are you sure you are in heaven? Maybe you just think you are…Or maybe she’s in heaven and you are in hell but you are being deceived by the evil one. Perhaps, that is why you are so miserable…
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