How could Luther state that God denies the burning of heretics when hell is the eternal fire and Purgatory is the temporal fire?

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Contarini said:
Not what I said.

Hell is the result of the human choice to turn away from God, persisted in up to and in the moment of death. My understanding, which is shared by many Catholic theologians, is the darkness of hell is the “absence” of God (i.e., the damned person’s moral and spiritual estrangement from God) and the fires of hell are the omnipresence of God, which by their own free choice the damned have become unable to experience otherwise than as torment.

I’m not denying physical torment, necessarily. Scripture speaks of the resurrection of the body of both the saved and the damned. What I do deny is that God actively chooses to inflict pain on people in retributive punishment. God desires the salvation of all and His tender mercies are over all His works.

Edwin
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Fair enough then. I don’t take issue with anything you have stated above.
 
rinnie said:
The teaching of the Church is human mind cannot have the mind of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture. If we all had the divine wisdom on that there would be not division in the Church. The Holy Spirt is not one of chaos.
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My friend you have chaos no matter what. therefore it is not proper cause to make dogma ruling out God’s gift of divine wisdom to His child who dilingently seeks him. on any matter. While respecting giftings and offices we must also remember God is not a respecter of persons.
 
Contarini said:
Not what I said.

Hell is the result of the human choice to turn away from God, persisted in up to and in the moment of death. My understanding, which is shared by many Catholic theologians, is the darkness of hell is the “absence” of God (i.e., the damned person’s moral and spiritual estrangement from God) and the fires of hell are the omnipresence of God, which by their own free choice the damned have become unable to experience otherwise than as torment.

I’m not denying physical torment, necessarily. Scripture speaks of the resurrection of the body of both the saved and the damned. What I do deny is that God actively chooses to inflict pain on people in retributive punishment. God desires the salvation of all and His tender mercies are over all His works.

Edwin
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Yes this is true, and the reason we know that God desires us all to be saved is because it was revealed to us and is the true word of God.

Where I do agree with you though is God does inflict pain on people sometimes. Not because he wants to, but because people choose to reject him and his love.

While it is not the Choice of God to separate people from him with their sin, the sin of their own free will, God does punish and we do have to pay for our sins, Rather it be physical or emotional or both.

Where I disagree with you is somehow you are saying by God not inflicting pain to myself, that seems you to be saying God does not punish us.

God does punish us like any Good Father punishes his children, Rather it be physical or emotional its still a type of pain.

Scripture tells us we will be in a temporal fire until the last penny is paid. We see it as a temporal punishment or suffering. IF the punishment does not come from God who does it come from.

Granted the punishment is a gift because it cleans us from sin, and makes us ready for heaven, it is still a punishment and it comes from God.

Only he can understand and know the total reason for the suffering.
 
pocohombre said:
My friend you have chaos no matter what. therefore it is not proper cause to make dogma ruling out God’s gift of divine wisdom to His child who dilingently seeks him. on any matter. While respecting giftings and offices we must also remember God is not a respecter of persons.
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Only God is human and divine. Its as simple as that. Us seeking out God and his love has nothing to do with divine wisdom we have. It is Grace given to us by God.

And although that grace is a free gift and comes from God, it by no means make us divine.
 
Peter_J said:
I’d like to know the answer to that too, seeing as rinnie claims that what she says here represents Catholicism.
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It does simply because it is the truth.

You either accept that the Pope did indeed comment on the statement of Luther as he cannot know the mind of God.

Or you say that the RCC believed that hereitcs should be burned at the stakes.

Because the Pope had personal opinions has nothing to do with the teachings of the RCC. And personal opinions are not teachings of the Church.

Proof is on my side that the Church never taught it, simply because if it did it would make the Pope be in direct conflict with himself.

If he claimed that Heretics being burned was indeed a teaching from the Holy Spirit it would have had to be an infallible teaching, if not he would have put himself in the same light of Luther.

He would say he could read the mind of Christ on a human level, then turn around and condemn Luther for the same thing.

He would not be that stupid, and people would not have been that stupid and blind to it. People and Luther himself would have called him on it.

Evidence is on my side. He could be considered a hypocrite.
 
pocohombre said:
My friend you have chaos no matter what. therefore it is not proper cause to make dogma ruling out God’s gift of divine wisdom to His child who dilingently seeks him. on any matter. While respecting giftings and offices we must also remember God is not a respecter of persons.
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And the bible also disagree with you. We are taught to not use our own pwersonl interpretation of scripture we are taught to follow the teachings of the early Fathers of the Church not our own personal opinion.

God gives us all different gifts. Interpretating the word of God was given only to the Church not humans.

If they were why would we need the Apostles? On Pentecost we would all have had the power of the Holy Spirit and been sapped with the divine knowledge.

We wouldn’t even need the bible. What for if we had divine wisdom?

No Jesus gave us the Church for a reason, one being we NEED it!
 
rinnie said:
Only God is human and divine.
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Well technically only Jesus is human and divine, not the Father or Holy Spirit , they are divine but not human.
Us seeking out God and his love has nothing to do with divine wisdom we have. It is Grace given to us by God.
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So are you saying He is not a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. I am not talking of seeking to be saved, though it happens cause we are drawn, but afterwards, after new birth we certainly “walk” with Him and seek Him on matters.
And although that grace is a free gift and comes from God, it by no means make us divine.
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Having divine wisdom on a matter presumes it is not from the flesh. Having divine wisdom does not mean we are no longer human, for our flesh is His temple.
 
rinnie said:
And the bible also disagree with you. We are taught to not use our own pwersonl interpretation of scripture
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I would be wrong to say that. Where have I said to have our own interpretation ?
we are taught to follow the teachings of the early Fathers of the Church not our own personal opinion.
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You bet, follow the apostles. It is taught that the Holy Spirit will bear witness to “us” the truth of their words, that we now have in writing. Divinely taught, divinely caught.
God gives us all different gifts. Interpretating the word of God was given only to the Church not humans.
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Last I heard the church is made up of humans. But yes, there are giftings and some are better than others in understanding, even teaching scripture. I would not totally inistitutionalize the flow of divine wisdom on scripture, though I would hope whomever your church appoints to teach is gifted.
If they were why would we need the Apostles? On Pentecost we would all have had the power of the Holy Spirit and been sapped with the divine knowledge.
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If I recall apostle means sent one, as in missionary. They were to proclaim the gospel above all else. So you think the gift of the Holy Spirit was only for those apostles at Pentecost ? If you do not have divine knowledge you are not born again, nor saved by any definition. You aren’t saved by the apostles , not even by the Church. Truth must be divinely taught and divinely caught.
We wouldn’t even need the bible. What for if we had divine wisdom?
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Again, you need divine wisdom to understand the bible, or a teacher of it. Divine wisdom helps us understand what the apostles, the Church, our teachers, our parents and scripture teach. This is scriptural, tradition and evidenced in Father writings.
No Jesus gave us the Church for a reason, one being we NEED it!
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That is right, just as we need Scripture. We just disagree exactly how and why we need them .
 
pocohombre said:
Well technically only Jesus is human and divine, not the Father or Holy Spirit , they are divine but not human. So are you saying He is not a rewarder of those that diligently seek Him. I am not talking of seeking to be saved, though it happens cause we are drawn, but afterwards, after new birth we certainly “walk” with Him and seek Him on matters.
Having divine wisdom on a matter presumes it is not from the flesh. Having divine wisdom does not mean we are no longer human, for our flesh is His temple.
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We still cannot say we have the mind of God. If someone has divine wisdom it means something was revealed to them from God. But very few can still claim this.

We were not revealed the word of God from divine wisdom, we were revealed the word and teaching’s from God from humans, and human understanding.

Only very few have the gift of the Holy Spirit to teach and have powers from God to do these things. Like forgive sins in his name, it comes from a Sacrament of Holy Orders. Just because we have the power of the Holy Spirit come upon us at Baptism does not mean we can do what the Apostles did.

So again your def, of divine wisdom and mine are again on complete differents sides of the coin.
 
pocohombre said:
I would be wrong to say that. Where have I said to have our own interpretation ?You bet, follow the apostles. It is taught that the Holy Spirit will bear witness to “us” the truth of their words, that we now have in writing. Divinely taught, divinely caught.

Last I heard the church is made up of humans. But yes, there are giftings and some are better than others in understanding, even teaching scripture. I would not totally inistitutionalize the flow of divine wisdom on scripture, though I would hope whomever your church appoints to teach is gifted.
If I recall apostle means sent one, as in missionary. They were to proclaim the gospel above all else. So you think the gift of the Holy Spirit was only for those apostles at Pentecost ? If you do not have divine knowledge you are not born again, nor saved by any definition. You aren’t saved by the apostles , not even by the Church. Truth must be divinely taught and divinely caught.

Again, you need divine wisdom to understand the bible, or a teacher of it. Divine wisdom helps us understand what the apostles, the Church, our teachers, our parents and scripture teach. This is scriptural, tradition and evidenced in Father writings.
That is right, just as we need Scripture. We just disagree exactly how and why we need them .
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Once again I disagree with you, you claim you have to have divine wisdom to understand what the Apostles teach, etc, I agree with that as far as being able to teach and preach it, but not to understand it. The Church is who teaches it and preaches the good news and I do not have to have divine wisdom to understand. I can understand what the Church teaches on a human level. But not everything.

If I had Divine Wisdom I would understand everything the Church teaches and I do not,

I cannot say I have a complete understanding of the Trinity. I believe in it, and know God is God in three persons, yet one God, My Humam understanding does not quite grasp that. But at times I feel I am close. If had had divine wisdom I would completely grasp it.

I don’t understand why Jesus had to suffer, and why suffering is also a gift, Usually after suffering I do see what was accomplished, but don’t quite grasp it. If I had a divine mind it would be simple to me.

WHy Jeuss had to die on the cross, I knew to save us, but why a horrible death? Only God can answer that. Or maybe you, since you claim a divine mind.

Maybe you can clear up these things for me.😃
 
rinnie said:
On my last thread which was derailed over and over by a teaching of Luther that was corrected by the RCC.

The question was # 33 in his diet of worms.
  1. The burning of heretics go against the will of the Spirit.
The Church has been condemned for correcting him on this, and as the truth always comes out, the Church was correct and Luther changed his mind.:rolleyes:

Okay Pope Leo X condemned Luther for saying burning heretics was against the will of the Spirit.

When he did this, the Church was accused of saying that they believed the burning of heretics was indeed what God wanted them to do. If he did, it would be Church dogma and practiced today.

To get to the official teaching, and then my thoughts I will start here.

The Pope said it was wrong for an ordinary human to claim to know the will of God. Luther changed his mind, and in 1531 began to advocate the death penalty. Go figure:blush:

He thought it should be a capital offense to deny the resurrection or reality of heaven and hell.

Here was my question, how could he state that God denys the burning of heretics when hell is the eternal fires.

And Purgatory are the temporal fires.

How could he accept the eternal fires of hell, but yet say it goes against the will of the spirit???

I still don’t get it.
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In the Papal encyclical “Exsurge Domine,” Pope Leo X says the following:

In virtue of our pastoral office committed to us by the divine favor we can under no circumstances tolerate or overlook any longer the pernicious poison of the above errors without disgrace to the Christian religion and injury to orthodox faith. Some of these errors we have decided to include in the present document; their substance is as follows:
…
33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

So, Pope Leo X condemns as an error the idea that the burning and execution of heretics is against the will of the Holy Spirit.

So does this amount to the idea that God is perfectly fine with heretics being executed? It would have been nice if the Pope would have commented more on why the 95 Theses were errors.
 
Shiranui117 said:
In the Papal encyclical “Exsurge Domine,” Pope Leo X says the following:

In virtue of our pastoral office committed to us by the divine favor we can under no circumstances tolerate or overlook any longer the pernicious poison of the above errors without disgrace to the Christian religion and injury to orthodox faith. Some of these errors we have decided to include in the present document; their substance is as follows:
…
33. That heretics be burned is against the will of the Spirit.

So, Pope Leo X condemns as an error the idea that the burning and execution of heretics is against the will of the Holy Spirit.

So does this amount to the idea that God is perfectly fine with heretics being executed? It would have been nice if the Pope would have commented more on why the 95 Theses were errors.
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You put that together with what the code of Cannon Law states.

It would be clearly inappropriate for the Church as a Spiritual Society to excute criminals. But the state is a different Society.

Church Doctrine is the same as always The State has the right to impose the death penalty on persons who commited severe crimes. The Chruch position is it not be invoked because the blaance does more harm then good.

So as I stated Luther was not condemned for what he said, but for trying to speak for the Divine with a human mind.

All I can say is there are times humans were burned at the stakes, even our own Saints. And all I can think of is how scripture tells us for those who are one of Christs. the burning at the stakes will be a warming conforting for those who love Christ and are inocent of any crime. The human mind cannot understand this nor ever will. It comes from believing and faith in God.🤷 Can this be possuble? A human being burned at a stake and while in a true physical fire, be free from pain, and it be a Joy and lovely experience from God. God said it can.

Also to add from my previous post, The Pope or Bishops never use the human mind in speaking for God. it comes from the Divine MInd of God.

Although God works through humans in every way in this world for different reasons does not way mean they know the mind of God in all things. Only what he chooses to reveal by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We are told to listen to the Church because that is where the pilar of truth is found. Not in human mind.
 
AbideWithMe said:
Rinnie–I did not read the other thread where this started. You said earlier that this (above) was the reason that the Pope objected to what Luther said—an objection we can see in Exsurge Domini. Please clarify: are you saying that you have an explicit statement to that effect, of someone speaking for the Pope, saying this in direct connection to Exsurge Domini? Or this this something you’re surmising from other or later Catholic statements about other issues?

About a human speaking for the Holy Spirit—well, sure we believe that can be possible. Look at all the Jewish prophets. There were also people in the NT who were given the gift of prophecy, which doesn’t just apply to foretelling events. I believe the CC does not teach that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ended with apostolic times. It would not be entirely impossible that, in that instance, the Holy Spirit was indeed speaking through Luther.
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This is indeed what I found that he was speaking about the comment of Luther speaking for God.

A human speaking for God on something that was revealed by the Holy Spirit in no way means the human has the mind of God, So I cannot agree with what you are saying. It js not a human speaking for the Holy Spirit, it is a Human person speaking what was revealed by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit speaks for himself and chooses whom he chooses to reveal himself to.

If you speak for me, how can you know for sure you know what I am saying or mean. If you repeat what I say, or read what I ask you to say, then yes you can speak for me. But you cannot speak for me by yourself, and know for sure what I want said. Only I can tell you.

Also as stated previously the Code of Cannon law states its never been the teaching of the RCC.

People refuse to see why the Church was brought in to help many get out of heresy. They only dwell on the ones the Church could not help or protect.

The State was not qualified to judge what heresy was, so at least if you were a heretic you can a fair trial by a person who knew the word of God. If the Church is guilty for telling the truth then so be it.

If a person was indeed a heretic and refused to repent, the state law was death. That is blamed on the Church and officials.
 
rinnie said:
This is indeed what I found that he was speaking about the comment of Luther speaking for God.
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But where did you find this? James Akin? With all due respect, he’s not a scholar of the period.

Can you point me to any reputable historical source saying that this is likely to have been what Pope Leo meant?

Edwin
 
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