How could Luther state that God denies the burning of heretics when hell is the eternal fire and Purgatory is the temporal fire?

[rinnie]

A sovereign God distributing righteous judgment by striking people dead is far different than the State using judicial process, torture, and, finally, execution to punish so called “heretics.” Neither the State or the Church is God. And given the track record of both institutions throughout history, neither one inspires much confidence when it comes to “justly” persecuting individuals for their beliefs.

Heretics were not put to death because they denied or violated the teaching of the Holy Spirit. They were put to death because they defied human authority that placed itself in the position to determine the will of God. It was human government that put them to death. Not God.

I agree with you on a few things here. As far as Christ and the RCC being one I have to disagree with you. Christ taught us he and his Church are one. He compared that to marriage he is the bride and the Church is the bridegroom. So on that I disagree with you. When the Church speaks in the voice of God from the H.S. it does speak for God.

With that said I agree the unless the Church was speaking in the voice of the H.S. it cannot know what God agrees or disagrees with.

The Church never spoke in the name of the H.S. and teaches it was not the choice of the Church to kill heretics.

The CHurch was called to speak to someone to determine if they were heretics or were not. They did have that authority then, and they do have that authority today.

With that said, the whole point of this thread is because the Church was called to judge if a person was or was not a heretic it is their fault personally for determining that.

That is what I disagree with, and I do feel the Priests and Bishops have the right and education to know if a person is a heretic, Then and now.

If the Pope feel a person is a heretic they will do now what they did then, Talk to them, offer then forgivenes by the Sacraments and bring the sheep back into the fold.

If they refuse to repent and spread false teachings or obey the CHurch they can be excommunicated.

 

[rinnie]

Is there a difference between God striking Annanias down and Peter ordering a fire, tie up Annanias and burn him for lying ? Moses dared not strike down rebels but put them to the test before God and His judgements. What Annanias did was not heretical,but sin is sin and is ugly and is infectious. Let’s kill anyone who sins ?

So what you are saying is blasphemy is not heretic?

 

[rinnie]

Jesus did not teach that anyone should be killed for dissent (however errant it is).

Really? so then anyone who sins against the teaching of Christ and his Church rather they commit adultery and refuse to repent, refuse to believe, steal, kill etc dissent from the true teachings of faith will have eternal life in heaven and not be sent into the etermal fires of hell?

Sin is not death of the soul?

Boy thats nice to know.

So the devil who refused to obey will also not have eternal death, because Jesus does not teach anyone should die?

When Adam and Eve ate the apple, when God told them if they did they would die, Jesus did not agree with this?

 

[Peter_J]

Surely God’s actions are far different than human actions. God knows the heart of man.The fires of hell can in no way be compared to the burning of “heretics” by a secular power (whether that be the state acting in the interest of the Church or the Church acting in its capacity as a political entity). The Holy Spirit killing a person because they lied to Him can in no way be compared to human beings killing other human beings because they differ over matters of religion.

I find it odd that Christianity, as a religion so persecuted in its early years, can fall so easily into a fleshly system of using violence, persecution, and the power of the State to enforce capital punishment in order to prop up a monopoly on religious authority. This is so far from the actions of Jesus Christ on this earth and just demonstrates the extent to which all Christians can be deceived into relying on carnal “weapons of warfare.” Far better for us to realize that the forces we fight against are not flesh and blood, but spiritual. Our weapons of spiritual warfare likewise must be spiritual.

Well said Itwin! (Are you sure you aren’t Catholic? )

 

[Kliska]

Really? so then anyone who sins against the teaching of Christ and his Church rather they commit adultery and refuse to repent, refuse to believe, steal, kill etc dissent from the true teachings of faith will have eternal life in heaven and not be sent into the etermal fires of hell?

Sin is not death of the soul?

Boy thats nice to know.

So the devil who refused to obey will also not have eternal death, because Jesus does not teach anyone should die?

When Adam and Eve ate the apple, when God told them if they did they would die, Jesus did not agree with this?

What happened to letting the wheat and tares grow side by side so we don’t rip up the wrong one, and letting God and His angels take care of it directly, as promised in scripture?

I too see plainly in scripture that Jesus never taught that one human, no matter title or claimed authority, should kill another human for disagreeing about the faith. Burning heretics also has the downside of cutting off any chance of repentance during their lifetime, and that is the only time one can repent unto salvation. The Holy Spirit has shown in scripture how He can take care of anyone that needs to be removed from the scene, He acted directly without the aid of any human, even the Apostles.

 

[Peter_J]

Really? so then anyone who sins against the teaching of Christ and his Church rather they commit adultery and refuse to repent, refuse to believe, steal, kill etc dissent from the true teachings of faith will have eternal life in heaven and not be sent into the etermal fires of hell?

Sin is not death of the soul?

Boy thats nice to know.

So the devil who refused to obey will also not have eternal death, because Jesus does not teach anyone should die?

When Adam and Eve ate the apple, when God told them if they did they would die, Jesus did not agree with this?

I’m going to go ahead and second Kliska’s response, just above (yes I do realize that he/she is protestant). I have a lot of respect for traditionalist Catholics, but quite frankly as I’ve been reading various statements that you have posted here, I’ve become more and more convinced that those statements don’t even deserve to be called “traditionalist Catholic”.

 

[ltwin]

I agree with you on a few things here. As far as Christ and the RCC being one I have to disagree with you. Christ taught us he and his Church are one. He compared that to marriage he is the bride and the Church is the bridegroom. So on that I disagree with you. When the Church speaks in the voice of God from the H.S. it does speak for God.

With that said I agree the unless the Church was speaking in the voice of the H.S. it cannot know what God agrees or disagrees with.

The Church never spoke in the name of the H.S. and teaches it was not the choice of the Church to kill heretics.

The CHurch was called to speak to someone to determine if they were heretics or were not. They did have that authority then, and they do have that authority today.

With that said, the whole point of this thread is because the Church was called to judge if a person was or was not a heretic it is their fault personally for determining that.

That is what I disagree with, and I do feel the Priests and Bishops have the right and education to know if a person is a heretic, Then and now.

If the Pope feel a person is a heretic they will do now what they did then, Talk to them, offer then forgivenes by the Sacraments and bring the sheep back into the fold.

If they refuse to repent and spread false teachings or obey the CHurch they can be excommunicated.

I think you are overlooking a very important element to all of this. That is that at the time heretics were being executed the Church (whether we’re talking about the Catholic Church or an established Protestant Church) was intimately tied into the interests of maintaining State power.

In that context. people accused of heresy are never simply religious rebels but are political agents threatening the existing power structure of which ecclesiastical power is one crucial component. In so far as Christian churches collude with the State to persecute those who don’t “fall in line,” I believe they commit a grievous sin.

Jesus never sanctioned colluding with or relying on civil powers to enforce the doctrine and discipline of the Church. That’s what Jesus’ enemies did, but its not something that Christians should do. The Church should not be unequally yoked to a godless civil power that only has as its interest the preservation of its own authority.

 

[rinnie]

What happened to letting the wheat and tares grow side by side so we don’t rip up the wrong one, and letting God and His angels take care of it directly, as promised in scripture?

I too see plainly in scripture that Jesus never taught that one human, no matter title or claimed authority, should kill another human for disagreeing about the faith. Burning heretics also has the downside of cutting off any chance of repentance during their lifetime, and that is the only time one can repent unto salvation. The Holy Spirit has shown in scripture how He can take care of anyone that needs to be removed from the scene, He acted directly without the aid of any human, even the Apostles.

This is true the Holy Spirt can act without the aid of human Apostles, but can also act in direct aid of the Apostles, which we call the Church.

Let me ask you something, more in the context of what I am thinking

We know that God gave us all free will. Although he gave it to us, his will is for us to accept him obey his commamds and have eternal life in him through his Son. Thats a no brainer. Although free will can go against the will of God by rejecting him, it was still HIS will to give us OUR will by giving us FREE will.

Now with that said do you believe that humam will can overcome the will of God when free will is excluded.

To make it simple someone comes to my house right now and shoots me in the head. Human will indeed went against the will of God we all agree here I hope. BUT here is the big BUT do you believe that God has the final say om if that persom dies or not?

Did God not say her knew the day we would come into the world and he knows the day we will leave?

So to say that the person who killed me acted in the will of God is completely wrong, God is plain in his teaching. But to say my death on that day was against the will of God, is that true to say?

From my point of view no matter what God allows things that the humam mind cannot understand no matter what.

ANd God can take a horrible act and with his love and mercy find some beauty in it no matter how ugly.

Like the death of his own Son. Jesus came here to die, Although it was not against the will of the Jews to kill him they had no power over him or God.

Like Jesus said time after time, and ever told Peter when Peter thinking in human terms wanted to save Jesus from death, I came to do not my will but the will of my Father.

With that said Pilate said do you not see that I have the POWER for you to live or die. Jesus never said no uou do not. Jesus you have no power that was not given to you by my Father.

So while we can say killing an inocent Man was indeed wrong, and no one had the right to do it, by law it was allowed.

Do you believe that the death of Jesus was against the will of the Holy Spirit? Or did God allow this?

Because look how many times they could have killed Jesus, but he said it is not yet my time. Jesus knew no matter what the trial he was do die so we could have eternal life.

So back to the beginning how can God know the day we are going to die, if its against his will? I am by no means saying evil cannot play a role in how its done, but who has the last call God or Humans?

 

[rinnie]

I think you are overlooking a very important element to all of this. That is that at the time heretics were being executed the Church (whether we’re talking about the Catholic Church or an established Protestant Church) was intimately tied into the interests of maintaining State power.

In that context. people accused of heresy are never simply religious rebels but are political agents threatening the existing power structure of which ecclesiastical power is one crucial component. In so far as Christian churches collude with the State to persecute those who don’t “fall in line,” I believe they commit a grievous sin.

Jesus never sanctioned colluding with or relying on civil powers to enforce the doctrine and discipline of the Church. That’s what Jesus’ enemies did, but its not something that Christians should do. The Church should not be unequally yoked to a godless civil power that only has as its interest the preservation of its own authority.

I am not overlooking that at all. And I am not saying I believe that Jesus relying on anyone to enforce the doctrine of the RCC. He gave us free will to reject or accept him

I am getting back to what Luther stated. That the killing of heretics goes against the will of the Spirit.

How can anyone know what the will of the Spirit is unless it is revealed to it by the Holy Sprit.

I am not saying killing is Gods will. No one ever has. But who can say that God does find justification in killing sometimes. Or rather maybe justification isn’t the word but alllows it for some reason we cannot understand.

While the RCC can speak in the name of God on certain things that are revealed, it cannot speak on what is not revealed.

Can the Church say they don’t have the authority to kill heretics? Yes because that decision was not given to them.

Can the Church say it went against Gods will and Roman Law trumped Gods will, no they cannot.

All the Church said is they have power that is given to them by God. And the power to kill heretics is not one of them.

Do they have the power to determine a heretic in the RCC. Yep!

 

[rinnie]

I think you are overlooking a very important element to all of this. That is that at the time heretics were being executed the Church (whether we’re talking about the Catholic Church or an established Protestant Church) was intimately tied into the interests of maintaining State power.

In that context. people accused of heresy are never simply religious rebels but are political agents threatening the existing power structure of which ecclesiastical power is one crucial component. In so far as Christian churches collude with the State to persecute those who don’t “fall in line,” I believe they commit a grievous sin.

Jesus never sanctioned colluding with or relying on civil powers to enforce the doctrine and discipline of the Church. That’s what Jesus’ enemies did, but its not something that Christians should do. The Church should not be unequally yoked to a godless civil power that only has as its interest the preservation of its own authority.

By the way your context is perfect in this, Was not the death of Christ also Political. But did it go against the will of the Holy Spirit.

And the Church agrees with you also on it does not feel it can rely on civil power to enforce Church doctrine, if it was Church doctrine it would still be doing it.

But lets get back to the question, Can anyone say no matter what the reasons of a death or who is involved, or what evil motives on involved, can they claim the Spirit and Mind of God? Thats the question that continues to get lost.

SO you can state this either.

I believe that I know the mind of the Holy Spirit and Roman Law went against the will of God and God had no controll.

Or you could say while I personally disagree with Roman Law I believe that no matter what Roman Law is based on human reasoning and Human reasoning cannot know the reasoning of the Holy Spirit.

But as I can only use Humam Reasonimg I cannot use Divine Reasoning and claim to know the mind of God.

 

[House_Harkonnen]

Really? so then anyone who sins against the teaching of Christ and his Church rather they commit adultery and refuse to repent, refuse to believe, steal, kill etc dissent from the true teachings of faith will have eternal life in heaven and not be sent into the etermal fires of hell?

Sin is not death of the soul?

Boy thats nice to know.

So the devil who refused to obey will also not have eternal death, because Jesus does not teach anyone should die?

When Adam and Eve ate the apple, when God told them if they did they would die, Jesus did not agree with this?

Really? so then anyone who sins against the teaching of Christ and his Church rather they commit adultery and refuse to repent, refuse to believe, steal, kill etc dissent from the true teachings of faith will have eternal life in heaven and not be sent into the etermal fires of hell?

No, they will go to hell if they don’t repent. Yet God never gave anyone the authority to kill a person for their disagreement.

So the devil who refused to obey will also not have eternal death, because Jesus does not teach anyone should die?

No. Yet he doesn’t ask any of his followers to seek out disagreers and kill them in excruciating ways.

Do you believe that your Church should still have the right to deliver dissenters to the state for a prolonged and excruciating execution?

 

[rinnie]

No, they will go to hell if they don’t repent. Yet God never gave anyone the authority to kill a person for their disagreement.

No. Yet he doesn’t ask any of his followers to seek out disagreers and kill them in excruciating ways.

Do you believe that your Church should still have the right to deliver dissenters to the state for a prolonged and excruciating execution?

My Church never did that. My Church had and has authority from God to protect the teachings of the Church and define who is and is not a heretic. And yes that authority still exists today. If someone is a heretic the Pope can excommunicate them and still does.

My Church has never had authority from God to execute anyone. If it did it would still be doing it.

Show me where the RCC ever taught that Roman Law was the teachings of the Holy Spirit?

 

[ltwin]

By the way your context is perfect in this, Was not the death of Christ also Political. But did it go against the will of the Holy Spirit.

And the Church agrees with you also on it does not feel it can rely on civil power to enforce Church doctrine, if it was Church doctrine it would still be doing it.

But lets get back to the question, Can anyone say no matter what the reasons of a death or who is involved, or what evil motives on involved, can they claim the Spirit and Mind of God? Thats the question that continues to get lost.

SO you can state this either.

I believe that I know the mind of the Holy Spirit and Roman Law went against the will of God and God had no controll.

Or you could say while I personally disagree with Roman Law I believe that no matter what Roman Law is based on human reasoning and Human reasoning cannot know the reasoning of the Holy Spirit.

But as I can only use Humam Reasonimg I cannot use Divine Reasoning and claim to know the mind of God.

Yes, I think we can say that executing heretics is against the will of the Holy Spirit. The Church was never given the authority to kill heretics. The Church was never told to enlist the power of the State to punish those who disagree with it.

The Church should, however, be willing to suffer persecution and death for the sake of the gospel of Christ. It shouldn’t inflict persecution on others, however.

 

[rinnie]

So you’re saying that the issue of burning heretics was not the issue at hand, but rather that Luther thought he had the authority to make a judgement call on what is the will of the Spirit?

Only about everyday for almost a month or so.

Many Popes actually agree with Luther on his issue. Many still do. But it all on human terms.

Luther was not a heretic for his human thinking, Luther was a heretic for claiming his Human thinking was Divine.

That is why he recanted.

What the Church was teaching and saying and let me make this CLEAR once and for all. At least try

The Church said no human mind can speak for the Holy Spirit. That is why he was wrong.

Not because his thoughts were right or wrong. But because he exercised the voice of God without the Power of the Holy Spirit to do so.

Its quite simple really

 

[M1Garand]

While we are all continuing to beat this dead horse I assume that you protestants and lutherans do understand you burned heretics as well as witches-- right you do understand that? Surely your propaganda is not so complete as to claim this is a Catholic only sin.

 

[rinnie]

Yes, I think we can say that executing heretics is against the will of the Holy Spirit. The Church was never given the authority to kill heretics. The Church was never told to enlist the power of the State to punish those who disagree with it.

The Church should, however, be willing to suffer persecution and death for the sake of the gospel of Christ. It shouldn’t inflict persecution on others, however.

Well then you are claiming to have the power of the Holy Spirit. Which goes against the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

God said no human thinking can know the mind of Christ.

You are free to think what you like, but where is your authority to speak for God. We cannot say what the will of the Spirit is. Luther recanted! You may want to leave the thinking up to God and let him decide!

 

[rinnie]

While we are all continuing to beat this dead horse I assume that you protestants and lutherans do understand you burned heretics as well as witches-- right you do understand that? Surely your propaganda is not so complete as to claim this is a Catholic only sin.

While I am not trying to defend human sin on either sides. What I am trying to do is show the RCC has not taught what it is being accused of teaching.

Burning of heretics was never a Church doctrine, which it was accused of.\

But by condemning Luther for his statements not because of his thoughts but his claiming to know the throught of Christ.

I truly just want this truth revealed. Thats my intention here.

Really the true question was showing RCC authority and how we can know for sure,and how others don’t have nor claim it.

BUt that went south real fast. By accusing the Church falsely.

 

[pocohombre]

So what you are saying is blasphemy is not heretic?

The “the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God” is the former
“someone who believes or teaches something that goes against accepted or official beliefs” is the latter per websters dictionary. They can overlap, for Christ I think was accused of both somewhat.

 

[pocohombre]

Well then you are claiming to have the power of the Holy Spirit. Which goes against the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

God said no human thinking can know the mind of Christ.

You are free to think what you like, but where is your authority to speak for God. We cannot say what the will of the Spirit is. Luther recanted! You may want to leave the thinking up to God and let him decide!

The underlined is interesting cause that is what Moses did with the rebels. The western world church certainly for a long season decided for themselves on how to deal with "rebels’/heretics.

 

[Brendan_64]

He is not talking about hell. He is talking about fires kindled by men, in this world.

And maybe he had a point. There was quite a lot wrong with how the Church was operating at the time. The issue with Luther isn’t that he criticised the Church, but that he chose to leave the Church and do so from the outside. Selling indulgences, burning heretics, how can we argue that these were right and proper. Pope Benedict himself has spoken in positive terms about some of Luther’s core theological arguments.

If Luther had stayed within the Church and fought his corner, we would be looking back on him, and many of his ideas in a positive light.