How could Mary be sinless when she herself proclaims God as her Saviour in Scripture?

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Well, God is creator, redeemer and sanctifier and all having those unique roles in three seperate persons coming together as one unified God., but my point is that God is Trinity and if Mary is plainly the mother of God, then she would have to be the mother of the Trinity as well and we know that this isn’t true. There has to be a distinction on which person of God she is the mother of. This is where it is so helpful to use the word “incarnate”.
Oh, but please show us in the bible where the word “trinity” appears and where it explicitly teaches that God is Trinity. And since drawing conclusions from scripture and basing once beliefs on traditions is not sufficient, you are limited to just quoting scriptures that specifically state your belief that God is Trinity.

The doctrine of the Trinity took it’s present form in 325 at the Council of Nicea, which set out to officially define the relationship of the Son to the Father, in response to the controversial teachings of Arius. Led by bishop Athanasius, the council established the doctrine of the Trinity as orthodoxy and condemned Arius’ teaching that Christ was the first creation of God. The creed adopted by the council described Christ as "God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (homoousios) with the Father-- this is part of what is called the Nicene creed, which is repeated even to this day during Catholic Mass.
 
Again, fallacy of division: assuming that what is true of the whole is true of each constituent part. If “The world is a prisoner of sin” applies to Mary’s sinfulness, then ipso facto, the plants and animals and various non-living things are in the world, that also makes the plants and animals and every non-living object sinners as well…and saying so is just as absurd as drawing a conclusion that Mary is a sinner from this phrase.

Now go back and read all my previous posts and please explain to me how my interpretations are incorrect. Proposing new fallacious arguments without addressing the other previous arguments and demonstrating from scripture how they are wrong is a waste of my time.

Jhn 8:32 has nothing to do with proving your argument.
You go, JonathonofOhio. I like your deft spotting of illogical arguements. While I enjoy your responses, I doubt that those who only list bible quotations as an arguement, will ever stop to think about what we’re trying to explain.

Hail Mary, Ark of the New and Everlasting Covenant. 🙂

Glennonite
 
mardela, and the other Protestants here. If you don’t already realize, Catholics and Orthodox (please correct me if I am wrong, I am not so well versed in Orthodox stuff) view Scripture a lot differently than you do.

Most Catholics here realize that for you, Scripture is all that is, and all that one needs. For us, it isn’t so. We used Scripture and Tradition. So if you ask where the Immaculate Conception is in the Bible, or the Assumption, or anything else, we will tell you that, Scripture implies it, and the rest is from Tradition. Both are equally important. Without Tradidtion, there would be no Bible. Without the Bible, we wouldn’t have the written Word of God.

If you really want to know the Catholic position, put yourself in our shoes of viewing Scripture and Tradidtion. Then things will make sense. You don’t have to agree, but please understand.

In Christ through Mary,
Nevermore
Well said. If we can’t see that we’re each reading from two somewhat different playbooks, then we’ll keep riding this endless merry-go-round.

Catholics have the Magisterium, (which never contradicts scripture) and scripture. All others have only scripture, (that’s why they call it, “sola scriptura”) which is our scripture in the first place!

Thanks, Nevermore

Glennonite
 
Have some mercy on this poor person who has only bravely stood by their convictions will you? It’s like one person here has an opinion which may be contrary to Catholic doctrine and they get attacked by a pack of wild dogs over it. Sheesh.
You are now simply appealing to pity. Demonstrating from scripture, using reason and logic and correcting you when you are obviously wrong is not an attack on your person. You posted a question, the question was answered. It was asked that we further clarify our answer and that was provided. When the proof was provided, which is self evident, it was rejected out of doggedness, not with reason or logic. More fallacious and off-topic arguments were posted instead and soon arugmentum ad nauseum set in.

You clearly did not post this thread to actually learn anything. You simply posted it to get Catholics to question their beliefs. If there was any attack, it was on your end, not ours.
 
I’m saying that calling Mary the mother of God is not possible. God is Trinity would you not agree? If mary is the mother of God, then she would be the mother of the Trinity. This is NOT possible. Mary is not the creator of diety.
The Trinity is One God And Three Divine Persons, Rolla, seperate yet of one substance, a profound mystery; just as the Incarnation of Jesus, we are speaking of is.

"If the Lord is with her,as Gabriel said in his message from God, why then are so many people against her "?

God Bless
:coffee:
 
Your condescent is not taken kindly nor is it accurate. You are well aware that Mary is the mother of God made incarnate. Jesus Christ our savior. She is not the mother of God the creator or God the sanctifier. Can you prove that to be untrue? I think not…
What “exactly” is Mary than? The Word became Flesh…and that Flesh was Marys Human Nature combined with Gods Divine Nature …called the Hypostatic Union. Thus Jesus Christ.

The Trinity is ONE PERSON not three which existed from before Jesus Christs birth as per scripture Right? So Christ dies on the Cross now the Human Nature enters into the equation of the Trinity…Right? So since in Luke, Mary is the MOTHER OF THE LORD who “is” GOD. And the Trinity is "ONE not three which only Christ shares a bond with Mary. Well you tell me how Mary is Not the Mother of God the Father? Because it seems we have a fundemantal issue here.

So first question is if Mary indeed conceived Jesus Christ with Sin, then the Trinity now has Sin? Without a doubt, and Christs purpose…“well Gods plan for mankind” would have been in vain. I don’t believe God made the same Adam and Eve error do you? I’m positive he conceived this plan shortly after Eve, and the plan was Jesus and Mary.

If Mary conceived with a nature of Sin what is the purpose of Jesus Christ on the Cross to redeem? Its a contradiction which cannot be true. It cannot nor ever was possible for God to Sin which are the very commandments he told YOU not to do. Are you thus saying God is a Hypocrite? So how could God be born into sin? Seems we are forgetting the Ark of the OT. Mary would be the Ark of the NT which cannot be in a state of Sin. Sorry but theory is lacking in theology and thought of from a pure human aspect without the spiritual aspect taking into consideration at all.

The baby Mary gave birth to was both fully God and fully man. The necessity of affirming this often misunderstood term is to protect the full deity and unified person of Christ. He was not a human that God made and then was indwelt by God’s Spirit, but Jesus was God from His conception, and thus was God when He was born.

It can be said that Mary gave birth to God because the deity and humanity of Christ were metaphysically unified, and thus the God-man was born out of Mary’s womb. The hypostatic union. Fully Divine, Fully Human.

It must be understood that the terms “Father” and “Son” in contradistinction to one another are first introduced in scripture in the context of the incarnation. Christ is God manifest in the flesh. He is fully God and fully man. He had a human body and a human mind, but the humanity of Christ was God’s humanity. God did not merely assume the form of man. He actually became man. He was born of a woman in space and time. Inserting at this point the concept of one person of the Trinity became man is an anachronism in that it argues back from the Greek philosophy of the Church Father’s to the scriptures. The scriptures never introduce the concept of the Trinity. The Trinity is read back into scriptures. And God could NOT be born of Sin.

Therefore, when in scripture Jesus refers to His Father, he is referring to God in his transcendence. When the scriptures speak of the Son, they are referring to God manifest in the flesh. We must believe that the Father refers to the One God of scripture in the same way that the Holy Spirit refers to the Spirit of the One God. Any backward interpretation of these words is to do injustice to the radical monotheism of Scripture and is the result of faulty hermeneutics.

Peace.
 
Mother of us all.

How could a little Jewish girl of about 15 years of age become the Mother of GOD who created her?
Jesus Christ is one person who possesses two natures. He has a Divine nature and a human nature. He is not a Divine person AND a human person, as that would make Him two persons.
A person receives his nature from his father. His Father’s nature is Divine.
Therefore, He is also Divine, which makes Him a Divine person.
A person possesses a nature. A nature does not possess a person.
Nature describes what a person can do, but the person does it.
Mothers give birth to totally complete persons, each with a nature. Never does a mother give birth to a nature alone.
Natures do not have mothers, persons do.
Therefore, Mary gave birth to the person of Jesus Christ, who is a Divine person, thus making her the Mother of GOD.

This is shown in Scripture:
John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with GOD, and the Word was GOD.”
and taken together with…
John 1:14, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.”

thecatholictreasurechest.com/teach.htm
 
Well i never said i was a Christian or anything.

It’s posted that I’m a Believer in Christ.

Just by you posting what you did you have proven to everybody that you Hold onto the Catholic teachings more than you trust in our Lord Jesus Christ teachings.

My postings in the name of Jesus Christ has touched somebodies heart. They are searching for the answers.

Mat 7:7 "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you
Deu 4:29 But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Jer 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
Where do you think Catholic teachings come from??? do you know???
 
The difference in that is, when we ask somebody to pray for us they are alive and when they do pray, they are directing their prayers to Jesus Christ.

Mat 18:20 For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

There are many examples in the Bible of how we ask people to pray for us but in the Bible they are referring to people that were alive at the time. for example in the New Testament it is not written to pray to moses, or enoch or elisha. The other thing is we don’t pray to our friends but for them. We can’t ask the dead to intercede for us. Jesus is alive and more importantly God said to pray to God the Father, approach God the Father with boldness through his mediator his intercede Jesus Christ his Son.
So here is where you answer the question and don’t even know it.
Those who are in heaven with Christ are alive in Him are they not. And when we pray and ask the Blessed Mother to pray for us to Christ our Lord we are doing the very thing you state in this opening sentence.
 
You want to know why I am stubborn and won’t debate?

Deu 8:19 If you ever forget the LORD your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed.
Deu 11:16 Be careful, or you will be enticed to turn away and worship other gods and bow down to them.
Deu 18:20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

I Fear God.
Because you cannot think beyond the boundaries of a book, a book by the way that you fallibly and consistently misinterpret and take out of context 🤷
 
Thanks to all who participated in this debate.
This thread is now closed.
 
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