How could the first Pentecost have been on a Sunday?

[rstrats]

jcrichton,
re: “The Church transferred the Sabbath obligation to Sunday [1st day of the week] because it is the Lord’s Day:”

Perhaps; just as long as it’s understood that nowhere in scripture is the 1st day of the week ever referred to as the “Lord’s Day”.

 

[jcrichton]

jcrichton,
re: “The Church transferred the Sabbath obligation to Sunday [1st day of the week] because it is the Lord’s Day:”

Perhaps; just as long as it’s understood that nowhere in scripture is the 1st day of the week ever referred to as the “Lord’s Day”.

I am not stating that Scriptures calls the 1st day of the week the ***Day of the Lord ***(which is prophetic for Judgment Day); I am saying that the Apostles gathered together, broke Bread, and Worshiped on the 1st day of the week because Jesus’ Resurrection was on the first day of the week.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[rstrats]

jcrichton,
re: “I am not stating that Scriptures calls the 1st day of the week the Day of the Lord…”

But if by “Sunday” you mean the first day of the week, then you did call it the “Lord’s Day”.

re: “I am saying that the Apostles gathered together, broke Bread, and Worshiped on the 1st day of the week because Jesus’ Resurrection was on the first day of the week”.

Actually, as far as the Bible is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a celebration, worship service or day of rest. The Acts reference has them together because Paul happened to be in town and he apparently wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The breaking of bread mentioned (even if it were referring to the Lord’s Supper) had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread every day. And nowhere does scripture ever say that anyone gathered on the first day of the week in recognition of the resurrection.

 

[jcrichton]

jcrichton,
re: “I am not stating that Scriptures calls the 1st day of the week the Day of the Lord…”

But if by “Sunday” you mean the first day of the week, then you did call it the “Lord’s Day”.

re: “I am saying that the Apostles gathered together, broke Bread, and Worshiped on the 1st day of the week because Jesus’ Resurrection was on the first day of the week”.

Actually, as far as the Bible is concerned, there are only two times mentioned with regard to anybody getting together on the first (day) of the week - John 20:19 and Acts 20:7. There is never any mention of them ever again being together on the first. The John reference has them together in a closed room after the crucifixion because they were afraid of their fellow Jews. Nothing is said about a celebration, worship service or day of rest. The Acts reference has them together because Paul happened to be in town and he apparently wanted to talk to them before he had to leave again. The breaking of bread mentioned (even if it were referring to the Lord’s Supper) had nothing to do with placing a special emphasis on the first (day) because Acts 2:46 says that they broke bread every day. And nowhere does scripture ever say that anyone gathered on the first day of the week in recognition of the resurrection.

…not to delve into technicalities… but do you believe that if it is not Written in Scriptures it is not part of Church Doctrine?

The problem with sola Scriptura is that it fails to accept the fact that the Apostles preached the Gospel first–for a good few decades!

Also, the same people that subscribe to sola Scriptura are quite selective about what in Scriptures they accept as God’s Commandment…

…here’s a little conundrum: where in Scriptures do we have ‘Jesus/the Apostles taught that those of the Way should not gather in the local synagogues?’

Nowhere, right?

Yet, it happened! The Apostles and Believers gathered for Worship outside of the Judaic customs (Temple and synagogues).

In Scriptures we have the following Revelation:

42 They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.

46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2:42, 46-47)

It is revealed that the Apostles, along with the community of the Believers, gathered together everyday to brake bread, to fellowship, learn, pray, and praise God–they did this in the temple’s courts!

Though Scriptures do not Reveal when this gathering in the temple courts ceased, we know that the Way became persecuted and that the Church emerged outside of Judaic practices.

Since, the Apostles and the Believers gathered together everyday to brake Bread and Worship, why would it be necessary to emphasize that they met on Sunday (Acts 20:7) if not to separate this particular day from the rest of the week?:

2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. (1 Corinthians 16:2)

So how did the Sunday become the Worship day for Christians? Here’s what St. Justin Martyr stated:

And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. (prayerfoundation.org/justin_martyr_early_christian_worship.htm)

…this is why the Tradition of the Apostles (Oral and Written) is important; without the Succession of the Apostles there are so many seeming inconsistencies with what has transpired in the Church through time.

Interestingly enough, those who want to take the Church back to its origins refuse to see her as an organism that, through the Succession of the Apostles, has remained, by the function of the Holy Spirit, as Christ foretold Simon:

And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. (St. Matthew 16:18)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[rstrats]

jcrichton,
re: “…but do you believe that if it is not Written in Scriptures it is not part of Church Doctrine?”

I do not. There certainly are all kinds of RCC doctrines that are not contained in scripture.

I made the mistake of sticking my nose into the discussion to simply point out that there is no scriptural support for your assertion that Sunday is the “Lord’s Day”. I think there may be some who think that there is.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

jcrichton,
re: “…but do you believe that if it is not Written in Scriptures it is not part of Church Doctrine?”

I do not. There certainly are all kinds of RCC doctrines that are not contained in scripture.

I made the mistake of sticking my nose into the discussion to simply point out that there is no scriptural support for your assertion that Sunday is the “Lord’s Day”. I think there may be some who think that there is.

Sunday was celebrated as the Lord’s day. Saturday was always called the Sabbath. And all CC doctrines preceded the canonization of Scripture

 

[rstrats]

JB Brother 4446,
re: “Sunday was celebrated as the Lord’s day.”

I understand that. I was merely pointing out that 1st day of the week celebratory practice was not mentioned in the New Testament nor that the designation of “Lord’s Day” was ever given to the 1st day of the week in the New Testament.

 

[Vico]

I read in a catechism:

“The Church commands us to keep the Sunday holy instead of the Sabbath because on Sunday Christ rose from the dead, and on Sunday he sent the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles.”

How is that possible? Pentecost means “fifty”, referring to the fiftieth day after the Passover. Our Pentecost is on a Sunday because our Easter is on Sunday. That is because the Church ruled that Easter should be the Sunday after the Passover would have been celebrated that year in the Old Law.

But we know from the Gospels that Christ was most certainly not crucified on a Sunday, since he rose on the third day, which was a Sunday. So wouldn’t the Pentecost that year have to have been late in the week?

The third day is from this numbering:

• 1 - Friday (Good Friday)
• 2 - Saturday (Sabbath)
• 3 - Sunday - (Resurrection) the eighth day

The 50 days is inclusive from Sunday to Sunday, so (7 weeks x 7 days per week) +1 (inclusive).

 

[rstrats]

Vico,
re: “3 - Sunday - (Resurrection) the eighth day”

Actually, it was the 3rd day - or more specifically the 3rd day after the crucifixion (Mark 8:31) and with at least parts of 3 daytimes and at least parts of 3 night times being involved (Matthew 12:40).

 

[Vico]

Vico,
re: “3 - Sunday - (Resurrection) the eighth day”

Actually, it was the 3rd day - or more specifically the 3rd day after the crucifixion (Mark 8:31) and with at least parts of 3 daytimes and at least parts of 3 night times being involved (Matthew 12:40).

Yes, that is what the “3 -” means. The Resurrection is known as the eighth day, and we continue to live in it now.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Vico,
re: “3 - Sunday - (Resurrection) the eighth day”

Actually, it was the 3rd day - or more specifically the 3rd day after the crucifixion (Mark 8:31) and with at least parts of 3 daytimes and at least parts of 3 night times being involved (Matthew 12:40).

Jesus was in the tomb three days.
After evening sacrifice to sundown. Day 1 Friday
Sundown to Sundown Day 2 Saturday
Sundown to Early Morning Day 3 Sunday

 

[jcrichton]

jcrichton,
re: “…but do you believe that if it is not Written in Scriptures it is not part of Church Doctrine?”

I do not. There certainly are all kinds of RCC doctrines that are not contained in scripture.

I made the mistake of sticking my nose into the discussion to simply point out that there is no scriptural support for your assertion that Sunday is the “Lord’s Day”. I think there may be some who think that there is.

…please, don’t get me wrong… engaging me, or anyone else, in matters of Sacred Scriptures is beneficial for both of us (perhaps even for those who just visit); I pushed the issue to bring you into that field of Church Doctrine and Function… while there is not a single explicit: ‘we will now begin to Worship God on Sundays because it is the Lord’s Day…’ we do have Church History (as in the Succession of the Apostles) and Biblical proof that Church Doctrine (the unfolding of Christ’s Teachings through the Guidance of the Holy Spirit) takes place right from the passages of Sacred Scriptures.

The problem we have today (I would say after the 16th century schism) is that we believe that each person can interpret Scriptures using the sola Scriptura foundation (something that was invented by Luther) while completely disregarding/rejecting the Succession of the Apostles, of which the Oral and Written Traditions are integral parts of Church Structure.

…so I’ve tried to demonstrate, through Scriptures, that Sunday, the first day of the week, did become a separated day for Believers; conversely, since Scriptures do speak about the Day of the Lord, it is easy for me to conclude that the Apostles may well have changed the intentions of the Sabbath (Saturday for Judaism) to Sunday because they may have seen, in the day of Christ’s Resurrection, a prefigurement (type) for the Day of the Lord (which is fully present in Scriptures, a numerous times).

I apologize if my efforts have been too intrusive/offensive.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Vico]

…please, don’t get me wrong… engaging me, or anyone else, in matters of Sacred Scriptures is beneficial for both of us (perhaps even for those who just visit); I pushed the issue to bring you into that field of Church Doctrine and Function… while there is not a single explicit: ‘we will now begin to Worship God on Sundays because it is the Lord’s Day…’ we do have Church History (as in the Succession of the Apostles) and Biblical proof that Church Doctrine (the unfolding of Christ’s Teachings through the Guidance of the Holy Spirit) takes place right from the passages of Sacred Scriptures.

The problem we have today (I would say after the 16th century schism) is that we believe that each person can interpret Scriptures using the sola Scriptura foundation (something that was invented by Luther) while completely disregarding/rejecting the Succession of the Apostles, of which the Oral and Written Traditions are integral parts of Church Structure.

…so I’ve tried to demonstrate, through Scriptures, that Sunday, the first day of the week, did become a separated day for Believers; conversely, since Scriptures do speak about the Day of the Lord, it is easy for me to conclude that the Apostles may well have changed the intentions of the Sabbath (Saturday for Judaism) to Sunday because they may have seen, in the day of Christ’s Resurrection, a prefigurement (type) for the Day of the Lord (which is fully present in Scriptures, a numerous times).

I apologize if my efforts have been too intrusive/offensive.

Maran atha!

Angel

The Apostles were Jews so would observe the Sabbath, and also the Resurrection (Sunday), but being persecuted, that celebration was hidden. The gentile converts celebrated the Resurrection (Sunday).

 

[jcrichton]

The Apostles were Jews so would observe the Sabbath, and also the Resurrection (Sunday), but being persecuted, that celebration was hidden. The gentile converts celebrated the Resurrection (Sunday).

…yet the Apostles changed their methods, as explained by St. Paul; they Taught (opposing those who were not in full union with them) that no one had to convert to Judaism in order to become of the Way/Christian; they also Taught that no longer was there a necessity to circumcise children as observance of the law would only undo the observance of Grace, found only in Christ Jesus.

The developing Church would usher in new Methods and Doctrine (such as no longer Worshiping in the synagogue and at the Temple). It is this development that gave rise to the cult/Worship on the day that Christ Rose from the dead and Brought us Liberty!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Vico]

…yet the Apostles changed their methods, as explained by St. Paul; they Taught (opposing those who were not in full union with them) that no one had to convert to Judaism in order to become of the Way/Christian; they also Taught that no longer was there a necessity to circumcise children as observance of the law would only undo the observance of Grace, found only in Christ Jesus.

The developing Church would usher in new Methods and Doctrine (such as no longer Worshiping in the synagogue and at the Temple). It is this development that gave rise to the cult/Worship on the day that Christ Rose from the dead and Brought us Liberty!

Maran atha!

Angel

Yes, Matthew 23

1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. 3 Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens [hard to carry] and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them. 5 All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6 They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, 7 greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’ 8 As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. 10 Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you must be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[rstrats]

Vico,
re: “The Resurrection is known as the eighth day…”

Just so it’s understood that scripture never refers to the resurrection as the eighth day.

 

[rstrats]

JB Brother 4446,
re: "Jesus was in the tomb three days.
After evening sacrifice to sundown. Day 1 Friday
Sundown to Sundown Day 2 Saturday
Sundown to Early Morning Day 3 Sunday "

The Messiah said that 3 night times would be involved. How do you account for the missing night?

 

[rstrats]

jcrichton,
re: “I apologize if my efforts have been too intrusive/offensive.”

Not necessary. We’re just throwing out ideas here.

 

[rstrats]

1ke,
re: “The day after the Sabbath is Sunday (in this case Easter Sunday) and 50 days after that is Pentecost Sunday.”

Actually, the 50th day after Sunday would fall on a Monday.

 

[Wesrock]

John 20 :1 Early on the first day of the week . . .

Luke 24:1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning . . .

Matthew 28:1 Now after the sabbath, toward the dawn of the first day of the week . . .

Matthew 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Mag′dalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salo′me, bought spices, so that they might go and anoint him. 2 And very early on the first day of the week . . .

Acts 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread . . .

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2 On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made

As for Pentecost falling on Sunday, the first Sunday is part of the count:
Leviticus 23:15 From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks. 16 Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath

Followed by late first century and second century writings of meeting on the Lord’s day, the first day of the week, the eighth day (symbolic of renewal and regeneration and a new creation).

I don’t see how it can be argued either that Jesus did not rise on Sunday, as attested to in scripture, and that the Lord’s Day wasn’t kept on Sunday from the beginning. The first day, the day after the Sabbath, is Sunday. The scriptures are also clear that Jesus died on a Friday.