How could the universe and life come into existence without God? How could life evolve without God?

[stoplooklisten]

Then God’s will was ineffective for the eternity before the universe was created. What changed to make God’s eternal will effective when previously it was ineffective?

I am not talking about primary cause here, but about necessary and sufficient causes. God alone cannot be a sufficient cause from anything non-eternal. He may be necessary but He cannot be sufficient.

Good sir @rossum, are you sure that you have the knowledge, wisdom and understanding to say what Almighty God could and couldn’t do before Creation and the “Big Bang”?
Could not Almighty God be sovereign and free not to create and to create as the Triune Mystery chose and willed to do. God is love and already had love operating among Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The Bible starts with “In the beginning, God created…”. Anything about what happened before the beginning is speculative.

Almighty God was free both not to create and to create. He is free now to uncreate but will also act according to His Being and Character and Word. Genuine prophecy will be fulfilled and then an end will come.

 

[rossum]

Good sir @rossum, are you sure that you have the knowledge, wisdom and understanding to say what Almighty God could and couldn’t do before Creation and the “Big Bang”?

I say nothing about what He could do. I am talking about the observable scientific evidence of what happened. The material universe did not originate 200 billion years ago, that is an observable fact. Hence the full cause of the material universe did not exist 200 billion years ago. It is possible that part of the cause might have existed then, but not the full cause.

Could not Almighty God be sovereign and free not to create and to create as the Triune Mystery chose and willed to do. God is love and already had love operating among Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Possible, but He observably did not create 200 billion years ago. Something was not present then that was present at the Big Bang.

The Bible starts with “In the beginning, God created…”. Anything about what happened before the beginning is speculative.

Speculative? Not at all. If God created “In the beginning” then God did not create before the beginning. The Bible tells us so. My argument is based on what changed from before the beginning, when there was no creation to the beginning and subsequently when there was creation. Something changed; I am focusing on what exactly it was that changed.

 

[o_mlly]

Then God’s will was ineffective for the eternity before the universe was created. What changed to make God’s eternal will effective when previously it was ineffective?

The activity of beings categorized as eternal beings can only be characterized in the present participle. God willing is eternal. God willing eternally is necessary and sufficient for the existence of all non-eternal beings, including time itself.

Nothing eternal changes. Nothing changed in the mind or will of God as He effects His eternal plan eternally.

Beings in time who experience all things sequentially can only directly perceive that you are now, have been, and will always will be an idea in the mind of God. From the Eternal Being’s perspective, you simply are with no transition from idea to being. For us, our story seems to unfold. For God, that play never started but simply always is. As beings trapped in time, we cannot now directly perceive as God does – all things at once – but must imagine an eternal being’s alternate perspective.

 

[o_mlly]

The material universe did not originate 200 billion years ago, that is an observable fact.

? The claim has an internal contradiction.

 

[stoplooklisten]

I am talking about the observable scientific evidence of what happened. The material universe did not originate 200 billion years ago, that is an observable fact. Hence the full cause of the material universe did not exist 200 billion years ago. It is possible that part of the cause might have existed then, but not the full cause.

Yes, the observable material universe does not show us 200 billion years. Distant starlight and radiometric dating gives us only dates that are much older than 6000 years but much less than your 200 billion years.

God is Spirit. God created physics. Physics includes energy, matter and time. Time only exists if God created it to exist.

Not all reality is visible and measurable. Wisdom is like this. Angels and demons are like this. Resurrection from the dead is like this. Eternity to come is like this.

 

[stoplooklisten]

I am talking about the observable scientific evidence of what happened. The material universe did not originate 200 billion years ago, that is an observable fact. Hence the full cause of the material universe did not exist 200 billion years ago. It is possible that part of the cause might have existed then, but not the full cause.

200 billion years ago is really a speculative concept. Matter, energy and time are part of physics. They had a beginning. They will have an end. We don’t have any evidence that the physical dimension of time existed in a time dimension that is 200 billion years long.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

If God created “In the beginning” then God did not create before the beginning.

Agreed.

My argument is based on what changed from before the beginning, when there was no creation to the beginning and subsequently when there was creation. Something changed; I am focusing on what exactly it was that changed.

Arguments are good for challenging the mind to think. Winning an argument does not mean the winner has truth on their side, it often means they have good debating skills.

The creation of the universe is history, we can’t change history. Searching for the truth must be important.

 

[Pattylt]

I heard an interesting theory.
As you approach the Big Bang and thus approach time=0, you can not ever actually reach it…t=0 stretches back to infinity thus the universe was beginning to bang from infinity as well.

I have no idea what to make of it. It’s an interesting thought experiment! Thought I’d throw it out here. :hugs:

 

[Noose001]

I heard an interesting theory.
As you approach the Big Bang and thus approach time=0, you can not ever actually reach it…t=0 stretches back to infinity thus the universe was beginning to bang from infinity as well.

I have no idea what to make of it. It’s an interesting thought experiment! Thought I’d throw it out here. :hugs:

Why would you go through such pain, is it because you want God not to exist?!
The properties clearly show that the universe had a beginning.

 

[Pattylt]

Why would you go through such pain, is it because you want God not to exist?!
The properties clearly show that the universe had a beginning.

I have no problem with the idea of God creating the universe. I don’t happen to believe it as it has no actual evidence but we don’t have actual evidence of anything doing it either.

And what on earth do you mean by going through pain. This thought wasn’t painful in the slightest! Reaching much?

 

[Noose001]

I have no problem with the idea of God creating the universe. I don’t happen to believe it as it has no actual evidence but we don’t have actual evidence of anything doing it either.

Well, the pain is showing right there (highlighted). Why do you require evidence particularly on God when so many aspects of your daily life is by faith, no actual evidence needed?

 

[rossum]

The activity of beings categorized as eternal beings can only be characterized in the present participle.

So, the sea is parted in Abraham’s time. The sea is parted in Moses’ time. The sea is parted in Solomon’s time. The sea is parted today. All in the present tense and unevidenced. Why did Moses have to ask if the sea is parted in Abraham’s time? Why couldn’t Pharaoh’s army cross if the sea is parted?

The God of the Bible is not the God you are describing here.

Nothing eternal changes.

Correct. The eternal cannot change; anything that changes cannot be eternal. Now you have the problem of explaining how the God of the Bible changes from not parting the sea to parting the sea and changes back to not parting the sea.

 

[rossum]

Searching for the truth must be important.

And I have four of them:

• Suffering.
• Origin.
• Cessation.
• Path.

What I do not have is the deep logical problem with an unchanging entity that changes.

In Buddhism everything changes.

 

[Noose001]

In Buddhism everything changes.

What about silence?

What I do not have is the deep logical problem with an unchanging entity that changes.

The logical problem is in your mind.

 

[Pattylt]

Well, the pain is showing right there (highlighted). Why do you require evidence particularly on God when so many aspects of your daily life is by faith, no actual evidence needed?

What definition of pain are you using?

I’ve learned that having evidence helps me to not fall for false claims that sound nice but aren’t real. I have various levels of trust I place on everything depending on how important or dangerous it is for me to believe it. Since the God question seems quite important and possibly dangerous, I expect a corresponding level of evidence to believe it. I have found that, so far, it is greatly deficient in evidence.

I’ve found that faith as defined by many religious people seems to correspond with hope. There is also the definition of faith where you believe in something without any evidence…I just seem incapable of that type.

 

[o_mlly]

So, the sea is parted in Abraham’s time. The sea is parted in Moses’ time. The sea is parted in Solomon’s time. The sea is parted today. All in the present tense and unevidenced. Why did Moses have to ask if the sea is parted in Abraham’s time? Why couldn’t Pharaoh’s army cross if the sea is parted?

This explanation confuses the created being’s experience which is sequential with the Eternal Being’s experience which is all things at once. From the perspective of eternity, the sea is always non-parted, parting, and parted. That which has been must always be in eternity.

Now you have the problem of explaining how the God of the Bible changes from not parting the sea to parting the sea and changes back to not parting the sea.

No problem. Nothing has changed; in eternity all modes of the sea’s three states, past present and future, although sequential from our perspective, are at once.

 

[Noose001]

What definition of pain are you using?

The kind that says, ’ i don’t like the idea of God so anything else should be acceptable except God’

Since the God question seems quite important and possibly dangerous, I expect a corresponding level of evidence to believe it. I have found that, so far, it is greatly deficient in evidence.

And this is the pain i was talking about. How can something that doesn’t exist according to you, be dangerous?! ‘I think it’s a dangerous idea so it must not exist’

Belief and faith are very natural ingredients of our lives. we can not do without them especially where reality can not be measured but understood.

 

[Pattylt]

The kind that says, ’ i don’t like the idea of God so anything else should be acceptable except God’

Well, that’s not me so…?

How can something that doesn’t exist according to you, be dangerous?! ‘I think it’s a dangerous idea so it must not exist’

Nooooo, if something is supposed to be the most important thing I ever believe in and I’ll go to Hell if I don’t… That’s the danger. That’s where and why I need evidence.

If someone said they had a cat in their garage, I usually have enough faith that that’s probably true. People own cats. Cats are often in garages. There is no real importance or danger to myself if I have faith that they are telling the truth.

Compare that to…

I have a nuclear weapon in my garage. This is not something average people have and it’s certainly dangerous to keep one. Do we take this on faith? I would most certainly want some evidence that a weapon not allowed to be owned by ordinary people and certainly not in garages actually existed as stated. Most people’s first reaction, without any evidence, is, “yeah, suuuure you do!” And yet we also do know that nuclear weapons exist. Say the claim was aliens with nuclear guns aimed at us are in my garage…Now you really really need some evidence! And don’t tell me you wouldn’t!

You believe an alien power with unlimited abilities and power exists and can judge us and we can wind up in Hell created by this alien if we don’t accept and worship him…but, He loves us.

What do you think is a reasonable amount of evidence it would take a non believer to have to establish this? Stories from a 2000 year old book? Feeling you get when you talk to Him (while admitting that you don’t actually hear Him talk back)? Do you understand how insufficient the evidence is…unless you already believe it?

I have no pain over the God question. I did about 50 years ago when I lost my faith but now? None at all. I left the question of Gods existence in His hands long ago. Not my worry now.

 

[rossum]

What about silence?

Can you hear the blood pumping in your ears?

 

[rossum]

This explanation confuses the created being’s experience which is sequential with the Eternal Being’s experience which is all things at once.

Then you have a huge logical problem. The sea is simultaneously parted and not parted. Adam is simultaneously alive and dead. We have A and not-A simultaneously. You have a very big logical problem.

No problem. Nothing has changed; in eternity all modes of the sea’s three states, past present and future, although sequential from our perspective, are at once.

So, you have sea-parted and not-sea parted simultaneously. Given such an obvious contradiction and statement whatsoever can be proved. For example, I could prove that Ivanka Trump is actually a penguin in disguise. Given a logical contradiction any nonsensical statement can be shown true.

The sea cannot both be parted and non-parted “at once”.