"How dare you insult me!" - "What...!?"

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the bottom line is that you personally have a choice as to how you present yourself and your views in conversation, and though you can predict the response, you don’t have a choice as to how your conversational partner will respond. how you make your choices depends on what you hope to accomplish in conversation.
I think you raise an important issue here: what is the purpose of (philosophical) conversation and how does this purpose determine the ground rules governing such conversation (assuming you agree that it *does *determine them)?

EDIT: I see you’ve already given one answer that I wholeheartedly agree with: “we need to give one another the benefit of the doubt that we aren’t out to offend one another all the time. if we have to walk around on tip toes, we probably won’t get a good exchange of ideas.”
 
It seems like a sophomoric ‘comeback,’ not an attempt to move a philosophical discussion forward.
What do you think a ‘philosophical discussion’ is? Why do you think you fail to see one here? (Are you sure it’s because there isn’t one, or is it possibly because you’re just not trying to understand and respond to the reasons being offered here, you’re just responding with your emotions? - This problem is the heart of the issue I’m getting at.)
 
Not everyone has a thick skin.

Now when I say something that has caused offense I normally apologize rather than call out the person for being thin skinned.

That is what charity is about. There is no need to make a thread about it.
 
What do you think a ‘philosophical discussion’ is? Why do you think you fail to see one here? (Are you sure it’s because there isn’t one, or is it possibly because you’re just not trying to understand and respond to the reasons being offered here, you’re just responding with your emotions? - This problem is the heart of the issue I’m getting at.)
What are the essential elements of a “philosophical discussion”? Are insults necessary?

What elements, if present, would make it a non-philosophical discussion?

Your list of questions above do not define what “This problem” is. Responding to vagueness is rarely fruitful.
 
Discussions consist not merely of logic, but of rhetoric, the manner in which one’s ideas are presented. A key part of rhetoric is tone, and a key part of tone is word-choice.

While it’s certainly possible to call someone’s views “simplistic” and “arrogant” without intending to offend the other person, these are – as davidv noted in the very first response – loaded words that come equipped with emotional baggage. This should be obvious to anyone who has any experience at all interacting with people.

Now, I’m all for people adopting aggressive tones if they want, but for a person to adopt an aggressive tone and then express surprise along the lines of “Who? Me?” when they’re called out for their behavior is utterly juvenile.
 
Any thoughts on this passage from the third chapter of the book of the prophet Ezekiel, especially verse 18?:

16 And at the end of seven days the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 17 Son of man, I have made you a watchman to the house of Israel: and you shall hear the word out of my mouth, and shall tell it them from me. 18 If, when I say to the wicked, You shall surely die: you declare it not to him, nor speak to him, that he may be converted from his wicked way, and live: the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but I will require his blood at your hand. 19 But if you give warning to the wicked, and he be not converted from his wickedness, and from his evil way: he indeed shall die in his iniquity, but you have delivered your soul. 20 Moreover if the just man shall turn away from his justice, and shall commit iniquity: I will lay a stumbling block before him, he shall die, because you have not given him warning: he shall die in his sin, and his justices which he has done, shall not be remembered: but I will require his blood at your hand. 21 But if you warn the just man, that the just may not sin, and he does not sin: living he shall live, because you have warned him, and you have delivered your soul.
I’m afraid I don’t see how this is necessarily related to a philosophical discussion.
 
Not everyone has a thick skin.

Now when I say something that has caused offense I normally apologize rather than call out the person for being thin skinned.

That is what charity is about. There is no need to make a thread about it.
So I suppose you should be my role model? No need to respond to the points the other person raises, just tell them to be more like you?
 
What are the essential elements of a “philosophical discussion”? Are insults necessary?

What elements, if present, would make it a non-philosophical discussion?

Your list of questions above do not define what “This problem” is. Responding to vagueness is rarely fruitful.
Of course insults are not necessary. Please don’t be so silly. I think a non-philosophical discussion would be one where reason-giving is ignored and people are attacked or we talk about our feelings or unsupported opinions. “The problem” is clearly enough, I think, one of understanding what philosophy is and what its ground rules are and are not.
 
Discussions consist not merely of logic, but of rhetoric, the manner in which one’s ideas are presented. A key part of rhetoric is tone, and a key part of tone is word-choice.

While it’s certainly possible to call someone’s views “simplistic” and “arrogant” without intending to offend the other person, these are – as davidv noted in the very first response – loaded words that come equipped with emotional baggage. This should be obvious to anyone who has any experience at all interacting with people.

Now, I’m all for people adopting aggressive tones if they want, but for a person to adopt an aggressive tone and then express surprise along the lines of “Who? Me?” when they’re called out for their behavior is utterly juvenile.
I think the “aggressiveness” of a position is really irrelevant to the philosophical merit of an expressed position. The problem is with interpreting an observation made about one’s position emotionally and ignoring the content of the observation. That can’t possibly have philosophical merit. It’s a problem that needs to be seen for what it is, even if people like to cling to emotional reactions and, as a result, their irrational opinions.

Now as for “calling someone out for behaviour,” Antitheist, you completely beg the question here, which is what the nature of that behaviour is in the first place. If someone is accused of insulting Jo because he noted that Jo’s position was simplistic, that accusation is not justified. That’s the issue that I’m trying to discuss and your suggestion that my wanting to do so is utterly juvenile is very irrational and itself appears to be a rather juvenile attempt to insult me (a lot of irony in this thread).
 
Not everyone has a thick skin.

Now when I say something that has caused offense I normally apologize rather than call out the person for being thin skinned.
So say Jo says: “Black people are simply not as intelligent as whites and they are much more inclined to criminal behaviour. That’s why we need affirmative action.”
You say: “But that’s a very simplistic way to understand the situation, don’t you agree?”
Jo replies: “How dare you call me simplistic!”

Now do you really simply apologize here? Of course you aren’t left with the only other option being “call out the person for being thin skinned” - philosophically speaking that would be just as irrelevant as Jo’s reply, so I think your offering it here as “the other option” is really a red herring.
That is what charity is about. There is no need to make a thread about it.
But that’s a very simplistic :eek:] way to analyze the problem this thread raises - can you see that?
 
So say Jo says: “Black people are simply not as intelligent as whites and they are much more inclined to criminal behaviour. That’s why we need affirmative action.”
You say: “But that’s a very simplistic way to understand the situation, don’t you agree?”
Jo replies: “How dare you call me simplistic!”
Why can’t you simply address the assumptions in Jo’s statement, rather than pass judgement on it, calling it “simplistic” - which is not the word I would use for a statement like that, by the way - I’d call it “outright wrong and just plain crazy,” if I were passing a judgement on it - “simple” doesn’t even enter into it. 😉
 
I think the “aggressiveness” of a position is really irrelevant to the philosophical merit of an expressed position.
Of course. Rhetoric does not affect the logical content of your messages, but it does affect your audience’s perception of your ethos, and it thereby affects the persuasiveness of your posts and the desire of others to engage in conversation with you.

If you just want to be strictly logical and use emotionally-charged words without any regard for how they’re going to be received, you can do what you want, but you’re going to have a pretty lonely conversation alone by yourself in a corner after your attitude has alienated all of the people who understand the nuances of human interaction.
 
We’ve got two divergent considerations here, direct truth-assertion and emotional stability. The first valuation is good for upholding the unambiguous leading of someone to possible truth. It cuts into the second when an irrelevant truth is needlessly harmful to someone’s emotional state and subverts its own purpose (i.e., sharing truth) by causing another to focus instead on himself. The second is good for preserving a soundness of mind that allows for truth to enter and be considered; but when over-valued, harsh but necessary or helpful truths can often go unsaid.

When push comes to shove, I say, the advantage goes to the truth-assertion, especially considering how ridiculously over-sensitive most folks in our PC, self-esteem-obsessed culture are. Sensitivity always gets the upper-hand, because our modern/po-mo philosophies made us lose all faith in ever getting the truth. Our culture operates on the basis that truth is either non-existent, purely subjective, or else unattainable, and so we apparently ought to just elevate the status of “sincerity” and “niceness.” We’ve generally grown soft.

Since direct truth-assertion is a more efficient way to lead people to the truth, it should take precedent over emotions, which are often useless by themselves, only a minimally necessary condition that’s best left mostly to the control of a stoic individual. Especially so for philosophy.

[And for clearer justification of my view, read on. Unless you’re easily offended…]

The obvious question that all these consideration must be made under is, What is the good of philosophical discussion?

The prior question should be: what’s the good of discussion in general?

The end: Knowledge (of truth).
The means: Communicative and correspondly significant language.

Two or more persons employ man’s God-given capacity for symbolic, referential speech toward the immediate end of sharing the contents of their internal worlds, their ideas, their beliefs, etc, with the intention of producing similar ideas, beliefs, or knowledge in others.

Primitively, communication seems to have arisen among animals as an effective stimulus-response behavior that ultimately produced such survival benefits, for whichever ones had instinctual affinity to it, that the genetic and physiological bases for it were “selected for.” Primitive communication needed only be dyadic, eliciting an advantageous response regardless of whether it signified anything universal or was understood as an “intentional item.”

Language is uniquely intentional; it pertains and refers to concepts, relations, and judgments by way of conventional markers and signs. I would think that language first occurred when prototypical man (Adam) discovered mental reality, intentionality, and the fact that any thing can and does point beyond itself; so he invented practical and conventional ways to utilize the power. He realized that certain formations of color on a kind of berry made him sick and thus remembered what such a formation indicated; he was able to assign meaning to his markers by establishing their meanings socially; he developed an efficient code of symbols that maximized his brain’s memory; etc. (Some evo-biologists think our ability to pass down agricultural and ecological information caused modern man to beat out neanderthals in the competition for like resources.)

So the natural end of language is likely rooted in correspondence between signs and reality, individually and socially, which efficiently serves a higher natural good, like survival. Of course, man’s ultimate good is more than survival; it is spiritual, that is, eternal joy and worship in personal service of God and His Will. Therefore, language ought to maximize such an ultimate end by way of paving its Path, by establishing the best ways to follow it, i.e., typically, by elucidating truths. (Truth, unmixed with error, is our most reliable path to Him.)

In sum, communication and language allow for the sharing and creation of signs which lead us to truths about the world, ultimately to Truth Itself, or in other words, to knowledge. Knowledge of truth is the final end of communicative language.

Philosophical discussion allows for multiple minds, all potentially with their own unique perspectives and insights, to work together in service of determining philosophical truth, the right solution to a philosophical problem. Doing so clarifies God’s Truth when done so properly, without deceptively falling into half-truth. But in order for philosophy to best get underway, maximal clarity and precision is required. Rigorous logic, impartiality, creativity, intellectual honesty, open-mindedness, and above all, a passion for the truth above one’s self or another. Though always a matter of prudence, those who will muddy the waters by introducing pride or ego should usually refrain from these discussions. Not everyone is called to the Truth through philosophical insight – and I’m specifically referring to folks with such thin skin that they wouldn’t give the benefit of the doubt in favor of truth whenever it runs up against esteem or sensitivity. (These are female most often. Don’t blame me.) If philosophical discussion is to efficiently advance, egos must be left at the door so that all reasonable methods for sharing truth can be employed, even when somewhat uncertain or ambiguous.

We need to keep in mind that ad hominem does have legitimacy. If prudence dictates that a harsh truth will so harm a fool’s ego that it will cause him to dedicate a lot of time toward getting things right, then perhaps calling him a simpleton is your obligation. (Actually, it would seem that the less a man cares for the truth, the more justified you are in insulting him, no?)
 
When you call Jo’s view simplistic, is this an insult? Of course not. It is just a claim that Jo’s view is simplistic, most views are simplistic, that’s not necessarily a bad thing, and you think Jo’s view is one of those simplistic views. But to your surprise, Jo gets upset: “How dare you insult me!”

Why do people think it is not okay for someone to criticize their view? Suppose Jo says, “I don’t know you, but I do know that I am your intellectual equal - you couldn’t possibly be more intelligent or better informed than me.” Would it be an insult to point out to Jo that s/he is being arrogant and irrational? Suppose s/he responds by saying, “How dare you suggest that what I have said is not true and insult me by calling me arrogant and irrational!” Would it be an insult to point out to Jo that s/he is still being arrogant and irrational, and that s/he is proving the very point that s/he is disputing?

It seems like people are often unable to distinguish between a legitimate criticism (which is essential to philosophical dialogue) and a gratuitous insult. I wonder: why is that?
Too many people believe that passionate good intentions are more important than truth.

Passion is easy. It’s a knee jerk, first-emotion, feelgood response. It is god-like, egocentric. It can hide the truth as long as some passionate good intentions for others are attached to it.

Truth is not easy. It takes thought. It takes time to discern.

A truly open-minded person doesn’t mind discerning truth. A passionate person with good intent is addicted to the self’s easy ego boost of being right, as if intent itself is capable of solving problems. The good intender gets to feel good without making effort. If only intent could = truth, then we would be fine, but it doesn’t. Intent takes no action to fix the problems. Intent, without truth, wants others to sacrifice to fix the problems.
 
We need to keep in mind that ad hominem does have legitimacy.
Strictly speaking, ad hominem is a logical fallacy in which a person’s character is used as part of a logical argument against that person’s logical arguments. It’s not the same thing as an insult.

“You’re being simplistic” is an observation, one that might be taken in a bad way if one is not clear.

“You are an idiot” is an insult.

“You’re wrong on this point because you’re stupid!” is an ad hominem fallacy.

“You’re wrong on this point for reasons X, Y, Z. Oh, and also, you’re stupid!” is not an ad hominem fallacy. It is a logical argument followed by an insult.
If prudence dictates that a harsh truth will so harm a fool’s ego that it will cause him to dedicate a lot of time toward getting things right, then perhaps calling him a simpleton is your obligation.
Sure. But if you immediately turn around and say, “What? What did I do?” with innocent doe-eyes, you’ve got some problems.
 
If prudence dictates that a harsh truth will so harm a fool’s ego that it will cause him to dedicate a lot of time toward getting things right, then perhaps calling him a simpleton is your obligation. (Actually, it would seem that the less a man cares for the truth, the more justified you are in insulting him, no?)
vintage

If I make mistakes, please lay the non-personal criticism on me using logic and reason. I’d rather learn from my mistakes rather than repeat them.
 
I would probably be most inclined to insult someone in the process of explaining to him and any listeners why he should be refused as an interlocutor in philosophical debate.
  • “You won’t argue with me because you know you can’t prove it.”
  • “I can, but then to do so would be a wasteful expense to my intellectual faculty, since a logical proof only tends to be as demonstrative as its interpreter’s IQ will allow.”
or
  • “You’re not even addressing my points seriously anymore!”
  • “Your points are too childishly simplistic to entertain. To pretend they’re worthy of anything beyond mockery and dismissal would be to pay them an undeserved compliment and aid your suggestion that my view warrants controversy.”
I think that’s how it’s used a lot, actually. The dispute just naturally ends up being whether there’s any merit for the judgment that further conversation is pointless. And because that dispute employs an insult as one of its very premises, it can get personal; the guy will attack the premise asserting his idiocy more often than not in order to support his conclusion in favor of continued debate.

Unfortunately, I agree with Schopenhauer’s last two paragraphs here, but then I get the feeling a majority of folks would identify with the more self-aggrandizing sentiment (meaning of course that, if it’s correct, most of those sympathies would probably be a product of delusion).
 
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