How did Christians lose Plato & Aristotle?

[AgnosTheist]

Muslim apologists take great pride with the fact that it was through the muslim world that preserved the classical works of ancient greek philosophers.

So how did Europe lose these things? Some say Catholics destroyed it.

 

[Pete_1]

Muslim apologists take great pride with the fact that it was through the muslim world that preserved the classical works of ancient greek philosophers.

So how did Europe lose these things? Some say Catholics destroyed it.

I’m no historian but didn’t hordes of barbarians sack the Roman Empire causing europe to fall into a dark age?

 

[joeybaggz]

A lot of the writings of Doctors of the Church, especially Aquinas and a number of the middle age apologetical writers, are influenced by the classical philosophers.

As to the Catholic Church destroying them, well there are always going to be those who hate the church that will accuse Rome of everything. I’m waiting to hear someone accuse Rome of being behind the steroid scandal in baseball, Pauly Shore movies, and rap music.

 

[ralphinal]

There is some dishonesty going on here, but it is honest dishonesty.

The greatest libraries of the ancient world were in Greece and Greek owned areas, the big one being Alexandria, Egypt, which did burn down or sink into the Med. Many of these became Muslim areas, allowing the works to fall into Muslim hands.

Rome had a nasty habit of destroying stuff during battles, especially when they were really mad (see Carthage and Jerusalem). It was not uncommon for books to be destroyed by mistake.

After the fall of Rome, what literature was left in Europe was pulled into Monestaries and cloisters. There it sat. Now, in most of these places, the writings were not set up in a way to help with their preservation. Also, there were some clerics who did not see the need to preserve non-Christian writings.

Now that said, Augustine and Thomas Aquinas pulled from these sources, and I dare say not the Muslim versions.

If they had known what they held, there is no garantee they would have kept them.

 

[Hesychios]

The “Dark Ages” was only a problem in the Christian west, not the Christian east.

The Roman Empire lasted until 1452AD, and although it suffered a lot of problems, economic and otherwise, the literacy rate was still pretty high, and classical learning continued among the upper classes. Christians in those areas under the Muslims continued to study as well, St John Damascene (Doctor of the Church) being a prime example.

So of course it was possible to obtain books through the Muslims, but also directly from the Greek Christians.

The problem was, the west stopped training in Greek for the most part (even the priests), and the economy was in the toilet, so the market for these manuscripts (which were very expensive) just was not there. Northern Europe was quite literally in third world conditions and higher learning was simply not possible. If someone could by some grace learn the Greek the available collections were so insignificant at the time as to be unhelpful.

Now the Muslims controled Spain, taken over from the Goths. The economy under the Moors was very good there for a long time (I think olives and mining?..not sure now), and important (or powerful) people were trading across the length of the Mediterranean. In fact, some Christians and Jews as well as Muslims were doing well in that economic environment. Along with the great gardens and the architectural efforts, some of these people built up great collections of old codices and rare manuscripts which they were able to purchase from points east with their new wealth.

These places in Spain were more easily accessed from Gaul than the Byzantine east, so there was a certain attraction to the idea of going there. It was definitely cheaper.

Eventually, Europeans from north of the Pyrenees began making their way to Spain for extended stays to study in these (by then) old libraries. It required a knowledge of Greek and Arabic but if someone was willing to study these languages it could be well worth it. Gerbert d’Aurillac was one such person who did just that, we might know him by his later designation as Pope Sylvester II. Believe it or not, some people actually suspected him of dabbling in the occult because of the things he had learned in Moorish Spain. He was a great mind who helped reinvigorate learning in Europe.

All the ancient Greek learning obtainable through the Muslims was also available through Byzantium by anyone with the money and the time to go study in those places (or to import the books).

We must not disregard the contributions of Muslim scholars however, they did also advance learning in their own right (over and above what the Greek philosophers wrote about) and in their own Arabic language (Al-Hazen comes to mind) and should be given credit for their own extraordinary efforts.

Michael

 

[Zarathustra89]

Muslim apologists take great pride with the fact that it was through the muslim world that preserved the classical works of ancient greek philosophers.

So how did Europe lose these things? Some say Catholics destroyed it.

The Greek Christian Byzantines perserved the Greek philosophies. The Muslims terrorists conquered Byzantium and are thus able to claim they “perserved” these texts.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra

 

[averheyen]

I think it was the modern age that lost these treassures.

The actual hard copies of ancient texts may have been destroyed or lost along the way, but the middle ages is steeped in the knowledge of the classic writers.

Both Aquanis and Augustine KNEW their Aristotle and Plato, and they knew it well.

And everyone from Dante to Shakespeare to Milton knew their Greek history and philosophy to say the least. I don’t think it was ever lost, I just think the modern age forgets about it.

 

[puzzleannie]

Muslim apologists take great pride with the fact that it was through the muslim world that preserved the classical works of ancient greek philosophers.

So how did Europe lose these things? Some say Catholics destroyed it.

considering the Christian world, namely the Roman Empire which inherited the Greek culture, was overwhelmed by waves of barbarian invasions, and then the advance of Islam, which took over the lands in which those philosophies developed, it is not hard to see why knowledge of them faded in Western culture during the dark ages when people struggled to stay alive and cling to their own patch of rock.

much of the knowledge we have of these philosophers is preserved in the commentary of early Christian writers which survive to this day.

 

[Hesychios]

considering the Christian world, namely the Roman Empire which inherited the Greek culture, was overwhelmed by waves of barbarian invasions, and then the advance of Islam, which took over the lands in which those philosophies developed, it is not hard to see why knowledge of them faded in Western culture during the dark ages when people struggled to stay alive and cling to their own patch of rock.

much of the knowledge we have of these philosophers is preserved in the commentary of early Christian writers which survive to this day.

The Roman empire shrank of course, but it did not disappear at all until 1452AD, that is easily five hundred years after the Dark Ages.

The idea that the Greek Philosophers were lost to Christianity is nothing but a myth. It has somehow captured the popular imaginiation, but it is as ridiculous as stating that Greek Philosophy was lost to America because it was not regularly taught in or beyond rural Appalachia for a few generations. In Charleston, Philadelphia and Boston that was not the case at all.

The “Dark” Ages happened in northern Europe (modern France and Germany and some nearby other places) from about the Fifth Century until about the Ninth or Tenth Century.

What is so dark about them is that literacy fell and we don’t have a very clear historical record of the period in those areas. This is not true for those areas that were in the Byzantine (Roman) empire at all, nor along the Mediterranean coast nor Rome and Ravenna.



This map shows the extent of that state at in the early eight century, smack dab in the middle of what is called the “Dark” Ages. Classical training in rhetoric and logic and the “sciences” continued.

Aristotle and Plato were well known in these places, and these were Christian people.

The only problem with the northern areas is that they had economically declined. Christianity did not lose knowledge of the ancient philosophers at this time, only the Franks (essentially) had no interest in this higher learning, considering the prohibitive cost and the apparent lack of utility. It was a brutal era for those people.

The Frankish bishops of the church were so poorly educated that they were not present the Seventh Ecumenical Council in 787AD, because they were thought to be unable to contribute! There were 367 bishops in attendence but the Frankish bishops were simply not invited.

The society was a bit superstitious. The Franks had introduced trial by ordeal as a judicial method (It had not been known to the other Germanic people and not previously used by the Romans nor the Celts), and had the bishops presided over these affairs. Eventually the sensibility of the better educated clergy was able to succesfully oppose the practice. A Council at Aachen, called by Charlemagne in 798AD, condemned witch hunts and suggested reforms of the local church.

Later (circa the year 1000, roughly the tail end of the “Dark” Ages), the Roman Empire had reached this size:



Again, no problem learning about Aristotle or Plato here. One can easily see that there were parts of modern Italy included in this nation-state throughout the period. The problem was in the Frankish, Lombardic and Gothic territories to the north. The wealthy and powerful did not train in the classics, and the rest were dirt poor.

One difference that may account for the myth that Greek philosophy was lost to Christianity is that the Greeks studied the ancient philosophers but did not use philosophy to help develop theology. They were (and are) kept as separate disciplines.

{In the same way the Greeks were very adept at sculpture and decorated public places thoughout their nation with this method, but did not employ this technique within their church buildings.}

Thus, when the scholastic masters of the west began to study the ancient philosophers (after a hiatus of perhaps five centuries) they did not shy from applying these ideas and techniques to their religious ideas, but the Greeks did not likewise participate in this development.

That’s just how it is.

Michael

 

[LutheranDK]

Muslim apologists take great pride with the fact that it was through the muslim world that preserved the classical works of ancient greek philosophers.

So how did Europe lose these things? Some say Catholics destroyed it.

Considering how those two have polluted theology throughout the centuries, I say: Let the muslims keep them - and good riddance.