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SyroMalankara
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Why would they need to do this? The host was probably leavened and less crumbly. Ask the Assyrian/Chaldean Churches and some Orthodox how they do it today.
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PJM
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PJM
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Ahhhhhh. How about receiving GOD on one’s tongue:thumbsup:
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PJM
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with both of your points!
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ThundersnowIV
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porthos11;14319934 For all we know said:
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SyroMalankara
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Essentials vs. practical considerations.
The elements, the prayers are essential; when crowds go to 3000 in a field, the method used in a small room with 12 (not just any 12, 12 who were more than bishops, and knew Christ well) is not possible.
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Xystus
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I’m not suggesting anyone actually lick their hands clean. I was responding to the ridiculous (in my opinion) comment about “lukwarm” Catholics not checking their hands for particles by proposing an equally ridiculous solution to to consuming these particles which another poster pointed out that word “particles” gives the impression of something extremely small and would no longer have the appearance of bread.
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StGerardMajella
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The earliest Catholics would have been Jews. The Passover liturgy, which is the inspiration for the liturgy of the Eucharist as it was done at the Last Supper, is still practiced today on an annual basis by Jews.
The Passover liturgy itself is a derivation of sorts of the weekly Sabbath (“Shabbat”) meal held on Friday nights in a private home. Nowadays, the wine is raised in a cup and blessed first, then drunk by everyone at the table out of the same cup or each person’s individual cup.
Hands are then washed in ritual fashion with a wash cup, two loaves of bread are pressed together and raised by the person at the head of the table, blessed, and then sliced. Bread is then distributed to each participant before eating a festive dinner meal. Some traditions include a ritual “slice” of the bread before the blessing of the bread, but the knife does not touch the bread. You can read the entire ritual in most traditional Jewish prayer books.
My point being that you would need to research the Jewish practice at that time to know how the earliest Catholics - Jews at the time - received the Body and Blood of Christ. I believe it would not have been done so kneeling, on the tongue, but rather at a private dinner table, seated, and with blessed bread distributed in the hand.
My guess - I would have to read up on this - was that the first “Masses” were held in private homes before these Masses gravitated to more public settings. Given the open hostility to Christ and Christians at the time, much of the breaking of bread and wine done in Christ’s name was probably held in private homes for privacy and security reasons. Right after Christ was crucified, anyone celebrating a large public display of breaking bread and wine in Christ’s name would have been targeted by the authorities.
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camkutz
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It is up to the discretion of the priest, if he thinks there is possible sacrilege he will only give communion on the tongue.
And also to dispute something early, every single particle is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ.
If anyone has anymore disputes watch this: youtube.com/watch?v=BiUqDa_Gzj0
But not where the diocese permits it. Most dioceses will require their priests to respect the choice of the communicant.
If a candidate will not toe this line (or any line), he will not be ordained.
Politics is alive and well, even in the Catholic Church.
And the teaching of the Church is that once the appearance of bread is gone, the Real Presence is gone. If you can’t see it, there is no appearance of bread, and no Real Presence.
Therefore the previous comment about “lukewarm” Catholics was uncalled for.
You may be idealistic at this stage in life. But you WILL learn how to be a politician.
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Filioque
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Good points, but to get more specific as to the Seder at Passover, in the days of our Lord and the Apostles, even up to the mid 1700’s AD. The Passover was eaten reclining, and not sitting at the table. The significance being a free man eats reclining, a slave eats sitting or standing, and this is the celebration of freedom from slavery in Egypt. Secondly, at the more traditional Seder, and those of the days of our Lord, the leader of the Seder would put a piece of the Matzoh, or unleavened bread in the mouths of those present, feeding them as our Lord feeds us. So as we celebrate the freedom or exodus from sin, in the Mass, we are also fed by the master by the priest who is acting in His person.
Another distinction is that the English “Do this in memory of Me.” Does not really express what the Jews were doing at the Seder. It is explained to all who participate in the Seder, or Order of the Passover, that when we participate in the Seder, and follow the rites, we can no longer say that we are commemorating or remembering what God did for our forefathers in Egypt, but by our participation in the Seder services we can say this is what God has done for me, that is that anyone who participates in the Seder has himself by the power of God participated in the Exodus. So too in the Mass, the Last Supper and Calvary become something we participate in by the power of God, so we can say we stood, (or knelt) at the foot of the Cross, as Christ (who’s action all the Sacraments are) has made them present across time for us. Just as walking through the desert was the manner the first Jews participated in the Exodus, Jews today believe that when they participate in the Seder they too have participated in the Exodus. We by assisting at Mass, have been at the foot of the cross.
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Ubenedictus
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no wonder the practice was changed.
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BenP
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"ripping off a morsel and consuming it oneself (likely scattering crumbs all over the place, probably). "
Doubtful, no one really believing they receive God would act that way, I’ll point you to-
“consume it, being careful to drop not a particle of it. For to lose any of it is clearly like losing part of your own body. Tell me, if anyone gave you some gold dust, would you not keep it with the greatest care, ensuring that you did not lose by dropping any part of it? So you should surly take still greater care not to drop a fragment of what is more valuable than gold and precious stones.” - St. Cyril of Jerusalem
This is the only early church father I have ever been able to find who references communion in the hand. If anyone knows of another please chime in.
“What would you have those that receive in the hand do? Lick their hands clean?”
If they are crummy, yes.
Doubtful, no one really believing they receive God would act that way, I’ll point you to-
“consume it, being careful to drop not a particle of it. For to lose any of it is clearly like losing part of your own body. Tell me, if anyone gave you some gold dust, would you not keep it with the greatest care, ensuring that you did not lose by dropping any part of it? So you should surly take still greater care not to drop a fragment of what is more valuable than gold and precious stones.” - St. Cyril of Jerusalem
This is the only early church father I have ever been able to find who references communion in the hand. If anyone knows of another please chime in.
“What would you have those that receive in the hand do? Lick their hands clean?”
If they are crummy, yes.
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Beads
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I haven’t read all of the replies, so I might be late in this. But, the Orthodox still mix the bread with the wine and pour the consecrated mixture into the communicant’s mouth using a spoon. They are very careful not to touch the communicant’s mouth with the spoon.
Peace!
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otjm
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He is wrong.
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otjm
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No, it is not up to the priest. And :thinks there is a possibility of sacrilege" is so vague as to have no meaning.
You really need to learn what the Church teaches (as opposed to wherever you got this idea from) concerning particles of the Host.
And of course, youtube is the most accurate and approved method of finding out what the Church actually teaches - NOT.
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adamhovey1988
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whether it was on the hand or on the tongue I don’t know but I do know that it probably wasn’t by kneeling, since it would have originated in the Eastern Church. My experience with Eastern Christians has been with Melkite Greek Catholics, Syriac Orthodox and Maronite Catholics and all of which receive on the tongue but not kneeling. I think someone said something about byzantines using this spoon, that is generally true but not always melkites don’t always use the spoon, except in certain circumstances
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PopePiusXIISupp
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As an altar boy, I can confirm this. I am going to go off topic for a couple sentences. Holy Communion on the hand is an indult as most know. since it is an indult, it can be abolished (I want it abolished since I saw Pieces on the floor, that is for another post). Don’t compare it to relics, since they aren’t Our Lord (except for blood stains, but in the Eucharist Our Lord is living). If an ablution of the hand be done after the person receives in the hand that would be great since we don’t have to worry about Particles on the floor. I know about the wind argument. They’re going to be accidents, even in the TLM, but the reverence for the Eucharist is important. (Please don’t ban me for me wanting the abolish of Holy Communion in the hand.)
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PopePiusXIISupp
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Btw, the priest isn’t required to give Holy Communion. He can at Easter time, but not everyday or/and week.
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Don_Ruggero
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This is not correct at all. He is required by law to do so, provided the person is not prohibited by law from receiving.
*Can. 912 Any baptized person not prohibited by law can and must be admitted to holy communion.
Can. 918 It is highly recommended that the faithful receive holy communion during the eucharistic celebration itself. It is to be administered outside the Mass, however, to those who request it for a just cause, with the liturgical rites being observed.*
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