How did Israel's System of having a prophet work?

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Hi everyone. Thanks for taking the time to help me out with this. I found the following statement on aish.com while trying to debunk Jewish objections to the Christian faith, and I wanted to know what was up with it. Any info would be great. Thank you!

“The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum – Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides – Teshuva 9:2)

Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.”
 
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Hi everyone.
Hi Diamond …

I’m a Jew (-ess, to be technical), I’ve been around here amongst all you Catholics for nearly a decade and a half (after many years on non-Catholic Christian boards).

We won’t end up agreeing but let’s start thinking about stuff.

What do you think the ‘Tanakh’ (our word for what you Christians call the ‘Old Testament’) is all about?
 
My first thoughts are that the idea was to hold onto all of the beliefs and teachings and pass them on without changing anything
 
Did the message go through? I haven’t really used this site before
 
Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE.
I’m not sure where you got this idea from. In Hebrew, the word is נָבִיא (nāvî), which means spokesperson. A prophet was one who related what God told them to teh Jewish people. While the historical period of the prophets had ended, that does not preclude the possibility of subsequent prophets speaking on behalf of God to the Jewish people.

Given that Jesus spoke on behalf of God the Father, He fulfills the requirements of being a Prophet. Given that He was himself God the Son, He would likewise fulfill the requirement of being the greatest Prophet.

If you’d like a bit more history about the way Prophets operated in ancient Israel, @meltzerboy2 is probably your best bet. He usually has pretty comprehensive answers to questions like this.
 
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Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews remained in Babylon, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets – Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Where is this rule written. We could start there and examine its context.
 
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Thank you, but I am sure Kaninchen is far more knowledgeable about this topic than I am. All I know about prophets is that, while most were men, some were women; while most were Jewish, some were gentile; and, I believe, although their occurrence has diminished, it has not disappeared entirely. Remember too that there are major prophets and minor prophets: the latter are likely to exist to this very day. So, no, I don’t think prophets are confined to Israel or to the past, and the reason why Jesus is not considered a prophet among modern Jews has little to do with His “late” arrival.
 
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Did the message go through? I haven’t really used this site before
Sorry, I was being a bit cryptic!

I was trying to get some context about your visit to Aish and your proposed debunking exercise.

From observation, one of the problems is that both sides, when talking to each other, often miss the point that the Old Testament and the Tanakh are not the same thing - well, they are in the sense that they contain much the same text but, in terms of what might be described as ‘use’, they’re very different.

For Christians, the Old Testament is a story that predicts and leads to Jesus. For Jews, the part that is not Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) could be described as commentary, a deeper understanding of Torah, how we are to lead our lives.

So, given that we have different premises of what the whole text was ‘for’ I was wondering what you thought Prophets were ‘for’?
 
Revealing God’s word (and maybe guiding his people but I don’t know if they did that in any other way other than giving prophecies).
 
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Revealing God’s word (and maybe guiding his people but I don’t know if they did that in any other way other than giving prophecies).
Telling us we were getting it all wrong, again and again. 😃

The OT/Tanakh was a developing thing - a developing understanding by the People of their God and, I’d suggest, that would apply to an understanding of what prophets were ‘for’. What started off as a ‘seer’ role became more and more a commentator role.
 
The claims are absurd. By that logic, Moses couldn’t be a prophet, because all of Israel was in Egypt.
 
The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses.
The Messiah is not second to Moses. The Messiah is second to none. And the Messiah is more than a prophet.
Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry,
Uh, what’s the source for this statement? I’ve never heard it before.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended, and thus could not be a prophet.”
350 years after the last prophet that preceded Him.
And again, Messiah is more than a prophet.
 
OP pointed to an article online, asking why that article says this and if it’s a majority view.
 
some were gentile
Okay so, I’ll admit to not being the most knowledgeable about OT Prophets, I’m only up to the Book of Isaiah right now. I’m curious which prophets were Gentiles. I’d never really heard of that.
 
Well, let’s address some of these claims (edit: or all of them, I got a little carried away):

Under the first they claim that Jesus didn’t fulfill prophecy. According to them Jesus didn’t:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Ez 37: 26-28:
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”
Jesus did this. His sanctuary is among us, just not in a single place. It is in the tabernacle of every Catholic Church across the face of the whole world.
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Is 43: 5-6
5
Fear not, for I am with you;
from the east I will bring back your offspring,
from the west I will gather you.

6
I will say to the north: Give them up!
and to the south: Do not hold them!
Bring back my sons from afar,
and my daughters from the ends of the earth
Gathering can have many different understandings. I can gather together with my family for dinner, or we as a people can gather together to celebrate a national holiday. We the Church gather across the Earth every Sunday to give praise and worship to God. The scattered tribes of Israel were gathered together under the new Covenant.
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: “Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4)
Is 2:4
4
He shall judge between the nations,
and set terms for many peoples.
They shall beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks;
One nation shall not raise the sword against another,
nor shall they train for war again.
This will happen at the end of time. Just because a prophecy hasn’t been fulfilled yet doesn’t mean that it won’t be.
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: “God will be King over all the world – on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One” (Zechariah 14:9).
Zech 14:9
The LORD will be king over the whole earth; on that day the LORD will be the only one, and the LORD’s name the only one.
The Gospel did spread across all the world and Jesus is the king over all the Earth. The fact that people refuse to accept it doesn’t negate the reality. This could also be viewed as the culmination of history, and will occur at the end of time. Once again, it will happen via Jesus, the messiah.
 
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The author then makes some claims about Jesus not being a prophet which we’ve already addressed, and about Jesus not being a son of David, which is just nonsense. The genealogy is there in Matthew / Luke, and this argument completely ignores the fact that person who is a son by adoption is as much a part of the family as one who is a son by natural birth. Jesus is even referenced as the son of Joseph in the Bible. The Jews of this time weren’t concerned with DNA, the primary concern was being a member of the family. Adoption fulfilled that role, and Joseph adopted Jesus thereby making him a descendant in the line of David.

There last point under the second header is Torah observance. They claim that Jesus didn’t lead to observance of the Torah. We would counter by saying that Jesus fulfilled the covenant of the Torah. That is very different from changing it. The moral laws are all still in place, it is the cultural laws meant to set the Jews apart from the Gentiles that have been removed because there is no long any purpose for them under the new covenant. The gentiles have been welcomed into God’s family as children, and so the cultural distinctions are no longer needed. Incidentally, we do see Jesus fulfilling all the commands of proper Jewish observance, including circumcision, fasting, and celebration of the yearly feasts, along with temple attendance and pilgrimage to Jerusalem.

From there the author talks about mistranslations. The Virgin Birth is one that has a long debated history. I believe the translation is accurate, but even if it does only mean young woman, Mary still qualifies, so that’s a pointless argument. The suffering servant argument is likewise specious. Even if it does refer to the collective Israel, there is no reason to conclude that it only refers to the collective and could not similarly apply to the singular Messiah. The pains Jesus suffered are so explicitly similar to those listed in Isaiah that it would be hard to argue there was no connection.

Their last point is that God spoke to Israel as a nation instead of through individual revelation, and this is just a blatant falsehood. Apart from a handful of instances, every time God talks to the nation of Israel it is through a singular prophet, whom the people have accepted is speaking on behalf of God. They have no proof apart from the signs which accompany the revelation (thereby debunking their whole “we didn’t care about miracles” bit), and the person’s word for it that this is what God is saying. Jesus, as with the other prophets, accompanied his revelation with signs and miracles exactly like those foretold. (healing the sick, raising the dead, etc.). Jesus’s revelation was also intended for the whole of Jerusalem, as He taught to them many times, and then had the disciples go out and teach them accordingly after His resurrection. This argument is just flat out wrong, and borderline dishonest.

Sorry for the wall of text. I hope this helps.
 
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As you know, all of these points can and have been debated. But the most important point for Jews regarding Jesus is that He claimed not only to be the Messiah but to be G-d Himself. This notion of a Trinitarian G-d was and still is foreign to the Jewish understanding of the nature of G-d. Linked to this claim is the idea that the mission of Jesus is to forgive us sinners so that we are not doomed to hell. This too is not the Jewish understanding of the relationship between G-d and man. According to Judaism, although we err, although we sin, we are not doomed to hell because we have a means of atoning for our sins no matter how many times we continue to persevere in our errors. That means is reparations toward our fellow man and toward G-d by seeking forgiveness and changing our behavior through prayers and sincere repentance. This is explicitly stated in the Hebrew Scriptures. Besides, the word Mashiach does NOT mean Savior but rather Anointed One, and here the Jewish understanding is that the Mashiach is anointed by G-d to bring peace to the world by means of a deeper understanding and practice of the Law. This Jesus did not do, and if the Mashiach does not fulfill His mission the FIRST time (there is no Second Coming), then He cannot be the Mashiach. The Mashiach is not meant to fulfill the Law but rather to encourage its practice through studying and understanding it.
 
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