How did it go wrong? Free will in heaven?

atheistgirl · Feb 22, 2011

I dont know very much about heaven or hell or how it came about. But as for hell and the devil I think it is something to do with angels rebelling and being cast down to hell, then God making Adam and Eve in paradise, then them messing it up, and the rest is history. Is that close? If it’s not, when youve stopped laughing at me, can you recommend some good reading that would fill in the gaps.
If I am close, what bothers me thinking about it, is how could the angels have rebelled? They were in heaven, with God, and nothing could be any more perfect - and yet, they revolted.
So is there free will in heaven?
Can you decide ok, well, Ive lived a good life, I got to heaven, but to be honest, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be, never ending singing and praising, and start a union for harp players demanding shorter working hours, more pay, and seperate rooms from the flute players, thereby wrecking the harmony (oh, did you see what I just did there

) of heaven and get cast out?
When God made the angels he must have known one would rebel?
And this is a theme that I find interesting. God made the angels - but one rebelled so he had to make Hell to send him to - but He would have known that was going to happen. Then he made Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall, and bring sin and detruction into his creation, but He did so anyhow. Then he wiped the whole lot out apart from Noah (?) in a flood and started again.but He knew he’d have to. Then He ended up losing it with the Israelites and numerous other tribes and inflicting all sorts of punishments on them, and finally He ended up sending His Son as human sacrifice for mankinds sins. But He knew this too.
With the greatest of respect to all believers and speaking as an ignorant and not well informed atheist, so please dont take offense, but it seems that just about nothing worked out as planned? I think that’s, well, I dont know, odd I suppose, for an all powerful being.
Sorry, I think this started as a question of some sort, then I hesitated as I was thinking, and now I think Im just rambling. Sorry.

Sarah x

The_Exodus · Feb 22, 2011

First, this is a matter of faith. No one could ever prove their answers to these questions. What I offer you are merely my own ideas on the subject. Take them as you will.

atheistgirl said:
If I am close, what bothers me thinking about it, is how could the angels have rebelled? They were in heaven, with God, and nothing could be any more perfect - and yet, they revolted.

Good question. Perhaps the angels were made in a midway state between perfect knowledge of God and absolute ignorance. Perhaps they were in a state sort of like we are in now, where an act of faith is required which depends not on the mind being compelled to believe but through a movement of the will acting on “trust.” A lot of theologians compare the initial “moment” or “instant” of the angels creation before they fell equivalent to the lifetime of a human being.

girl:

So is there free will in heaven?

In one sense, yes, in another, no. Presumably, if one has renounced one’s own will on earth – if one has “overcome the self” so to speak – one gets what one wants in heaven: to lose the self and be absorbed in the other. So, it is sort of a divine suicide. One loses one’s will, but does so by an act of will: self-renunciation.

girl:

Can you decide ok, well, Ive lived a good life, I got to heaven, but to be honest, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be, never ending singing and praising, and start a union for harp players demanding shorter working hours, more pay, and seperate rooms from the flute players, thereby wrecking the harmony (oh, did you see what I just did there ) of heaven and get cast out?

Heaven is often viewed in material terms, because that is what we and the ancients most associate with happiness. But suppose in heaven you beheld the essence of goodness as such? Suppose all the things you like on earth, even in all the different ways you like them, were subsumed by an infinite moment of limitless good? Presumably, if such were the case, “boredom” would not be possible, for there would be no counter good which could lure the will away.

girl:

When God made the angels he must have known one would rebel?

Yes. If he is omniscient he certainly knew they would.

girl:

And this is a theme that I find interesting. God made the angels - but one rebelled so he had to make Hell to send him to - but He would have known that was going to happen.

Perhaps Hell is the most merciful place for such a being to exist? If God is all good, then the existence of a creature in Hell must be better than the non existence of the creature.

girl:

Then he made Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall, and bring sin and detruction into his creation, but He did so anyhow. Then he wiped the whole lot out apart from Noah (?) in a flood and started again.but He knew he’d have to. Then He ended up losing it with the Israelites and numerous other tribes and inflicting all sorts of punishments on them, and finally He ended up sending His Son as human sacrifice for mankinds sins. But He knew this too.

If God is all good, perhaps every action he has ever done to his creation has always been the most merciful and good action that could be taken, given the free nature of the beings he created?

Good questions.

fhansen · Feb 23, 2011

So God’s an all-powerful being who decided to deny His own power and will in order to allow His creation to have* its* own power to freely act according to its will, and the rest is human history-except where He steps in to tweak things now and then.

The whole idea is that creation fell off track-as is made most evident by widespread human inhumanity to each other-and He’s always intended and worked to get it back on track again without forcing it, because He values the freedom He gave us, as we generally do. This is accomplished as we come to see or learn the perfection of His will, for ourselves, ultimately agreeing and aligning ourselves with it.

The central message of the Old Testament is that man’s incapable of getting himself on track and staying there, even if He’s told how to do it. The central message of the New Testament is that, with Gods initiative and direct help, man can get back on track, by finally learning his need for God and freely accepted His help. This must be accomplished individually but it’s also necessarily a corporate endeavor, the individual turning to God with the help and testimony of others, until all creation is turned fully back to Him-on track-to the extent we’re all willing.

The guideline for knowing if man is on track is if he’s come to learn the value of love, which is the chief attribute of God, the foundation of the universe, and act according to this value himself in his relationship with God and man.

danserr · Feb 23, 2011

It’s a little hard to know how to respond to all of that since you’ve packed alot in there, but I’ll make some comments and see if any of it makes sense. Maybe it’s time for you to look into reading a summary of what Christians think, CS Lewis Mere Christianity is a possibility, also, more recently, NT Wright’s Simply Christian.

As to the fall of the angels, there is no certainty on the issue, but some fascinating ideas on it. In the following link, Fulton Sheen mentions briefly one of the thoughts. youtube.com/watch?v=OW7Ti9bkqi8
I like the speculation here, I think it is a very nice thought.

Another different but related idea, is mentioned in Mere Christianity, when CS Lewis asks how the fallen angels went bad? He affirms that we probably can’t know for sure, but suggests that when you have a self, there is suddenly the temptation to put that self first, maybe even before God. But in doing that, one rejects the source of all goodness, happiness, and joy.

Hell, then is not so much a place that God made, but the willful separation from God of those who reject Him. As Peter Kreeft says, God is a gentleman, He does not force anyone. And those who choose to separate themselves from Him, he allows to do so. But here is the problem. God is the source of all goodness, joy, and happiness; those who separate themselves from Him, also separate themselves from the those things. And separation from God is hell. How can it not be? But it was a self-chosen separation.
-Even in this world, you see people who would rather be miserable than have their own self-will crossed. A child (or teenager) who would rather go into their room an pout than simply say sorry and be friends. I don’t think it’s hard to imagine that something like this could have happened to the fallen angels.

So it’s not really a matter of God creating hell. He created free beings, and freedom allows for the existence of hell is those being choose to reject him. Actually, Fulton sheen once remarked "hell is the final guarantee of human freedom, that a soul may forever raise its clenched fist in the air at God and say non serviat! (I will not serve).

Yes, there is free will in heaven. But it is a certain kind. Go to you tube and run and search for “fulton sheen and freedom”. youtube.com/watch?v=muLMGHh34jk (actually, there it is). He distinguishes 2 kinds of freedom, “freedom from,” and “freedom for.” The first means I am free from external constraint, the second is the purpose of that freedom. The purpose of our freedom is to chose (or reject) God. There will only be the second kind of freedom in heaven, because we will have made our choice.
-An example on a smaller scale. A man marries a woman. He was free from contraint, for the purpose of choosing a woman to marry. At that point he is no longer free to choose another woman. (else, he will find he is not free to have a happy marriage). someone who finds the right spouse does not wish for another. When we have freely chosen God, we will not wish for another.

Those who get to heaven will not get bored. Human desire is infinite, and it would take an infinite God to satisfy it. Luckily, we have that.

Two excellent books to read on heaven and hell are CS Lewis’s The Great Divorce and NT Wright’s Surprised by Hope.

So then, you ask about God knowing all this bad stuff would happen. There are several answers concerning this, but one is to point out that If God did know all this would happen, and he created anyway, then He must have known that in the end it would be worth it. Heaven is hard to imagine, and it is true that beings with free will have made a mess of the world; but you can’t lose sight of the purpose of it all, heaven. To be united forever with the source of all goodness and happiness is hard to imagine. (Hence why those books I suggested could be useful), but I think that given how marvelous is the joy of a saved soul forever united with God, that God must have know it would all be worth the risk of giving his creatures free will.

tonyrey · Feb 24, 2011

atheistgirl said:
If I am close, what bothers me thinking about it, is how could the angels have rebelled? They were in heaven, with God, and nothing could be any more perfect - and yet, they revolted.
So is there free will in heaven?

Without free will a person is incapable of genuine love. The rebellion of the angels is an Old Testament myth which should not be interpreted literally. It may well be taken to mean simply that God has created other beings who have chosen to live for themselves rather than for Him.

Can you decide ok, well, Ive lived a good life, I got to heaven, but to be honest, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be, never ending singing and praising, and start a union for harp players demanding shorter working hours, more pay, and separate rooms from the flute players, thereby wrecking the harmony (oh, did you see what I just did there ) of heaven and get cast out?

Your notion of heaven is more akin to hell! A state of dissatisfaction, revolt, isolation from others, separatism and apparent independence which leads to frustration and misery… The whole point of life is that we are free to choose what to believe and how to live.

When God made the angels he must have known one would rebel?
And this is a theme that I find interesting. God made the angels - but one rebelled so he had to make Hell to send him to - but He would have known that was going to happen.

Hell is not made by God but by those who reject Him.

Then he made Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall, and bring sin and destruction into his creation, but He did so anyhow.

Foreknowledge does not entail compulsion.

Then he wiped the whole lot out apart from Noah (?) in a flood and started again but He knew he’d have to.

An Old Testament myth!

Then He ended up losing it with the Israelites and numerous other tribes and inflicting all sorts of punishments on them…

More mythology!

… and finally He ended up sending His Son as human sacrifice for mankind’s sins. But He knew this too.

Jesus was not a scapegoat who was punished for our sins but the Son of God who chose to liberate us from evil with the power of His love.

With the greatest of respect to all believers and speaking as an ignorant and not well informed atheist, so please dont take offense, but it seems that just about nothing worked out as planned?

Everything has worked out exactly as God intended - that each of us should be capable of self-determination and shape our own destiny. If you deny the existence of heaven and hell you are in effect denying the reality of freewill - and of good and evil… Do you believe we are just biological machines?

Betterave · Feb 24, 2011

atheistgirl said:
I dont know very much about heaven or hell or how it came about.

That’s okay: none of us does.

So is there free will in heaven?

Yes; heaven is where the will is fully free. On earth, the freedom of the will is hampered (more or less) by ignorance and by our inclinations to sin.

Can you decide ok, well, Ive lived a good life, I got to heaven, but to be honest, it’s not all it’s cracked up to be, never ending singing and praising, and start a union for harp players demanding shorter working hours, more pay, and seperate rooms from the flute players, thereby wrecking the harmony (oh, did you see what I just did there ) of heaven and get cast out?

Funny, but no.

atheistgirl · Feb 24, 2011

tonyrey said:
An Old Testament myth!

More mythology!

Thanks for all the replies so far. I promise Im reading them, even if it takes me a while to come back and respond - if a response is necessary or if the reply prompts something else in my mind - so I appreciate people taking the time and trouble to reply. Some Ive had to read and reread then read again, buut when they sink in, there’s some quality food for thought in them.

As to the above, tonyrey, youve mentioned myth a few times. Would it be possible to tell me what parts of the old books are myth, and what parts really happened? Or is that not possible? If it’s not, and it’s a dumb question, please excuse me, Im not trying to be rude or cause offense, but my level of ignorance may inadvertantly cause both

Sarah x

vz71 · Feb 24, 2011

atheistgirl said:
So is there free will in heaven?

Yes, there is.
Completely unencumbered by sin.

How often have we seen people yield to peer pressure rather then do what they want?
Just what decision would be made otherwise?

As to why the angels rebelled…they had not the full beatific vision of God. Merely a choice to serve God or not. Once their decsion was made, those that chose to serve God were granted the full vision of God.

Abundant · Feb 24, 2011

The book of Genesis tells the story of the fall of man, and in Isaiah you will find a few verses about the devil. Most of what you are refering to is popular “Christian Mythology,” which has no actual basis in biblical teaching. Much of the artwork in regards to angels, satan, and hell come from a book by John Milton called “Paradise Lost.” It’s fascinating because as you read it, you find yourself thinking…“Wait! I thought that was in the Bible.”

Then you look, and lo and behold—it’s not there!!

If you don’t have time to read it (or don’t want to get all caught up in the imagery and language, then just check out the SparkNotes version on the web.

tonyrey · Feb 24, 2011

atheistgirl said:
Would it be possible to tell me what parts of the old books are myth, and what parts really happened?

I’m not an Old Testament scholar but it seems reasonable to believe the oldest books like Genesis which date from over 800 years before Christ are less historical than those written subsequently. It is remarkable that the book of Isaiah which contains detailed prophecies of the Messiah was written as long ago as 700 years BC…

Betterave · Feb 25, 2011

vz71 said:
As to why the angels rebelled…they had not the full beatific vision of God. Merely a choice to serve God or not. Once their decsion was made, those that chose to serve God were granted the full vision of God.

…?

Do you have a reference for that?

vz71 · Feb 25, 2011

Betterave said:
…?

Do you have a reference for that?

Other then the ramblings of a very old priest with a hard time staying on topic…no.

Betterave · Feb 25, 2011

vz71 said:
Other then the ramblings of a very old priest with a hard time staying on topic…no.

LOL! Okay, just checking!

PAboy57 · Feb 27, 2011

Dear Sarah,

You are asking very valid questions that deserve honest answers. None of us can provide you the level of detail you seek on this type of forum. If you truly want to understand God, the angels and the fall of some of them, creation of man, man’s fall, and so forth you will have to do some reading.

I urge you to check out this site:

scborromeo.org/ccc/ccc_toc2.htm

This is the outline to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Simply click on the area of interest and begin reading. You can then decide for yourself what you want to believe.

I would suggest breaking it down into pieces. Do some reading and then ask questions for further clarification. I hope you follow up with this as there is so much valuable information contained in its pages.

God Bless.

Elena_Wayne · Feb 28, 2011

God is the alpha and omega - the beginning and the end. He says His ways are not our ways, so we can’t always understand why things are done the way they are done, but everything will be revealed to us. God’s plans are always good and they always work out.

You can find the Bible online to view for free. This will answer your questions pretty quickly. The book of John is always a good place to start, then move onto Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews…etc… It’s not too long of a read. Take it slowly and don’t feel overwhelmed.

Here is one place to find the bible for free.
www.biblos.com

hansgeorg · Mar 2, 2011

atheistgirl said:
I dont know very much about heaven or hell or how it came about. But as for hell and the devil I think it is something to do with angels rebelling and being cast down to hell, then God making Adam and Eve in paradise, then them messing it up, and the rest is history. Is that close? If it’s not, when youve stopped laughing at me, can you recommend some good reading that would fill in the gaps.

hansgeorg · Mar 2, 2011

atheistgirl said:
When God made the angels he must have known one would rebel?

And this is a theme that I find interesting. God made the angels - but one rebelled so he had to make Hell to send him to - but He would have known that was going to happen. Then he made Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall, and bring sin and detruction into his creation, but He did so anyhow. Then he wiped the whole lot out apart from Noah (?) in a flood and started again.but He knew he’d have to. Then He ended up losing it with the Israelites and numerous other tribes and inflicting all sorts of punishments on them, and finally He ended up sending His Son as human sacrifice for mankinds sins. But He knew this too.

With the greatest of respect to all believers and speaking as an ignorant and not well informed atheist, so please dont take offense, but it seems that just about nothing worked out as planned?

Well, he knew all that and he had plan C (C as in Christ) ready for it.

jedicri · Mar 11, 2011

atheistgirl said:
I dont know very much about heaven or hell or how it came about. But as for hell and the devil I think it is something to do with angels rebelling and being cast down to hell, then God making Adam and Eve in paradise, then them messing it up, and the rest is history. Is that close? If it’s not, when youve stopped laughing at me, can you recommend some good reading that would fill in the gaps.

sacredheart.com/The_Mystical_City_of_God_Book_01_Chapter_03.htm

If I am close, what bothers me thinking about it, is how could the angels have rebelled? They were in heaven, with God, and nothing could be any more perfect - and yet, they revolted.
So is there free will in heaven? …
When God made the angels he must have known one would rebel?
And this is a theme that I find interesting. God made the angels - but one rebelled so he had to make Hell to send him to - but He would have known that was going to happen. Then he made Adam and Eve, knowing they would fall, and bring sin and detruction into his creation, but He did so anyhow. Then he wiped the whole lot out apart from Noah (?) in a flood and started again.but He knew he’d have to. Then He ended up losing it with the Israelites and numerous other tribes and inflicting all sorts of punishments on them, and finally He ended up sending His Son as human sacrifice for mankinds sins. But He knew this too.
With the greatest of respect to all believers and speaking as an ignorant and not well informed atheist, so please dont take offense, but it seems that just about nothing worked out as planned? I think that’s, well, I dont know, odd I suppose, for an all powerful being.
Sorry, I think this started as a question of some sort, then I hesitated as I was thinking, and now I think Im just rambling. Sorry.

Sarah x

**The Mystical City of God **

Although the Catholic Church teaches that no person is obligated to believe in private revelation, reading and contemplating on the private revelations of the saints, provided that these private revelations do not contradict church teaching, can only serve to increase our love and understanding of God and His holy and infinite goodness. Since the life of Jesus is so closely intertwined with that of His Blessed Mother, and since any consideration of Mary always leads us back to Jesus, please find below, selections from the text of The Mystical City of God, The History and Life of The Blessed Virgin Mary.

sacredheart.com/MysticalCityOfGod.htm

Enjoy!

How did it go wrong? Free will in heaven?

atheistgirl

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The_Exodus

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fhansen

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danserr

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tonyrey

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atheistgirl

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vz71

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tonyrey

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