How did Jesus end The Our Father?

[Ben_F]

I like to believe that Jesus ended with Deliver us from evil, then in response, humanity added the for the Kingdom and the Power part. It´s there. We say it all. It´s a very good confirmation on the other six petitions. God Bless:thumbsup:

 

[jlhargus]

Recognize conjecture when you see it. Statements that it is not original are conjecture. The earliest existing document outside of the New Testament supports its use in the prayer.

mark

 

[jlhargus]

It comes from the east.

It is in the liturgy of St John Chrysostom and Saint Basil, a priests prayer, essentially a form of doxology. It is also in the Liturgy of Saint James, the forerunner of the liturgy of St John and arguably the oldest continually used liturgy of all, in use from Antioch in Syria all across asia, in southern India and had even reached China by the seventh century. I wouldn’t claim the turn of phrase is Apostolic (although it might be), but it comes from very early in Christian history. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if it was also once in use in one of the lost western liturgies.

If f it was discovered in the margins of scripture I am quite sure that was because the manuscripts were Greek, and they were brought west at the beginning of the renaissance from Orthodox monasteries. Among these many volumes would be the Textus Receptus that Erasmus worked on.

JL: I would agree with you although I would say it is liturgical, Apostolic Oral Trandition, and not part of inspired scripture.

 

[jlhargus]

While not present in most ancient biblical manuscripts, it is interesting how, “for thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever,” has been usurped by protestants and is contained in some protestant translations of the Bible when it was originally part of the catholic liturgy.

JL: I would say this is a great example of Protestant’s using an oral Apostolic Tradition as the Word of God, which is what oral Apostolic Tradition is, Word of God, not found in the written Tradition of inspired scripture…

 

[crazzeto]

It comes from the east.

It is in the liturgy of St John Chrysostom and Saint Basil, a priests prayer, essentially a form of doxology. It is also in the Liturgy of Saint James, the forerunner of the liturgy of St John and arguably the oldest continually used liturgy of all, in use from Antioch in Syria all across asia, in southern India and had even reached China by the seventh century. I wouldn’t claim the turn of phrase is Apostolic (although it might be), but it comes from very early in Christian history. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if it was also once in use in one of the lost western liturgies.

If f it was discovered in the margins of scripture I am quite sure that was because the manuscripts were Greek, and they were brought west at the beginning of the renaissance from Orthodox monasteries. Among these many volumes would be the Textus Receptus that Erasmus worked on.

It wasn’t “discovered” in the margines of a bible, the West always used the doxology. It never went away. What happened was it was in the margines, and along the way a translator got confused and thought it was a part of sacred text and put it where he would have been used to hearing it (and where it would have been margined), after the Pater Noster.

God bless,

 

[SyCarl]

JL: I would say this is a great example of Protestant’s using an oral Apostolic Tradition as the Word of God, which is what oral Apostolic Tradition is, Word of God, not found in the written Tradition of inspired scripture…

It wasn’t really using Apostolic Tradition. It was in the Textus Receptus version of the Greek New Testament put together by Erasmus which is pretty much the Byzantine or Majority.Text but with the Johannine Comma included. That is why the King James Version and the New King James Version have it since they used the Textus Receptus. Bibles based on the Critical Text have it in a footnote is at all.

 

[Hesychios]

It wasn’t “discovered” in the margines of a bible, the West always used the doxology.

There are many doxologies, at least three common one’s. We are not discussing the Gloria Patri nor the Gloria in Excelsis Deo, as such, but the phrase quoted here, directly after the Our Father…

"For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, now and forever … " or similar wording.

It is a priest’s response, part of the priests’ portion of the liturgy in the east.

It is always said as a magnification or response to the Our Father in liturgical settings, like Divine Praises (Orthodox Liturgy of the Hours) and also the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. A Greek (or perhaps Syrian or Coptic) scribe or monk wrote it into an early manuscript and it was copied a lot by other Greek monks, until one of these later editions was carried west and used by scholars and reformers for study.

This is not a story about the Gloria Patri.

 

[JackQ]

It comes from the east.

It is in the liturgy of St John Chrysostom and Saint Basil, a priests prayer, essentially a form of doxology. It is also in the Liturgy of Saint James, the forerunner of the liturgy of St John and arguably the oldest continually used liturgy of all, in use from Antioch in Syria all across asia, in southern India and had even reached China by the seventh century. I wouldn’t claim the turn of phrase is Apostolic (although it might be), but it comes from very early in Christian history. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if it was also once in use in one of the lost western liturgies.

If f it was discovered in the margins of scripture I am quite sure that was because the manuscripts were Greek, and they were brought west at the beginning of the renaissance from Orthodox monasteries. Among these many volumes would be the Textus Receptus that Erasmus worked on.

So, is it in the New Testament text used by the Orthodox? I was wondering about that.

 

[Little_Mary]

Recognize conjecture when you see it. Statements that it is not original are conjecture. The earliest existing document outside of the New Testament supports its use in the prayer.

What is this “earliest existing document”?

 

[Rightlydivide]

Covered earlier in the thread Little Mary.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Covered earlier in the thread Little Mary.

Wouldn’t it have been just as easy to type ‘Didache’.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Are we all in agreement that His words end with “And deliver us from evil. Amen”

Or do some believe that “For thine is the kingdom, etc…” is part of the original prayer?

Just curious.

Here’s the prayer in Luke 11

Luke 11
2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3Give us day by day our daily bread.

4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Here it is in Matt 6

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Either way is completely biblical.

 

[JRRTFAN]

I think we all agree that Jesus ended it “and deliver us from all evil”. I remember, as a kid, that the non-catholic religions said “for thine is the power…” after the Lord’s Prayer. Always thought it was beautiful. I wish I knew where it came from.

In Mass, after the Our Father, the priest prays: deliver us Lord, etc. We then say a version of: for thine is etc. So it was in the Mass of olden times when a scribe picked up that line and added it to notes. Eventually it found its way into the Textus Receptus, which is the ancient manuscript from which the King James Bible was translated. The KJV, to this day, has this addition to the Lord’s Prayer in Mt. 6.

The Textus Receptus, however, is not the oldest known manuscript anymore and all modern bible versions, Protestant and Catholic, dispense with the addition although Protestants cling to the wording of old (which is fine with me but they are NOT the words our savior taught us) when they are praying it, even if their NIV, ESV, NASB does not contain the words. (Most evangelicals and fundamentalists do not habitually pray the Lord’s Prayer because of that nasty line “forgive us our trespasses as we forgive…” which has all the earmarks of works righteousness, which they consider anathema,)

One of my colleagues, a Catholic bashing Baptist of long standing, went to a Catholic funeral recently. Upon return he jumped me with: “So, JRRTFAN, what gives your priest boy the right to take words out of the Lord’s prayer?” After I explained the above to him he was unable to offer any reply.

 

[JRRTFAN]

Here’s the prayer in Luke 11

Luke 11
2And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

3Give us day by day our daily bread.

4And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.

Here it is in Matt 6

9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Either way is completely biblical.

Actually, either way is completely King James biblical but not oldest available manuscript biblical (we find a number of the same things popping up in the Douay Rheims Challoner where the source material for the Vulgate, from which the DRC was translated, is not the oldest available now.)

 

[crazzeto]

There are many doxologies, at least three common one’s. We are not discussing the Gloria Patri nor the Gloria in Excelsis Deo, as such, but the phrase quoted here, directly after the Our Father…

"For Thine is the Kingdom, the Power and the Glory, now and forever … " or similar wording.

It is a priest’s response, part of the priests’ portion of the liturgy in the east.

It is always said as a magnification or response to the Our Father in liturgical settings, like Divine Praises (Orthodox Liturgy of the Hours) and also the Orthodox Divine Liturgy. A Greek (or perhaps Syrian or Coptic) scribe or monk wrote it into an early manuscript and it was copied a lot by other Greek monks, until one of these later editions was carried west and used by scholars and reformers for study.

This is not a story about the Gloria Patri.

Clarification, in this confersation when “the doxology” is used it is referring to this specific doxology and does not preclude the existance of other doxologies =)

Edit
So for further clarification, it’s not that this doxology needed to be “found”, it was never lost. It was always used by the faithful (probably since the time of the actual 12 apostles) and we’ve never “lost” it.

 

[Hesychios]

Clarification, in this confersation when “the doxology” is used it is referring to this specific doxology and does not preclude the existance of other doxologies =)

Edit
So for further clarification, it’s not that this doxology needed to be “found”, it was never lost. It was always used by the faithful (probably since the time of the actual 12 apostles) and we’ve never “lost” it.

Yes, basically.

It was not a common gloss in Latin manuscripts AFAIK - it was a gloss in a lot of Greek ones. Renaissance scholars saw this in imported Greek manuscripts and tended to give these volumes a lot of authority as genuine. I am pretty sure that is why the phrase turns up in the King James bible.

Now I see that this form of the doxology as a priest’s prayer does have a counterpart in the Mass of Paul VI, but I don’t know if it was present in the Tridentine, can you confirm that?

Thanks

 

[crazzeto]

Yes, basically.

It was not a common gloss in Latin manuscripts AFAIK - it was a gloss in a lot of Greek ones. Renaissance scholars saw this in imported Greek manuscripts and tended to give these volumes a lot of authority as genuine. I am pretty sure that is why the phrase turns up in the King James bible.

Now I see that this form of the doxology as a priest’s prayer does have a counterpart in the Mass of Paul VI, but I don’t know if it was present in the Tridentine, can you confirm that?

Thanks

Hrm, for some reason I was thinking it was in the Tridentine, but it is not. In the Tridentine it’s the Our Father, Libera Nos (Priests Prayer) and Fraction of the host followed by

Per eumdem Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum, Filium tuum (Through the same Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord)

Qui Tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus (Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God)

Per omnia s(ae)cula s(ae)culorum Amen. (World with out end Amen.)

sorry I don’t have a key code for (ae) letter in Latin.

 

[Esdra]

Does anyone know what the original Greek manuscripts say?

Have a look here.

It says:

“Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς, ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου· 10 ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου· γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς. 11 τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον· 12 καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν· 13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν, ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ. ὅτι σοῦ ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία καὶ ἡ δύναμις καὶ ἡ δόξα εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας· ἀμήν.”

Hope, someone can transliterate it. I can read Greek, but don’t know the transliteration.

 

[Esdra]

Hrm, for some reason I was thinking it was in the Tridentine, but it is not. In the Tridentine it’s the Our Father, Libera Nos (Priests Prayer) and Fraction of the host followed by

Per eumdem Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum, Filium tuum (Through the same Jesus Christ, Thy Son, our Lord)

Qui Tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus (Who liveth and reigneth with Thee in the unity of the Holy Ghost, God)

**Per omnia sæcula sæculorum Amen. (World with out end Amen.)

sorry I don’t have a key code for æ letter in Latin.**

May I give you a hand? Here it is: æ

But on the other hand: When I had Latin in school, we never bothered about the æ, we’ve always written ae. [in Austria, Central Europe.]
In fact, I’ve seen æ for ae the first time here (and when I researched the Latin Mass on an English website…)