How did Luther say: Only Faith?

[steve_b]

You know Steve, the CC still has the Log of the Schism with the East. We are really not in very good position to be judging others and finding them wanting, since the Schism predated the Protestant Reformation by about 500 years.

various Eastern Orthodox came back into union with the chair of Peter. They are the Eastern rite Catholics. Those who chose to stay in schism, that’s on THEM.
g:

Steve your attitude is not one that attracts others to unity.

How long has disunity been around? If we don’t tell people the truth, how are they to know it? If we are squishy on the truth how is that going to attract them? I would suggest THAT enables disunity to continue.
g:

I am relieved that it is not up to you to get to decide who qualifies!

818 “However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church.”

Actually, it covers all those who have been born and raised in ecclesial communities that are brothers in Christ, joined to us by baptism and faith.

And as I previously said,

Complete innocent ignorance can be a safety blanket for those who are in it. HOWEVER, that’s not meant to be a permanent safety blanket. As the CCC points out

[846 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 846) “… Hence they could not be saved who, **knowing **that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.”

Re: ignorance. i.e. lack of knowledge. Ignorance does NOT always remain innocent
[1791 (Catechism of the Catholic Church - Paragraph # 1791) “ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.”

Do you see the point being made? And how are they to be educated in the truth if one won’t tell them the truth?

Once they are given the truth, their ignorance is no longer innocent. They are then guilty, in this case, of schism and heresy etc etc whichever the case, if they don’t act to correct what they WERE ignorant of.

And in all charity, we are NOT being charitable to anyone by allowing them to stay in ignorance when we can share with them the knowledge they need to have.
g:

You are coming across as demanding and somewhat condescending. How do you expect this approach to bear any good fruit?

by quoting scripture and the CCC? Was Paul being condescending and demanding when he taught the following?

• Galatians 5:19-21 . The Greek word διχοστασίαςdichostasia= division / dissension / factions /sedition. It’s the same word used Rom 16:17. Do you see the consequences for that sin if one remains in it (Gal 5:21) ? Do you see any expiration date to those warnings or the consequences? I sure don’t

g:

The visible Church, perhaps, but none of us can read the heart but God, and only He knows those who are His. You keep insisting on this point which is opposite to what your Catechism states. There is only one Church, and all who are members of Christ are members of His One Body.

I was talking about those who are “in” the Church vs those who aren’t
.

Can a protestant walk off the street and go to confession in a Catholic Church? If they are “in” the Church they can do that…right? What’s the Church say about that?

· http://www.catholic.com/quickquesti...ed-on-the-lord-may-i-confess-my-sins-to-a-pri

iow they are not “in” the Church.
g:

And as far as “protestant Catholics”, I think there are probably more of them than there are non-denoms. They are also called nominal Catholics or cafeteria Catholics. They protest the Teachings of the Church, defy the Code of Canon Law and yet, still lcain they are Catholic.

As St James said (paraphrased)
Don’t tell me who you are, show me by your actions.

If one stays a protestant, they are protestant NOT Catholic. They want to be Catholic? Then come into the Church and remain there.
g:

I am not sure what your goal is by continually emphasizing division. You seem to have a personal need to get met - not sure what it is.

Then in return, I’m not sure what your goal is de emphasizing truth. What personal needs are you trying to meet , I’m not sure what it is.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
Romans 5: 1-2 …through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access to this grace…

I believe Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is FAITH.

**If that is the case, then we are saved only by faith.
**

 

[fred_conty]

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
Romans 5: 1-2 …through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access to this grace…

I believe Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is FAITH.

**If that is the case, then we are saved only by faith.
**

Yes, initially we are offered the grace to believe in Jesus. But after this grace is accepted, then works come into play. “Pick up your cross and follow me daily.” Or we must persevere to the end…be faithful in our lives. So faith and works are necessary.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

 

[JonNC]

Yes, initially we are offered the grace to believe in Jesus. But after this grace is accepted, then works come into play. “Pick up your cross and follow me daily.” Or we must persevere to the end…be faithful in our lives. So faith and works are necessary.

May God bless and keep you. May God’s face shine on you. May God be kind to you and give you peace.

I don’t think a Lutheran would disagree with this, except we have a discomfort with the term “accept”. Receive is more our expression, but yes, works are a necessary part of the life of the regenerate.

Jon

 

[Jim_Baur]

I believe Paul is telling us in Romans: That God is going to make us really good people here and now!

I believe that justification is within the heart (Romans 2: 29).

I believe that *logizomai (credited or counted) *is God’s measurement of that reality, that is, justification is in the heart.

When one measures a board, it is called “measure.”

When one measures one’s money, it is called “counted.”

God measured or counted Abraham’s heart and declared that Abraham believed and hope that God would accomplish in Abraham’s heart what God promised–children and a promise land.

(SORRY if this is too hard to read; it is extraordinarily difficult for me to write my thoughts.)
To believe exists in the inner man/person/soul.

It is measured/accounted/credited.

Faith really exists; it has ontic reality in the heart/soul.

Faith is a grace/gift.

Grace: love, faith and hope. They are homogenous. They are all blended or joined together. They don’t exist by themselves.

Justification is in us and “seen” by God.

I believe Romans is yelling: God promised to make you good; He keeps His promise. You are good and growing in goodness. Moses’ Ten Words: You will not murder. You will not steal. You will not commit adultery. They are promises.

I do not do any of those–It is His Love–Life-Grace in me that makes me good here and now.

BUT I AM GROWING, TOO. The Kingdom parables address this.

Romans 4: 16 For this reason, it depends on Faith, so that it may be a gift and the promise may be guaranteed to ALL his descendents, not only those who adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is Father of us all.

 

[Jim_Baur]

On some occasions, I believe for Paul that Faith/Jesus Christ or Jesus Christ/Faith.
**In that sense, for all of humanity, we are saved by Faith alone, that is, we are saved by Jesus Christ alone.
**

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
Romans 5: 1-2 …through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access to this grace…

 

[Jim_Baur]

I really believe that chapter five yells that God’s love being poured into our hearts is what compels us be love, believe, and grow.

I connect that to all of Scripture. However, one great connection is Luke 10: 25-29. This is the conversation between Jesus and a Jewish man. It is just before the parable of the Good Samaritan. How does one inherit eternal life–love!

The central idea is: One INHERITS ETERNAL LIFE by love. It begins during this life.

Agape begets zoe. * Bios* begets sarx.

 

[fred_conty]

I don’t think a Lutheran would disagree with this, except we have a discomfort with the term “accept”. Receive is more our expression, but yes, works are a necessary part of the life of the regenerate.

Jon

Jon, what happens when a Lutheran does not make works a necessary part of his life?

In the Catholic church if he doesn’t then he loses his holiness, not that of being a child of God, but his holiness in the eyes of God.

May the Lord bless and keep you.

 

[Jim_Baur]

One of Paul’s explanations of Justification:

Ephesians 4: 24 and put on the new self, created in God’s way in righteousness and holiness of truth.

---

Ephesians 6: 14 So stand fast with your loins girded in truth, clothed with righteousness as a breastplate, 15 and your feet shod in readiness for the gospel of peace.

---

I Thessalonians 5: 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation.

 

[RBushlow]

**Martin Luther ADDED words to the Bible that were not there. When he was confronted with this sin of adding to the Bible he replied: “Bacause Dr. Martin Luther will have it so!” **

Romans 3:28 states, “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law” (NKJV). Martin Luther, in his German translation of the Bible, specifically added the word “allein” (English ‘alone’) to Romans 3:28
When confronted with this, Martin Luther reportedly said, “I know very well that the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin or the Greek text” ****I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough." ****(Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127).

 

[Jim_Baur]

Jesus is the Faith!

Jesus is the Righteousness.

Jesus is the Love and not merely the Beloved (Davi).

Jesus is the Lamb!

Jesus is the Temple.

Jesus is the Word and not merely Ten Words or Decalogue or Ten Commandments.

Jesus is all the Promises.

And Jesus dwells in our hearts.

God can measure (count or accredit) it as so.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Luther’s primary basis for his sola fide theology was Galatians, where St. Paul speaks of the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old. The works of the Law in there refer to the Mosaic law. Luther interpreted it that St. Paul was pitting “faith” against all works whatsoever. Anything we do is “law” and everything God does is “Gospel” and there is no intersection of the two. Naturally, that’s a deep misunderstanding and leads to some absurd conclusions.

 

[guanophore]

Ephesians 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so no one may boast. 10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.
Romans 5: 1-2 …through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access to this grace…

I believe Paul is saying that Jesus Christ is FAITH.

**If that is the case, then we are saved only by faith.
**

Faith is a natural human function that is part of our created being. Human beings are built with the capacity for faith, and the ability to place that faith where they wish. We can put faith in other persons, wealth, power, evil, or God. If you do a word study in the Gospels you will see how many times Jesus uses the term “your faith”. This means the person He is addressing has applied their faith (or not). There were some places He could not work any miracles because of their lack of faith. At other times, Jesus frequently said “your faith has healed you”.

 

[Jim_Baur]

Luther’s primary basis for his sola fide theology was Galatians, where St. Paul speaks of the superiority of the New Covenant over the Old. The works of the Law in there refer to the Mosaic law. Luther interpreted it that St. Paul was pitting “faith” against all works whatsoever. Anything we do is “law” and everything God does is “Gospel” and there is no intersection of the two. Naturally, that’s a deep misunderstanding and leads to some absurd conclusions.

Did Luther realized that grace is a homogeneous reality?

Did he realize that grace, like the physical substance water, has many properties and each grace includes faith, hope, love, wisdom, power, beauty and the like?

Did Luther realize that righteousness was in Abraham’s inner person?

 

[guanophore]

**Martin Luther ADDED words to the Bible that were not there. When he was confronted with this sin of adding to the Bible he replied: “Bacause Dr. Martin Luther will have it so!” **

Don’t be too hard on Luther. He believed he was transmitting the sense of the Scripture - emphasizing the meaning that had been lost over time in a works based salvation.

 

[guanophore]

Did Luther realized that grace is a homogeneous reality?

Did he realize that grace, like the physical substance water, has many properties and each grace includes faith, hope, love, wisdom, power, beauty and the like?

Did Luther realize that righteousness was in Abraham’s inner person?

No. On the contrary, Luther misunderstood the concept of accounting - thinking that God was just doctoring the books. The deposit or credit for him was not real or actual, but just penciled in on account of Christ. So after we are justified, he thought, we were nothing more than “snow covered dunghills”, still rotten refuse at the core.

 

[Jim_Baur]

I am not being rude to Dr. Luther. If I gave that impression, that is not what I was doing.

When I carefully pray St. Paul’s writings, Paul wants us to love–not fight.

I do not like fighting, hating and the like.

I was really asking questions.

 

[Jim_Baur]

My point with Romans is this: Paul is telling us that we can be really, really, really, really, really good.

All of the inspired writers are great loving instruments of the Holy Spirit. They are not the old Adam.

They writers are new persons.

Paul is yelling, we all are new persons.

Just like the perfect Noah, Elizabeth and Zachariah and even Lot, just to mention a few.

The prophets were so good that they died for God.

We need not sin for the HOLY Spirit dwells in us.

The ones that follow the laws are good and new people.

The ones of the promise are new people too,

 

[Jim_Baur]

Abraham was justified, before the Word was made flesh.

Abraham was justified before the outward sign or symbol of circumcision.

Abraham’s heart was justified and his heart was circumcised before the outward sign of circumcision.

 

[gcnuss]

No. On the contrary, Luther misunderstood the concept of accounting - thinking that God was just doctoring the books. The deposit or credit for him was not real or actual, but just penciled in on account of Christ. So after we are justified, he thought, we were nothing more than “snow covered dunghills”, still rotten refuse at the core.

Guanophore:

I am curious as to the source for the quote “snow covered dunghills.” I have searched Luther’s works extensively and cannot find it in any of his writings. I think, although I might be wrong, that this is one of those apocryphal sayings that has a life of its own.