How did oral tradition fail the Copts?

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That’s news to me, too. There are plenty of things that we know from tradition that are not explicit in scripture: Trinitarian theology, how to pray the liturgy, many things about the lives of the Theotokos and the saints (quick: what were St. Mary’s parents’ names? If you said Joachim and Anna, congratulations…you know 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of what we know from tradition! ;)), etc. I mean, I guess you could argue that such things are no “illuminating”, but I kinda like knowing what to do in Church, and why we do it. Most of that comes from tradition outside of Scripture (either predating it or just not recorded there, but recorded elsewhere).
 
That’s news to me, too. There are plenty of things that we know from tradition that are not explicit in scripture: Trinitarian theology, how to pray the liturgy, many things about the lives of the Theotokos and the saints (quick: what were St. Mary’s parents’ names? If you said Joachim and Anna, congratulations…you know 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000th of what we know from tradition! ;)), etc. I mean, I guess you could argue that such things are no “illuminating”, but I kinda like knowing what to do in Church, and why we do it. Most of that comes from tradition outside of Scripture (either predating it or just not recorded there, but recorded elsewhere).
So hypothetically, if one Church said Joachim and Hannah were Mary’s parents; and they all got so worked up that it created schism, then how can we trust oral tradition?

This is what happened with some more important issues.
 
The Bible (not just the interpretation of it, but actually what it is/its contents) has been the cause of several schisms (e.g., Marcionites, some aspects of the Lollards and the Hussites, etc.), so how can we trust the Bible?

We don’t judge a doctrine, father, council, or any part of tradition by the controversy they create; we judge these things and people by how closely they conform to the apostolic faith. St. Athanasius the Apostolic was exiled five times by four different emperors during his long reign, yet he is remembered today as a pillar of Orthodoxy in a world that had in large measure fallen to the Arian heresy.

An aside: Sometimes schisms even happen for reasons that are, if not “good”, are certainly principled and guided by our concern for the preservation of the Church, e.g., in the modern-day Eritrea, the Church there has had its rightful Patriarch, HH Abune Antonios, removed by the government through the employ of a puppet synod, which set up a Patriarch in his place after putting HH under house arrest at an undisclosed location. Those who commune with the government puppet patriarch, who apparently goes by the name Dioskoros (I had to look it up because we don’t commemorate him in our liturgies, so I couldn’t remember what his name was), are by that action not in communion with the rest of the Church. Now, you could say we schismed from them (as I’m sure the Eritrean government would rather its hand-picked Patriarch be recognized outside of its borders, by the rest of the Church) or that they schismed from us (possibly not fair, as it is not the average Eritrean worshiper’s decision, but rather imposed on them as a whole), but the schism remains so long as this undesirable status remains as (read: as long as the government is trying to control the Church by deposing its legitimate Patriarchs at will). Similar things can be and are said regarding the Chalcedonian schism: From our side, it is the Chalcedonians (those who accepted the Tome of Leo as Orthodox and then tried to force it on the rest of us) who have accepted an unacceptable novelty, and therefore so long as they insist on this being accepted by everyone who would commune with them, we will not be among those (and vice versa: We do not accept the Christology of Chalcedon, so no Chalcedonians may commune with us). Again, your view that one side must have “failed” seems to me to be coming from the presupposition that the Chalcedonian side (Rome) was correct, so the fact that we exist as a separate communion because we will not accept their developments means we must’ve gone wrong at some point. Fair enough from a Chalcedonian point of view, I guess, but outside of that mindset there is no reason to assume that the Chalcedonian version of history is pure gospel truth, and hence no reason to be even asking “How did oral tradition fail the Copts?”, or “How can we trust tradition?”

Tradition of any kind did not fail the Copts, and we can and do trust tradition because the traditions that we speak of largely predate the canonization of the Bible (367 AD, in the 39th festal letter of HH Pope St. Athanasius is when you first see the list of NT books as you would recognize them; that same canon was accepted at later councils in North Africa and elsewhere; if my memory serves me, Rome would not officially close her canon until the Council of Trent, in response to Protestant tampering with books that had been considered canonical for centuries). This means that for centuries an average Christian’s interaction with and place within the Church as a whole, in the liturgy, was just as much informed by Christian tradition as recorded outside of the scriptures as it had been received and formed in his particular location (in Rome, in Alexandria, in Constantinople, in Antioch, etc.) as by being able to turn to a particular page and read words of scripture and “know what they mean”. There is no “knowing what they mean” outside of the community that knows what they mean (whether you call that a magisterium, a congregation, a whatever), and tradition is considered similarly: We in the COC place great emphasis on the Desert Fathers and monastic disciplines, for instance, because of what they mean for the particular kind of Christianity that developed in Egypt. This is probably less so the case in the West, which of course has its own monastic tradition ultimately descended from that of Egypt (as all Christian monasticism is), but has emphasized other matters more close to its heart. This is another way of looking at “tradition” outside of any particular point of disagreement. As I keep saying in this thread, neither the Coptic tradition nor the Latin and Byzantine traditions, nor any other tradition (Syriac, Armenian, Ethiopian, etc.) “failed”, or at least they cannot be blamed for schism. They’re different, but they were different when we were all in union, too. Schism happens due to inflexibility on both sides – while St. Cyril accepted John of Antioch (after a period of schism, actually), the Egyptian fathers at Chalcedon were unwilling to see the dyophysitism accepted there in a similar light. The Byzantines and Latins, for their part, were unwilling to see the miaphysite position that had been the standard in Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere as compatible with their new definition as promulgated in the Tome of Leo (underlined because it really is the Tome of Leo that is the crux of the problem between us and the Chalcedonians, and that’s a part of Graeco-Latin/Western tradition, not Coptic…Leo I was never part of the Church of Alexandria, and the clashes between he and HH Pope Discoros before Chalcedon have been argued to play a major role in how that council turned out – i.e., somebody was probably going down, and given the atmosphere in the wake of Ephesus II, it is not surprising who that someone ended up being…).
 
The Bible (not just the interpretation of it, but actually what it is/its contents) has been the cause of several schisms (e.g., Marcionites, some aspects of the Lollards and the Hussites, etc.), so how can we trust the Bible? .
.
I have said this like 4 times in this thread… But no… The browser is apparently blocking it…

:banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
I already explained the difference.

If every Church had a Bible with explicit contradicting statements then I would have troubles trusting who was correct as well.

If the Catholic Bible said Jesus walked on water and the Copts were excommunicated for having a Bible that says, “Jesus never walked on water” I would have no idea who to trust.

Now, oral tradition can contradict its self in that one group says Jesus has two nature’s and another says He has one. If the Catholic Bible said in Matthew 10:43 “This is exactly how my nature shall be defined.” While the Coptic Bible says a contradicting statement, then I would be concerned with Scripture.
 
I already explained the difference.

If every Church had a Bible with explicit contradicting statements then I would have troubles trusting who was correct as well.

If the Catholic Bible said Jesus walked on water and the Copts were excommunicated for having a Bible that says, “Jesus never walked on water” I would have no idea who to trust.

Now, oral tradition can contradict its self in that one group says Jesus has two nature’s and another says He has one. If the Catholic Bible said in Matthew 10:43 “This is exactly how my nature shall be defined.” While the Coptic Bible says a contradicting statement, then I would be concerned with Scripture.
Really!?

I’ll give you one for now, get ready for a lot more!

[Bibledrb]Matthew 16:18[/bibledrb]

We say this is Primacy is universal. They say it’s not.

One single example of 2 Churches differing opinions based on Scriptures, just like Tradition.

By your same logic we can’t trust Scriptures.
 
Really!?

I’ll give you one for now, get ready for a lot more!

[Bibledrb]Matthew 16:18[/bibledrb]

We say this is Primacy is universal. They say it’s not.

One single example of 2 Churches differing opinions based on Scriptures, just like Tradition.

By your same logic we can’t trust Scriptures.
You keep missing my point; your argument would work if the Coptic Bible said “you are Peter and upon you I will not build my Church.” Oral tradition is not tangible, therefore untrustworthy.
 
You keep missing my point; your argument would work if the Coptic Bible said “you are Peter and upon you I will not build my Church.” Oral tradition is not tangible, therefore untrustworthy.
You have to answer my question about how you validate the writings without the originals.

Before I address this point you are trying to make.
 
So other than a link, you don’t have an answer?
The study of textual criticism can give us a solid understanding of what exactly was written in the original autographs. It has now been scientifically proven that the textual variants are not major enough to affect the words of the Bible, less perhaps 3%. That means 97% of the Bible can be known for certain what is said.

The Bible is the most trustworthy ancient book there is, considering the extent of the manuscripts we have. There’s no reason to believe it’s been altered, and we also have the evidence of East and West; whether Greek or Latin having the same words in the Bible.

The Bible isn’t a game of telephone.
 
So hypothetically, if one Church said Joachim and Hannah were Mary’s parents; and they all got so worked up that it created schism, then how can we trust oral tradition?

This is what happened with some more important issues.
Well…have you ventured to ponder what happened with the oral tradition of the protestant reformers?

The reformation itself broke into different camps…into schism with themselves…and look at the result today…several thousand oral traditions all based on on individual interpretation of the bible.

And so the question…which oral tradition would you trust?

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

Aquinas believed that faith in Christ necessarily involves trusting the Church, because Christ cannot fail to guide and protect the development of His Church.

I came to see that I did not fully trust Christ, not because I thought Him untrustworthy, but because I had not understood that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head, and which He has promised to protect and preserve until He returns. I had not apprehended the ecclesial organ Christ established through which the members of His Body are to trust Him. I came to see that faith in Christ is not something to be exercised invisibly, from my heart directly to Christ’s throne, as though Christ had not appointed an enduring line of shepherds. Inward faith was to be exercised outwardly, by trusting Christ through those shepherds Christ sent and established. Jesus had said, “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”29

This is the sacramental conception of faith, not simply belief that, but belief through. This is the sacramental conception of the Church, the basis for the priest speaking in persona Christi.

But upon coming to understand that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head and which He promised to preserve, I came to see that the way to trust Christ is to trust His Church of which He is the Head, just as the early Christians trusted Christ precisely by trusting the teaching of the Apostles. Trusting the Apostles did not subtract from (or compete with) their trust in Christ. On the contrary, when Jesus tells the Apostle Thomas, “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed,”30 He implies that greater faith is required and shown in those who trust in Christ not by seeing Him, but by believing the testimony of the Apostles. Jesus refers to this way of believing when He prays, “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word.”31
 
The study of textual criticism can give us a solid understanding of what exactly was written in the original autographs. It has now been scientifically proven that the textual variants are not major enough to affect the words of the Bible, less perhaps 3%. That means 97% of the Bible can be known for certain what is said.

The Bible is the most trustworthy ancient book there is, considering the extent of the manuscripts we have. There’s no reason to believe it’s been altered, and we also have the evidence of East and West; whether Greek or Latin having the same words in the Bible.

The Bible isn’t a game of telephone.
Can textual criticism tell you:

Are they divenely inspired?

What is the exact number of books to include?

Or

Are you relying on a tradition to tell you that?
 
Can textual criticism tell you:

Are they divenely inspired?
I don’t pretend that the CC one day just made a prayer and were given a certain amount of books to believe in. They have faith that the books in the Canon should be included; there was much fighting over this fact. I also can’t find a book that I would include, outside of those included.
What is the exact number of books to include?

Or

Are you relying on a tradition to tell you that?
Well, your Canon is closed now; while the tradition of some Orthodox Church’s are still open to have more books than what yours has. If oral tradition were so tight, why didn’t the CC accept the extra books that some Orthodox Church’s have?
 
Well…have you ventured to ponder what happened with the oral tradition of the protestant reformers?

The reformation itself broke into different camps…into schism with themselves…and look at the result today…several thousand oral traditions all based on on individual interpretation of the bible.

And so the question…which oral tradition would you trust?

calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

Aquinas believed that faith in Christ necessarily involves trusting the Church, because Christ cannot fail to guide and protect the development of His Church.

I came to see that I did not fully trust Christ, not because I thought Him untrustworthy, but because I had not understood that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head, and which He has promised to protect and preserve until He returns. I had not apprehended the ecclesial organ Christ established through which the members of His Body are to trust Him. I came to see that faith in Christ is not something to be exercised invisibly, from my heart directly to Christ’s throne, as though Christ had not appointed an enduring line of shepherds. Inward faith was to be exercised outwardly, by trusting Christ through those shepherds Christ sent and established. Jesus had said, “The one who listens to you listens to Me, and the one who rejects you rejects Me; and he who rejects Me rejects the One who sent Me.”29

This is the sacramental conception of faith, not simply belief that, but belief through. This is the sacramental conception of the Church, the basis for the priest speaking in persona Christi.

But upon coming to understand that Christ founded a visible hierarchically organized Body of which He is the Head and which He promised to preserve, I came to see that the way to trust Christ is to trust His Church of which He is the Head, just as the early Christians trusted Christ precisely by trusting the teaching of the Apostles. Trusting the Apostles did not subtract from (or compete with) their trust in Christ. On the contrary, when Jesus tells the Apostle Thomas, “Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed,”30 He implies that greater faith is required and shown in those who trust in Christ not by seeing Him, but by believing the testimony of the Apostles. Jesus refers to this way of believing when He prays, “I do not ask in behalf of these alone, but for those also who
believe in Me through their word.”31
I agree with much of what you say. God is my God who is a loving God and would never abandon me. He came to Earth and died for us that we may believe in Him and have eternal life. He established His Church and He is the head of that Church.

And then the Church’s had some disagreements. So now the super powerful, mega popuated Church of the West can claim that they’ve always had the right tradition, likewise those to the East, those in Russia, those in Egypt, wherever.

Personally, I believe that Christ unites us all who believe in Him and are Baptized; and I know your Church says so too, at least at first. The issue is when one Church is so vigilante about it, other people questioning that Church and are harmed. Peter Waldo, John Wycliffe, Jan Hus, all of their followers, books and ideas. Not to mention Constantinople; as regrettable as it was, it happened because of a Church that thought war was God’s will.

All fallible decisions made by fallible men, sure I will give you that. But when a Church is made up of men, always making poor decisions and anyone who stands up to them is burned at a stake then eventually there will be a reform.

However I do now trust that God is with us all.
 
I agree with much of what you say. God is my God who is a loving God and would never abandon me. He came to Earth and died for us that we may believe in Him and have eternal life. He established His Church and He is the head of that Church.

Okay…did Jesus just leave that Church to itself? Or did He leave someone in charge here on earth…and that steward is to pass on that shepherding on to someone else when it is time to depart?
And then the Church’s had some disagreements. So now the super powerful, mega popuated Church of the West can claim that they’ve always had the right tradition, likewise those to the East, those in Russia, those in Egypt, wherever.
 
The most frustrating thing about this thread for me, is not that the person who started it is not convinced of another teaching or the catholic teaching.

It is the fact that the person who started it has still, after numerous explanations from several Catholics, not given even a hint that he acknowledges what the Catholic Church teaches about The Bible, Tradition, the Teaching Authority of the Church, and the Bishop of Rome. Every statement I have heard is a constant repetition of misunderstandings around each one of those subjects.

That is why so many people have gotten frustrated with this thread. Nobody will complain about people not believing in the Catholic teaching. But a lot of people get very frustrated when people make threads like this but don’t appear to acknowledge what the Catholic teaching actually is with any degree of accuracy.
 
I think it is evident from this thread that both Scripture and Tradition are unreliable unless the meanings of both are preserved from error by a teaching office. Anyone who rejects the magisterium is doomed to error. Now that may ruffle a few feathers and it may seem arrogant…but that is just the say it is.
 
I think it is evident from this thread that both Scripture and Tradition are unreliable unless the meanings of both are preserved from error by a teaching office. Anyone who rejects the magisterium is doomed to error. Now that may ruffle a few feathers and it may seem arrogant…but that is just the say it is.
👍
 
dronald,

The Catholic Church no longer considers the Coptic Orthodox Church to be monophysite heretics.

In 1973, Pope Paul VI, and the Pope of Alexandria, Shenouda III, signed a Common Declaration in which they agreed on the following:

=================
In accordance with our apostolic traditions transmitted to our Churches and preserved therein, and in conformity with the early three ecumenical councils, we confess one faith in the One Triune God, the divinity of the Only Begotten Son of God, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the Word of God, the effulgence of His glory and the express image of His substance, who for us was incarnate, assuming for Himself a real body with a rational soul, and who shared with us our humanity but without sin. We confess that our Lord and God and Saviour and King of us all, Jesus Christ, is perfect God with respect to His Divinity, perfect man with respect to His humanity. In Him His divinity is united with His humanity in a real, perfect union without mingling, without commixtion, without confusion, without alteration, without division, without separation. His divinity did not separate from His humanity for an instant, not for the twinkling of an eye. He who is God eternal and invisible became visible in the flesh, and took upon Himself the form of a servant. In Him are preserved all the properties of the divinity and all the properties of the humanity, together in a real, perfect, indivisible and inseparable union.​

God bless,

Rony
 
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