How did Secularism overthrow Christianity?

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Sorry, right. I had been looking at the profile for another poster and got them mixed up. At least I got the non-US right rather than assuming everyone is American, so hopefully that counts for something.😃
hehehe it’s ok
 
Secular is an adjective that is used to describe someone who is of the world rather than being spiritual. From a civic perspective it supports the separation of governmental authority between the church and the state. This concept is also supported by the Catholic Church.

To respond to the original question as to how we got into the mess we are today, I believe, is two fold. It begins with Martin Luther and the whole reformation period. Prior to this time most everyone in the world lived under a very clearly defined authority, whether civic or religious. The reformation led to the rejection of religious authority and of course the many of various Protestant religions. In a relatively short period afterwards can the period of enlightenment in France which rejected civil authority in the form of royalty. Everyman to be his own king.

While this new concept in civil government became established and grew there was still an influence of the church in the policy making and legislation. But this too was being challenged. But this thinking was generally limited to the well educated as the primary means of communicating this ideology to the masses was by word of mouth. Reading was still somewhat limited by the general public but was increasing.

Then movies and television come along in the 20th century. Although the content was controlled in the beginning these controls are all but gone. Everyone watches the movies or the TV programming.

The main problem with secularism is that it has no real values. Anything goes with no constraints is the direction. We already have abortion on demand, the mutilation of an innocent unborn human life. Infanticide and euthanasia in Denmark. The production and destruction of human embryos for so called science. There is no reason why the secular world cannot support the values from the Judeo-Christian religion. However, today there are too many with power who want nothing but the elimination of anything that has the look of religion.

God help our children.
 
Just peeking in to compliment the conversationalists participating here on this thread topic. I appreciate the eloquence and level of discussion and look forward to continuing to follow along. 🙂 :cool:

My having posted here will now make this topic easier for me to find. 👍 :o

Thanks,

~~ the phoenix
 
How could we have permitted secularism to become institutionalised in such a way? Were we just oblivious to the threat?

Maybe we suffered from the boiling frog syndrome. Things happened too subtly at first, and by the 20th Century, the water was already too hot, so by the time 60s happened, we were already too weak to jump out…
i agree with the boiling frog part .
However this is my take on the subject.

As Christians we must engage in spiritual warfare against the forces of darkness. AS a result many Christians developed spiritual “battle fatigue”.
As a result of this fatigue many people including some Christians “fell” for secularism and it’s false option of spiritual neutrality
 
i agree with the boiling frog part .
However this is my take on the subject.

As Christians we must engage in spiritual warfare against the forces of darkness. AS a result many Christians developed spiritual “battle fatigue”.
As a result of this fatigue many people including some Christians “fell” for secularism and it’s false option of spiritual neutrality
True to say that that underlying the history of this rise of secularism and fall of Christianity is a spiritual component /battle.
However, I would say that instead of fatigue, the secularaist have been excellent in convinving people that there is no supernatural.
So I would say it’s a lack of awareness.
 
In the early centuries, Christianity spread until it eventually became the State religion. In the last few centuries, Secularism, by which I mean atheism, agnosticism and the like instead of a strict dictionary definition, spread until it eventually became the State religion.

What did the early Christians do that they were able to convince the pagans that Jesus Christ is indeed Lord? What aren’t we doing to convince the Secularists that Jesus Christ is Lord? What have the Secularists been doing that they’ve been able to convince Christians that Jesus Christ isn’t Lord?
Hi

Paul added superstition and mystery to the present Christianity; so that made it vulnerable to reason. If Christianity abondons Paul and accepts the true teachings of Jesus as mentioned in Quran; the tables could turn.

Thanks
 
What did the early Christians do that they were able to convince the pagans that Jesus Christ is indeed Lord?
I guess christian superstition is more believable than pagan superstition. Christians also succeeded because they were able to integrate pagan practices into their own. Making pagan transition into christianity more comfortable.
What aren’t we doing to convince the Secularists that Jesus Christ is Lord?
Wrong question. What did christians do to convince non-believers & fellow christians that Jesus isnt Lord?

Answer: Inquistions, Theocracy, Religious Scandals, silly moral policies (like the prohibition of contraception).
What have the Secularists been doing that they’ve been able to convince Christians that Jesus Christ isn’t Lord?
We are good at pointing out how unreliable the bible & religious traditions are.
 
Answer: Inquistions, Theocracy, Religious Scandals, silly moral policies (like the prohibition of contraception).
I doubt that you know much about this. But I can’t resist: Outside of Calvin’s Geneva name one Christian Theocracy that ever existed in the world. Name one Catholic Theocracy of any kind.

CDL
 
I doubt that you know much about this. But I can’t resist: Outside of Calvin’s Geneva name one Christian Theocracy that ever existed in the world. Name one Catholic Theocracy of any kind.
the papal states

most medieval european nations arent exactly ‘theocracy’, but the influence/control of the popes were so powerful that they almost classify as religious rule.
 
the papal states

most medieval european nations arent exactly ‘theocracy’, but the influence/control of the popes were so powerful that they almost classify as religious rule.
The papal states weren’t technically theocracies. Certainly neither the Holy Roman nor Byzantine Empires were theocracies. You are objecting to any religious influence outside of Statism. You aren’t objecting to theocracies. I’m beginning to understand your posts. You do not understand the terms you keep throwing around. Relax. Read and learn. You will be much happier and so will we.

CDL
 
In the early centuries, Christianity spread until it eventually became the State religion. In the last few centuries, Secularism, by which I mean atheism, agnosticism and the like instead of a strict dictionary definition, spread until it eventually became the State religion.

What did the early Christians do that they were able to convince the pagans that Jesus Christ is indeed Lord? What aren’t we doing to convince the Secularists that Jesus Christ is Lord? What have the Secularists been doing that they’ve been able to convince Christians that Jesus Christ isn’t Lord?
Dear Junk,

First of all, I hate to call you “Junk” although you chose this nickname yourself. I believe that every human is intended to be a blessing to other human. We should understand that Jesus came to this world to provide a way to each and every human being. Jesus did not come to establish a political kingdom here on earth. Jesus also did not come to be a political leader too.
 
Hi

Paul added superstition and mystery to the present Christianity; so that made it vulnerable to reason. If Christianity abondons Paul and accepts the true teachings of Jesus as mentioned in Quran; the tables could turn.

Thanks
Dear Paar,

You keep on insisting that Paul is out of Christianity. From many previous thread, you have not provide us a single convincing proof. Come on Paar. Be realistic.
 
Secularism as we know it today was reinvented in 1648 at the end of the thirty years war with the Peace of Westphalia. I’m not sure it was intended but that was the outcome.

👍 😦 **And the Thirty Years’ War brought Catholicism & Protestantism into great discredit, because it was to some degree a religious war. There were others in the same period, which dovetailed into it; & there had already been the Wars of Religion from 1562 to 1598 in France. Result: exhaustion, & massive destruction. Massacre & slaughter & persecution are not the best ways of recommending Christianity - & if all that Christian zeal can do is cause civil war, treason, regicide, rebellion & murder (all of which were in evidence), it’s not clear that religion is good for the peace of a state 😦 - & the Thirty Years’ War was exceptionally destructive. **​

Unsurprising result - slow growth of something other than Christian faith.

A second thing that helped to destroy old certainties was missionary work, of all things: confidence in the chronology of the OT & in its accuracy in regard to human origins suffered from the discovery that the Chinese had their own chronology - which was not compatible with that of Genesis in any form.

The reason we have slid so far, or at least one reason, despite the heroic efforts of many, is that we are infected with the disease to some degree ourselves.
👍 👍 Exactly - Christians are far more pagan than they know, because they are not “totalitarian”: their, our, hearts are divided between God - and something else; we lack total commitment to God.
Everytime Catholics say “I don’t have to go to Church to be a Christian” or “Your truth is not my truth” or something like that we show that we are infected. We don’t wish the pain of ridicule and certainly not of martyrdom. It probably explains why third world Christians tend to be stronger in their faith than first world Christians.

CDL
 
In my view, a primary spiritual-level cause of the failure of Christendom has been in ignorance of the revelations given to the Saints of the keys Heaven desires us to use to defeat the dark spiritual forces that corrupt the minds of people.

THE ROSE-RAY

“If our age in its pride laughs at and rejects Our Lady’s Rosary, a countless legion of the most saintly men of every age and of every condition have not only held it most dear and have most piously recited it but have also used it at all times as a most powerful weapon to overcome the devil, to preserve the purity of their lives, to acquire virtue more zealously, in a word, to promote peace among men.”
(Pius XI, Encyclical Letter, Ingravescentibus Malis, On the Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary)

PRAYER REQUESTED BY MARY

In 1863 A Bernardine Sister was shown in spirit the vast desolation caused by the devil throughout the world. At the same time, she heard the Blessed Virgin telling her it was true, Hell had been let loose upon the earth, and that the time had come to pray to her as Queen of Angels and to ask of her the assistance of the Heavenly Legions to fight against these deadly foes of God and of men. “But, my good Mother,” she replied, “you who are so kind, could you not send them without our asking?” “No,” Our Lady answered, “because prayer is one of the conditions required by God Himself for obtaining favors.”

Then the Blessed Virgin communicated the following prayer, bidding her to have it printed and distribute it everywhere.

August Queen of Heaven, sovereign Directoress of the Angels, who didst receive from the beginning the mission and the power to crush the serpent’s head,
we beseech thee to send thy holy Angels,
that under thy command and by thy power,
they may pursue the evil spirits,

encounter them on every side, resist their bold attacks,
and drive them hence into the abyss of woe.
Most holy Mother, send thy Angels to defend us
and to drive the cruel enemy from us.
Amen.
 

And the Thirty Years’ War brought Catholicism & Protestantism into great discredit, because it was to some degree a religious war.​

It may have started as a religious war (something about the Protestant King of Bohemia who was being overthrown by the Hapsburgs calling on the Protestant kings of England and other countries to assist him) but it rapidly became just a power struggle, and in the end the French fought the Hapsburgs.

Anyway, I think your digging way back into the past for the answer your seeking, although all these events like The French Revolution played a role.

I would look more to the Industrial Revolution and the rise of free market capitalism.

Capitialism and Christianity are not incompatible (as with Marxism), but I think if you analyze the history, you’ll see most of the secularization really took off during that time period (from the late 18th century).

My own opinion, and you might want to read the British author Paul Johnson’s really not so good (even offensive at times, an early work of his) book on Christianity, The History of Christianity, is that essentially, the merchant classes and business men of the 18th and 19th centuries, didn’t want a strong institutionalized clergy regulating their markets or telling them what to do, and hence the rise of secularism, anti-clericalism, science, and the philosophies of Utilitarianism (espoused by men like the British philosopher Jeremy Bentham and in the New World by Benjamin Franklin (in his university, University of Pennsylvania) and the philosophy of Pragmatism.

You see that in America today. The business classes want free markets unregulated very minimally by any form of morality

If it (whatever it is) earns money or makes money, it has to be good.

So all the religion is thrown out of our cultural institutions, including the most important, the schools and universities, where the future workers and leaders come from.

From a stacked Supreme Court, we have a very broad interpretation of the First Amendment and what can be sold on TV, the internet, and, in my opinion, both major political parties, Republican and Democratic, are happy with this, so we have all this smut, pornography, and filthy language in the Media, movies, TV, Radio, because it sells.

I don’t see either American political party rushing to do anything about that or even talking about it as an issue.

If you watch the political talk shows on TV, you’ll even here them occassionally used the word “pragmatic”; of course, they never explain what the term means, but it is sort of coded language meaning that politician or so and so is more interested in making things work and the bottom line, than principles of religious morality.

I think there were some German 19th century social scientists who concluded that society had to become secular, so that “progress” and industry could adavnce and cash in.

It may have been Max Weber.

I wouldn’t get bummed out about it though.

I think the really most important think is to try and focus on your own soul and your salvation, and try to influence those around you.

By the way, people have been killing each other long before Christianity. The original pagan Romans had a religion, but they didn’t try to spread it or convert the people they conquered to it.

Most of the Roman leaders were followers of secular Roman and Greek philosophies like Stoicism.

Also, industrial wars like the American Civil War and the massively destructive First World War were not wars of religion.

Great Britain lost something like 750,000 to a million men in WWI, and both WWI and WWII finished off their ability to run their Empire.

WWI was a power struggle between the industrialized Empires Germany and Great Britain to see who would have the greater place under the sun. It was the war between two great Imperial powers and their allies. Germany declared war first.

And WWII wasn’t a religious war, and neither was the Cold War.

Maybe in the 1950’s, John Foster Dulles used a few religious terms during the very early Cold War, but that was it; Kennedy never put it in those terms, and Reagan used an analogy from a Hollywood movie, Star Wars, calling the USSR an “Evil Empire.”

Do you think Vietnam had anything to do about religion??

So since Christianity stopped playing a major role in society in the 18th century, human beings have continued to killing each other for other reasons than religion, and through using industrial tools to do it more efficiently and in greater numbers.

It isn’t that Christianity and Capitalism cannot coexist together; I would say that up until about the end of the nineteenth century they actuall did; it’s just that a lot of the more recent Free Market advocates and a lot of the business classes do not want a strong Christianity or religion to play any role in their activities because it would affect their ability to make as much money as possible.

And governments could gain as much revenue through taxes if, for instance, contraception was regulated or all the dirty stuff on TV programming was prohibited.
 
Made a mistake in the last sentence:

And governments could not gain as much revenue through taxes if, for instance, contraception was regulated or all the dirty stuff on TV programming was prohibited
 
In the early centuries, Christianity spread until it eventually became the State religion. In the last few centuries, Secularism, by which I mean atheism, agnosticism and the like instead of a strict dictionary definition, spread until it eventually became the State religion.

What did the early Christians do that they were able to convince the pagans that Jesus Christ is indeed Lord? What aren’t we doing to convince the Secularists that Jesus Christ is Lord? What have the Secularists been doing that they’ve been able to convince Christians that Jesus Christ isn’t Lord?
Weakness. It is so much easier (and pathetic) to have a religion that doesn’t demand chastity, charity, weekly mass attendance, confession, etc.
 
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