How did St Paul consider Jesus

[NoelFitz]

I am sorry to say I am disappointed with the replies to this thread. The fault may be mine in not defining more precisely my objective.

The post of James248 is not helpful - *So Jesus isn’t God?

So He lied when He said “Before Abraham was I AM?”*

I am sure most here would not claim Jesus is not God and few here would consider Jesus a lair.

To claim Jesus existed before Abraham may not be a claim to divinity.

Again may I point out that the focus of this thread is who did Paul think Jesus was?

 

[James248]

I am sorry to say I am disappointed with the replies to this thread. The fault may be mine in not defining more precisely my objective.

The post of James248 is not helpful - *So Jesus isn’t God?

So He lied when He said “Before Abraham was I AM?”*

I am sure most here would not claim Jesus is not God and few here would consider Jesus a lair.

To claim Jesus existed before Abraham may not be a claim to divinity.

Again may I point out that the focus of this thread is who did Paul think Jesus was?

He said, “I AM,” the name of God revealed to Moses at the burning bush.

And as for Paul, he says in Philippians 2:6, “Though He was in the form of God, He thought it not robbery to be equal to God.”

 

[jcrichton]

No, Thomas as Peter and Paul meant God the Father and Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”
2 Thessalonians 2:16 “may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father”
1 Thessalonians 3:11 “may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus direct our way”

Thomas finally understood that,

John 8:29 “the one who sent me is with me”

Hi!

…it’s curious how people jump to that understanding… when did the Jews use such expressions to demonstrate that they were astonished?

…how many other times do we find such expression in Scriptures?

…how many Jewish people called out to both God and someone else?

…consider also that if a person Calls on the Blessings of God, the Father, and they do not equate Jesus to being God, why would they think it necessary to include Jesus?.. and why is Thomas’ expression a singular event in Scriptures if all Jewish/Jewish Converts were in the habit of using “my God” as a sign of surprise/amazement?

Please rethink your eisegesis!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PNEUMA]

PNEUMA;14849886:

No, Thomas as Peter and Paul meant God the Father and Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:3

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”
2 Thessalonians 2:16 “may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father”
1 Thessalonians 3:11 “may our God and Father himself and our Lord Jesus direct our way”

Thomas finally understood that,

John 8:29 "the one who sent me is with me"So Jesus isn’t God?

So He lied when He said “Before Abraham was I AM?”

As Philip, you don’t get it. The Father and Son are one, they are in each other. Sometimes the Father speaks, sometimes the Son speaks.

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works”

That’s why Thomas said,

John 20:28 “My Lord and my God!”

 

[PNEUMA]

Hi!

…it’s curious how people jump to that understanding…

Well, Jesus had a conversation with Thomas and Philip about this, and it obviously got through to Thomas, that God the Father dwells in their Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:5-10 “Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works”

 

[James248]

As Philip, you don’t get it. The Father and Son are one, they are in each other. Sometimes the Father speaks, sometimes the Son speaks.

John 14:8 “Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works”

That’s why Thomas said,

John 20:28 “My Lord and my God!”

No, you don’t get it.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[PNEUMA]

No, you don’t get it.

John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This is not what Thomas had in mind, when he said “My Lord and my God” He was addressing God the Father who was in their Lord Jesus Christ.

BTW:

John 6:63 “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit”
John 4:24 “God is spirit”

So, yes the word is God.

 

[James248]

This is not what Thomas had in mind, when he said “My Lord and my God” He was addressing God the Father who was in their Lord Jesus Christ.

BTW:

John 6:63 “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit”
John 4:24 “God is spirit”

So, yes the word is God.

Let me post it again.

John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Let me break it down for you.

The Word existed in the beginning.
The Word was with God the Father, and the Word was God.
All things were made through Him.
The Word, the only Son of the Father, became flesh and dwelt among us and revealed His glory.

 

[jcrichton]

Well, Jesus had a conversation with Thomas and Philip about this, and it obviously got through to Thomas, that God the Father dwells in their Lord Jesus Christ.

John 14:5-10 “Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we will be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you all this time, Philip, and you still do not know me? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does his works”

Hi!

…wait, I thought that you were separating the Father as God and Jesus as Lord (this is what I thought was implied by the original post–that St. Paul ranks Jesus as an inferior to the Father); so can you clarify what you are expressing… are you stating that Thomas’ expression was, ‘my Lord,’ (meaning Jesus–as a subordinate to God, the Father) and ‘my God’ (meaning the Father as a different and higher form of God); so your exegesis of St. John 20:28 is that Thomas’s Confession was that, ‘Jesus is my Lord but God is my God?’

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

This is not what Thomas had in mind, when he said “My Lord and my God” He was addressing God the Father who was in their Lord Jesus Christ.

BTW:

John 6:63 “The words that I have spoken to you are spirit”
John 4:24 “God is spirit”

So, yes the word is God.

Hi!

…how do you come to such determination?

…what of the Holy Spirit?

Clearly you know that Scriptures Revealed that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, God, and the Spirit of the Son, God… so when is a Believer addressing the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit by expressing ‘my God,’ and what is the telling sing that the Believer is addressing the Frist, Second, or Third Person, as *God *or do you mean to intimate that only the Father is God?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PNEUMA]

Hi!

…wait, I thought that you were separating the Father as God and Jesus as Lord (this is what I thought was implied by the original post–that St. Paul ranks Jesus as an inferior to the Father); so can you clarify what you are expressing… are you stating that Thomas’ expression was, ‘my Lord,’ (meaning Jesus–as a subordinate to God, the Father) and ‘my God’ (meaning the Father as a different and higher form of God); so your exegesis of St. John 20:28 is that Thomas’s Confession was that, ‘Jesus is my Lord but God is my God?’

Maran atha!

Angel

No, the point is that Thomas understood that,

A. John 10:30 “The Father and I are one”

B. John 14:10 “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”

C. John 8:29 “the one who sent me is with me”

D. John 14:10 “I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does”

In other words, Thomas understood that there are two persons in front of him, God the Father and Jesus Christ their Lord.

Thomas finally saw God the Father, in Jesus

John 14:9 “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”

That’s why Thomas said,

John 20:28 “My Lord and my God!”

 

[PNEUMA]

Hi!

…how do you come to such determination?

…what of the Holy Spirit?

Clearly you know that Scriptures Revealed that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father, God, and the Spirit of the Son, God… so when is a Believer addressing the Father or the Son or the Holy Spirit by expressing ‘my God,’ and what is the telling sing that the Believer is addressing the Frist, Second, or Third Person, as *God *or do you mean to intimate that only the Father is God?

Maran atha!

Angel

At the time, the disciples knew nothing of this. Thomas was the first to understand that the Father and Son are one. That also the Holy Spirit is one with the Father and Son was understod later.

The words that proceed from the Father and the Son, are Holy Spirit.

Matthew 4:4 "But he answered, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

 

[jcrichton]

No, the point is that Thomas understood that,

A. John 10:30 “The Father and I are one”

B. John 14:10 “I am in the Father and the Father is in me”

C. John 8:29 “the one who sent me is with me”

D. John 14:10 “I do not speak on my own; but the Father who dwells in me does”

In other words, Thomas understood that there are two persons in front of him, God the Father and Jesus Christ their Lord.

Thomas finally saw God the Father, in Jesus

John 14:9 “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father”

That’s why Thomas said,

John 20:28 “My Lord and my God!”

Hi!

…couldn’t Thomas have thought, ‘Jesus, you’re my God and my Lord?’

…if not, would Thomas not be separating Christ, the Son, from the Father, as he would only accept the Father as God?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

At the time, the disciples knew nothing of this. Thomas was the first to understand that the Father and Son are one. That also the Holy Spirit is one with the Father and Son was understod later.

The words that proceed from the Father and the Son, are Holy Spirit.

Matthew 4:4 "But he answered, “It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone,
but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’”

Hi!

I do not question the development of the Church nor of the individual Believer; what I am questioning is your conclusion.

St. Thomas’s exclamation is not a Confession to two of the Persons of God; it is a Confession that Jesus Christ is his Lord and God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PNEUMA]

Hi!

…couldn’t Thomas have thought, ‘Jesus, you’re my God and my Lord?’

…if not, would Thomas not be separating Christ, the Son, from the Father, as he would only accept the Father as God?

Maran atha!

Angel

Hi!

I do not question the development of the Church nor of the individual Believer; what I am questioning is your conclusion.

St. Thomas’s exclamation is not a Confession to two of the Persons of God; it is a Confession that Jesus Christ is his Lord and God.

Maran atha!

Angel

No,

1 Corinthians 7:6 “for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ”

 

[NoelFitz]

May I , please, reiterate that I consider we have moved far from the original focus of this thread.
It started with:
So I would like to know what/who St Paul thought Jesus was. What did he mean by ‘Lord’ and ‘Son of God’?

This query has not been answered fully for me.

 

[jcrichton]

No,

1 Corinthians 7:6 “for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ”

Hi!

Did you know that the Jehovah Witnesses take a passage from Scriptures and they state something akin to ‘this is what God says,’ yet they miss the Message altogether?

Just quoting Scriptures does not mean that Scriptures support what we think is being said.

Look at this passage:

20 We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

(1 St. John 5:20)
Do you see the Message?

Jesus is God.

The Apostles do not understand God to be only the Father. They Know that Jesus is God.

They also do not relegate Jesus to a subordinate “god,” as the Jehovah Witnesses claim.

…and here’s what they Know about the Holy Spirit:

3 Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that **you have lied to the Holy Spirit **

and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? 4 Didn’t it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn’t the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? **You have not lied just to human beings but to God.” **(Acts 5:3-4)
Do you see the Message here?

The Holy Spirit is God.

St. Peter is stating that it is to the Holy Spirit, God, to Whom Ananias has lied.

First he makes it clear that the lie is to the Holy Spirit; then he qualifies that since he is the Temple of God, the Holy Spirit is working through him and the lie has not just been to the man in front of him but to the Holy Spirit, God, Working in and through him.

The Apostles were not confused about the Holy Trinity, at least not once the Holy Spirit Came to them at Pentecost!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

May I , please, reiterate that I consider we have moved far from the original focus of this thread.
It started with:
So I would like to know what/who St Paul thought Jesus was. What did he mean by ‘Lord’ and ‘Son of God’?

This query has not been answered fully for me.

Hi, Noel!

…sorry, tangents do happen; it is difficult for them not to happen…

…I am also sorry that I have not answered your query to your satisfaction… though if you slow down a little and reread my replies you will find that I’ve more than made a good effort to explain that St. Paul, as well as the other Apostles, understood Christ to Be God–not a “god” or a “subordinate God.”

Consider that even though Jesus became Incarnate, the Father was not removed from Worship; as well, consider that while the other Paraclete was sent Jesus did not become obsolete… and while the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God, only the Son, Christ Jesus, has been Revealed as the Head of the Church, which is Christ’s Body.

…so if we are to circumspect about Jesus position in the mind of the Apostles, why is the Church of Christ also the Church of God, but why is it that the Church is only the Body of Christ and not the Body of God… and why is it that Christ is the Head of the Church and not God?

The problem you are having is with vocabulary… you insist in seeing a distinction where there is none; the distinction is only in the way that the Persons of the Holy Trinity are understood to Function in the Church, which is the Body of Christ.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[NoelFitz]

JCrichton

Thank you for your courteous and thoughtful post to me.

I am still confused. I have gone through Romans tonight and many verses indicate to me that Paul thought God and Jesus were separate, 2;16, 5:1, 5:15, 7:25, 8:34, 10:9, 15:6.

The onus is on me to study more and to think, pray and reflect.

I agree that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, even though some now prefer to see it as the people of God.

Again no one has explicitly said what Paul meant by Lord. Generally when he referred to the OT he meant God was the Lord , and to the NT he meant Jesus was Lord. But what did he mean by Lord.

For a gentile son of god meant the offspring from intercourse between a god and a human. So the Roman centurion in the gospel knew what a son of god meant for him. For a Jew the idea of a son of God would not be literally true. I read in Wikipedia

• in the Old Testament “Father” is generally a metaphor; it is not a proper name for God but rather one of many titles by which Jews speak of and to God.*

So again I am very grateful to you. You challenge me, and do not make judgements about my commitment to the Church.

As you can see I am confused, but this is not too unusual for me.

 

[jcrichton]

JCrichton

Thank you for your courteous and thoughtful post to me.

I am still confused. I have gone through Romans tonight and many verses indicate to me that Paul thought God and Jesus were separate, 2;16, 5:1, 5:15, 7:25, 8:34, 10:9, 15:6.

The onus is on me to study more and to think, pray and reflect.

I agree that the Church is the mystical body of Christ, even though some now prefer to see it as the people of God.

Again no one has explicitly said what Paul meant by Lord. Generally when he referred to the OT he meant God was the Lord , and to the NT he meant Jesus was Lord. But what did he mean by Lord.

For a gentile son of god meant the offspring from intercourse between a god and a human. So the Roman centurion in the gospel knew what a son of god meant for him. For a Jew the idea of a son of God would not be literally true. I read in Wikipedia

• in the Old Testament “Father” is generally a metaphor; it is not a proper name for God but rather one of many titles by which Jews speak of and to God.*

So again I am very grateful to you. You challenge me, and do not make judgements about my commitment to the Church.

As you can see I am confused, but this is not too unusual for me.

Hi, Noel!

…here’s what I love about studying Scriptures… as I searched for one passage I found a different connection…

…let’s see if this can help bridge that issue (Old Covenant with New Covenant):

5 Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

(Romans 10:5-13)
Can you see how St. Paul counters the Old Covenant Demands with the New Covenant Gift? During the Old Covenant a Believer had to live by the Law (Leviticus 18:1-5); under the New Covenant the Believer Lives by the Gift of Life, through Faith… in Jesus (Galatians 2:19-21).

Verses 6 thru 8 demonstrate the Change in the Economy (Old to New Covenant).

Verses 9 and 10 demonstrate the Continuance the Father’s Work in the Economy of Salvation while allowing Christ, the Son, to be the Focal Point of the New Covenant, with the New Economy.

Now for the Change that stays the Same: Lord: in the Old Covenant the Father, God, was is the only Lord:

32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.

(Joel 2:32)
Compare:

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

(Deuteronomy 6:4-9)
Note the congruence on these passages (the Word of Life is Constant, as is the Lord of Life).

Verse 9 Transfers the Full Authority of the Title, “Lord” to Jesus… the Holy Spirit Reveals through St. Paul that the Believer must Confess that Jesus is Lord–yet, there could be only one Lord… and Lord in Revelation’s terms is not a human attribute but a Divine Attribute as Yahweh God, your Lord; here’s how we know that St. Paul understand the New Covenant Economy: Jesus: Lord: God:

7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. 9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

(Romans 14:7-9)

3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords:
His love endures forever. (Psalm 136:3)

10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands. (Hebrews 1:10)

13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God… 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
king of kings and lord of lords. (Apocalypse [Revelation] 19:13-16)
I hope this helps!

Noel, I love the opportunity to study Scriptures… if God allows me to assist your quest, I am grateful for the opportunity!

Maran atha!

Angel