How did the apostles know what time it was?

[Crusaderbear]

People in those times were more aware of the sky, they told time by the angle of the sun…as stated elsewhere, the actual times listed are probably for modern benefit.

 

[mythbuster1]

The quoted time is only accurate to the nearest hour- well within the capacity of a layman to discern from the sun’s position (or equivalently, the direction of shadows). Furthermore, in Jewish reckoning, daylight is always 12 hours, with the length of the hour varying throughout the year. So the tenth hour (4 pm) means the sun is 2/3 descended from its culmination.

 

[Wesrock]

The need for p(name removed by moderator)oint accuracy clocks and timekeeping really only came into play for most people when society industrialized and people needed to go to work on time and schedule train movements.

Otherwise p(name removed by moderator)oint accuracy really didn’t matter to most people, who were agrarian.

 

[Wm777]

I wanted to let everyone know I’m still here… just listening…

My focus in this thread is mainly on the relationship between time and prayer, but I really appreciate all of the great insights.

On a personal note, I guess it may sound strange, but I was hoping some of these answers would help me find a way to pace myself to say the Liturgy of the Hours…

My own schedule is so erratic at times - I have difficulty adhering to prayer by the clock, so I was trying to think of it the other way around… telling the hour by the prayer…

Jesus seems do this at times. Like when he told Mary, “My time has not yet come…”, or - just the opposite - “The hour has come for the son of man to be handed over…”

These spiritual motions in prayer somehow seem to have a different sort of “cumulative” meaning, according to the NABRE (which is the translation I use), like when the authors say, “When all things had been fulfilled”, including everything from the Astrologers at Jesus birth all the way up to the Crucifixion on Passover to the telling of the seasons for farming purposes, etc…

I dont think we can fully replicate this type of prayer ourselves in this day and age, and some of it is just in God’s Heavenly realms anyway… but I think we can still maybe get a sense of what it would be like to tell ones day by prayer… if that makes any sense…

Yes? No? Totally crazy?

 

[Wm777]

What version were you using?

I suspect they said “4 in the afternoon” for our sake to understand a vague time in the original.

John, CHAPTER 1 | USCCB

Just scroll to verse 39…

 

[Wm777]

In addition to what Angannas said, I note that the Scripture says, “It was about four in the afternoon.”

This is not a super-accurate time measure, but rather a general knowledge that it’s about four hours past noon based on length of shadows, the position of the sun in the sky etc.

I don’t go around telling time by the sun, yet I could probably tell you when it was “about four in the afternoon” just based on the sun position and how the light looks at that time of day in the place where I live and during the season we’re in. I am sure people who didn’t have watches or phones showing the time and were used to telling time by the sun would have an even better sense of this than I do. It’s not rocket science.

That’s a reasonable point, but that’s not quite the sense of what I mean.

Suppose you were having fun. Time Flies. Hours seem like seconds.

Suppose you were stuck doing something you found very difficult to tolerate. It’s as if every second is an hour.

In both cases above the term “about” could fluctuate drastically.

Now - place that in the context of prayer…

A trumpet, a bell, a chant, a verse - these all help to set a time and they seem to have a sort of rhythm to them… or, perhaps in other ways, certain prophesies have been fulfilled to set the pace… like at the Presentation at the Temple… and so on…

To God thousand years is as a day, but our time is limited to a fraction of that…

I guess the question of the “sense” of it being “about 4 o’clock in the afternoon”… Seems to me to be like the new Apostles weren’t excited, nor were they down upon finding Jesus - but somehow they were just about properly attenuated in their prayerlife… somehow enough to sense, identify and follow Jesus…

 

[GiftofMercy]

Perhaps I did not make it that clear. The Trumpeters did not trumpet at sundown. They trumpeted at a specific given time before hand. This was a specified time before any shadows started falling, any light was lost, any indication like that, indicating sundown was fast approaching.
The trumpeters were advising people that sabbath would begin in x amount of time and that they had that time to complete their work and prepare for Sabbath. Everything had to be done prior to Sabbath even down to the lighting of the oil lamps.

And since we don’t have a definitive answer I will ask people who will have this answer, this coming week. It is an interesting question.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

I’m pretty sure people could also tell when sundown “was fast approaching” and that a trumpet was simply a reminder, hurry up and get done. It was also a way of putting everybody in one area, such as a city, on a uniform time.

I also don’t see why this question is so interesting to people. As has been stated over and over on the thread, people who did not have timepieces, as was the case for hundreds of years, developed a sense of time during the day from watching the sun. Thus, the time could be ascertained from the sun position at any point when the sun was available. There’s nothing that earth-shattering about it. To each his own I guess.

 

[BartholomewB]

The OP was asking about prayers that were said at specific times, to tie in with his hypothesis that this practice helped people to know what time of day it was. Only a historian having specific knowledge of Second Temple Judaism could supply that factual information, I think.

 

[GiftofMercy]

Only a historian having specific knowledge of Second Temple Judaism could supply that factual information, I think.

And I will ask one in the next week or so.

I’m pretty sure people could also tell when sundown “was fast approaching” and that a trumpet was simply a reminder, hurry up and get done. It was also a way of putting everybody in one area, such as a city, on a uniform time.

It was a set time of the day, before any indication that the sun was on its way across the skies. It required that the persons organising this event knew the exact time. Which goes back to the question asked by the OP.
AS an aside, the trumpet was much more then a hurry up and get done, It was part of religious and sacred Tradition in Judaism. The find of that inscription I mentioned up thread was and still is very significant.

I also don’t see why this question is so interesting to people

Another requirement of exactness in time was in the Roman watch. Change of watch through the night also required good time keeping. So how did people do this in the middle of the night. Sleep on your watch or miss your watch and you were punished by death. Not very nice working conditions And crucial you knew the time.

 

[Brian_K]

As to why they mentioned the time, someone shared with me that it was one of those moments you never forget, something like everyone remembers where they were and what they were doing when Kennedy was shot or 9/11 happened. What Jesus shared with them after they met, as we now know of course, shifted their lives so drastically that they remember the specific moment of meeting.

Someone I knew in RCIA had a similar experience in adoration when he realized that he could honestly believe in the Real Presence.

 

[BartholomewB]

And I will ask one in the next week or so.

Thank you! I look forward to learning the facts of the case.

It was a set time of the day, before any indication that the sun was on its way across the skies.

I think the sun is on its way across the skies all the time, isn’t it? During the daytime, that is. Except sometimes when Joshua has a battle to fight …

 

[Wm777]

I also don’t see why this question is so interesting to people. As has been stated over and over on the thread, people who did not have timepieces, as was the case for hundreds of years, developed a sense of time during the day from watching the sun. Thus, the time could be ascertained from the sun position at any point when the sun was available. There’s nothing that earth-shattering about it. To each his own I guess.

I respect you Tis_Bearself, so - as the OP - I’ll try to invite you in a little closer, if you like. If you wish to decline, then that is okay, too.

I think the main idea I’m trying to get at is more general; it’s more like something like a sense of rhythm.

There’s a sort of difficult here, though.

While meditating upon this question, three different types of time seem possible: 1.) God’s time, 2.) nature’s time, and 3.) man’s time.

God’s Time is eternity. What is, was and always will be. This is probably why Jesus could say, “I am” - because in a Trinitarian sense, He is always ever-present, and yet can and does exist in the past, present and future.

Nature’s Time is like the motions of the sun, effects of gravity changing the seasons, biorhythms, etc… It’s not permanent. At best, it changes predictably in a cyclical fashion, but - as in the case of the wind - a lot of the time we sense it, but we often “know not where it came from or where it goes.”

Man’s Time (whether individually or socially) is somehow caught in a state of flux - in “the vagaries of time”, as I think it is called.

Somehow it seems to me - when we pray - what we’re trying to do timewise is tap into the eternal truths of God’s Creation through the teachings and sacramental blessings Jesus set forth.

Unless we are totally blessed by God - we probably wont be able to see into the future like a truly gifted prophet of old… but I get the feeling prayer has a way of keeping time for us, or people wouldn’t use it, including Jesus…

We routinely hear it said, “When all these things had been fulfilled…” I’m ask, what does that mean? Not because I dont understand what it means, but because it seems like we’re supposed to be cooperating with all those “things” (whatever they may be) are…

I hate to psychologize the notion, but the “100th monkey effect” (the theory of critical mass) does seem to have both prayerful and sinful parallels… Starting from Jesus baptism through Pentecost, and continuing after Pentecost - the apostles prayed with “one accord” in the midst of a hostile world set against them…

In a way - what I am asking is is to try to figure out how the world (and other things, like the church itself) came to be… and I know this much… it happened in prayer… and it happened in time… and it was a social movement…

How Jesus and God coordinated the changes… some of it we know… a lot of it we dont… but if we are to grow spiritually in prayer, then - at least from a human standpoint - it’s somehow going to happen in time and probably best through prayer…

 

[Wm777]

Super great answer!

 

[Wm777]

Yes, we need some of our Jewish Brethren who are in the know to comment here!

 

[Wm777]

Thank you so much for your support and interest in this topic! I look forward to hearing what you learn!

Additionally, of course, I will keep the prayer going, too!

 

[Brian_K]

Reading this reminded me of my reflection on time as a construct God chose to provide our souls with opportunities to grow in likeness to Him. Since God is eternal, and is also the only reality, the purest experience of reality is eternity. Time is sort of a “buffer” between us and full Reality to allow us to work out our salvation and make mistakes along the way. Unlike the angels, whose decisions are eternal since they exist outside of time, we can make a mistake and amend it and grow in understanding and be faced with the same decision again and apply what we’ve learned. And we’re the only creatures in the universe who can.

 

[Wm777]

FWIW, here is an explanation of the 100th Monkey Effect…

Not sure if it is relatable just to prayer, but you can see how it supposedly works with respect to either prayer or possibly sin.

Do you think I should be applying this to prayer, even if only on an internal basis?

 

[Wm777]

I meant with respect to prayer…

 

[Wm777]

Unlike the angels, whose decisions are eternal since they exist outside of time, we can make a mistake and amend it and grow in understanding and be faced with the same decision again and apply what we’ve learned.

There is one interesting notion about Angels and time, though…

Thomas Aquinas says “Angels move my making decisions”, so they must exist in time (in order to change from point to point in the decisive proess) somehow, although I never really got that part because they are also eternal in nature…