Z
Zynxensar
Guest
There wasn’t a Catholic Church to declare it then. Which authority said it was inspired? If none, why did they believe it (scripture) was inspired?
How did the people of Jesus's time know Old Testament is inspired
- Status
C
ChristMyLife
Guest
The scribes and Pharisees who sat on the Chair (cathedra in the Vulgate) of Moses.
A note in the Didache Bible reads “this refers to the teaching authority of the scribes and Pharisees.” The religious teaching authority, that is the Magisterium, in Judaism of Jesus’ day resided in the scribes and Pharisees who sat on the Chair of Moses. After Pentecost, that authority was transferred to the Apostles and their Successors, centered around the Chair of Peter.
See Matthew 23:1-3.
Last edited:
R
Roseeurekacross
Guest
Jesus was Jewish. The Jewish have a long tradition of knowing God
B
BartholomewB
Guest
There was a canon of scripture in existence at the time of Jesus’ earthly ministry. It’s what is frequently referred to in the New Testament as “the Law and the Prophets”, for example in Matt 22:40. But did they use the word “inspired” at that time to describe their sacred books? I don’t think so. I don’t remember seeing anywhere in the Bible the word “inspired” as a description of the Bible itself, in whole or in part, though possibly some English translations may have used the word. It would require looking into.
Last edited:
K
KevinK
Guest
So when Jesus came did they suddenly lose their tradition of " knowing God" since they rejected Jesus as Messiah?
Z
ziapueblo
Guest
The scriptures as we know them were put together over time as a collection of book read during the Liturgy. Are you a Christian?
ZP
ZP
C
c1949
Guest
The question is easier when you specify Jesus’ time. The Dead Sea Scrolls point to three different traditions in Judaism, which is to say three different written traditions. There was the Pentateuch which was accepted by the Samaritans, there were scrolls that are described as being the forerunners of the currently accepted Jewish masoretic text, and then there are the scrolls that correspond to the Greek Septuagint. There were also other scrolls that appear to be local to the area.
I could be wrong, but I think Jesus quotes from the scrolls that were used to form the Septuagint, and then there’s the Septuagint which, to me, points to which scrolls the Jews considered worthy of translation for the benefit of non-Hebrew speaking Jews outside of Canaan.Palestine. Although the modern Jews do not reject the Septuagint for information, they adopted the Masoretic text in the second century, which was after Jesus’ time.
I think that there was some stability achieved after the Babylonian captivity, to standardize the scrolls which were used in the second temple. Certainly not political stability, but some religious stability.
These are just thoughts from my readings over the past few years. The internal content of the texts has been closely studied to try to determine dates of composition, etc. even in Jesus’ time. The Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds (“study”) would reflect on which scrolls the Jews accepted. In Jesus’ day, it was accepted that the era of the prophets was over.
I could be wrong, but I think Jesus quotes from the scrolls that were used to form the Septuagint, and then there’s the Septuagint which, to me, points to which scrolls the Jews considered worthy of translation for the benefit of non-Hebrew speaking Jews outside of Canaan.Palestine. Although the modern Jews do not reject the Septuagint for information, they adopted the Masoretic text in the second century, which was after Jesus’ time.
I think that there was some stability achieved after the Babylonian captivity, to standardize the scrolls which were used in the second temple. Certainly not political stability, but some religious stability.
These are just thoughts from my readings over the past few years. The internal content of the texts has been closely studied to try to determine dates of composition, etc. even in Jesus’ time. The Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds (“study”) would reflect on which scrolls the Jews accepted. In Jesus’ day, it was accepted that the era of the prophets was over.
Last edited:
R
Roseeurekacross
Guest
you know that not all Jewish people rejected Jesus. The early converts were known as the Jesus movement in the Jewish community. Jewish Christians were horribly persecuted.
Many of our early martyrs come from their ranks.
Jewish today still know God. Jewish, Muslim and Christian know the One God.
Our Old Testament is what God gave to the Jewish people and to us, for our salvation.
Many of our early martyrs come from their ranks.
Jewish today still know God. Jewish, Muslim and Christian know the One God.
Our Old Testament is what God gave to the Jewish people and to us, for our salvation.
C
c1949
Guest
continued from comment 7
It is generally understood that there were oral traditions of Jewish history before they were written down. So, Moses was a credible personality for centuries before Christ. So, the writings attributed to him had a lot of credibility.
But, in Deuteronomy, Moses says not to add of take away from what he had written. Hmmmm…Well, there were a lot of other Jewish writings that were accepted leading to what we have today.
This makes me think too hard. When did the Israelites develop or adopt the technology for developing a written form of their language? Well, if I don’t get stuck on that, then whenever the Jewish scriptures began to be transcribed, for preservation, there must have been an inspired method of deciding which writings to preserve. etc. So, a lot of decisions must have been made along the way about which to preserve and for what reason. I’ve read the Bible through once before, maybe ten years ago. I’m finishing it up again by year’s end. There’s a lot of boring writing in there. I can understand preserving the wisdom and proverbs and even psalms. But, if it were up to me, I’d need a lot of divine inspiration to preserve a lot of the negative writing that I’ve run across.
In reality, the Talmud writings were also conserved and considered inspired. Talmud (study) is short for Talmud Torah-- study of the Torah. So, the conclusions about what the Torah (God’s instruction) meant is still considered inspired today.
It is generally understood that there were oral traditions of Jewish history before they were written down. So, Moses was a credible personality for centuries before Christ. So, the writings attributed to him had a lot of credibility.
But, in Deuteronomy, Moses says not to add of take away from what he had written. Hmmmm…Well, there were a lot of other Jewish writings that were accepted leading to what we have today.
This makes me think too hard. When did the Israelites develop or adopt the technology for developing a written form of their language? Well, if I don’t get stuck on that, then whenever the Jewish scriptures began to be transcribed, for preservation, there must have been an inspired method of deciding which writings to preserve. etc. So, a lot of decisions must have been made along the way about which to preserve and for what reason. I’ve read the Bible through once before, maybe ten years ago. I’m finishing it up again by year’s end. There’s a lot of boring writing in there. I can understand preserving the wisdom and proverbs and even psalms. But, if it were up to me, I’d need a lot of divine inspiration to preserve a lot of the negative writing that I’ve run across.
In reality, the Talmud writings were also conserved and considered inspired. Talmud (study) is short for Talmud Torah-- study of the Torah. So, the conclusions about what the Torah (God’s instruction) meant is still considered inspired today.
Last edited:
H
humbleseeker
Guest
There is always hope: “In respect to the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but in respect to election, they are beloved because of the patriarchs. For the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11: 28-29
Last edited:
S
Sophie111
Guest
There was a time when the OT was not existant.
Who had the authority to declare it inspired is probably where the intent of the OP will go next.
Likely the answer is the usual one…you either accept it is so without question or you are ejected from the tribe if you publicly dissent. Pretty much like what passes as “truth” today.
Who had the authority to declare it inspired is probably where the intent of the OP will go next.
Likely the answer is the usual one…you either accept it is so without question or you are ejected from the tribe if you publicly dissent. Pretty much like what passes as “truth” today.
Last edited:
D
Dan_Defender
Guest
Josephus (1st century AD) mentions twenty-two books ‘which contain all the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine; and of them five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death… the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life.’
R
Roseeurekacross
Guest
Read the catechism
R
Roseeurekacross
Guest
You are going to have to determine the era you specify , where the Jewish people were without Scripture.
And then substantiate the idea of tribal ejection.
And then substantiate the idea of tribal ejection.
Last edited:
S
Sophie111
Guest
Why?
What is your solution…and then substantiate that idea also
.
What is your solution…and then substantiate that idea also
.
R
Roseeurekacross
Guest
Solution for what? Not following.
When we speak history, it’s prudent to specify the time frame. So at what time was the Old Testament non existent.
When we speak history, it’s prudent to specify the time frame. So at what time was the Old Testament non existent.
S
Sophie111
Guest
If you are unwilling to engage the substantive issue of this thread yourself then theres nothing to be said.
C
c1949
Guest
your response seems to be one of several skeptical possibilities.
What you’ve left out explicitly is tradition, i.e. the handing down of a written history and beliefs.
Nobody can prove it was the same as the tradition that developed with the New Testament, but the NT is an example of how a tradition can begin. There were the original witnesses, the apostles. Then there was the next generation which passed along what they had learned by oral and written means,
In the modern political context in the United states, we’re seeing arise a movement of “progressives” who explicitly and adamantly reject the past. What you’re describing is what has to be a normal process of passing along a culture–yes it is or attempts by varying means to be coercive, or at least persuasive, to maintain those beliefs and traditions. The Bible shows all too often the rejection of beliefs, history, and tradition and the results that follow from that.
What you’ve left out explicitly is tradition, i.e. the handing down of a written history and beliefs.
Nobody can prove it was the same as the tradition that developed with the New Testament, but the NT is an example of how a tradition can begin. There were the original witnesses, the apostles. Then there was the next generation which passed along what they had learned by oral and written means,
In the modern political context in the United states, we’re seeing arise a movement of “progressives” who explicitly and adamantly reject the past. What you’re describing is what has to be a normal process of passing along a culture–yes it is or attempts by varying means to be coercive, or at least persuasive, to maintain those beliefs and traditions. The Bible shows all too often the rejection of beliefs, history, and tradition and the results that follow from that.
Last edited:
S
Sophie111
Guest
I havent “left anything out”…the OP asked for possible solutions and I provided a reasonable hypothesis.
By all means provide yours…there is no need to address it to me, address it to the OP.
But if you find my hypothesis unreasonable you are welcome to address it on its own terms…rather than apparantly taking a yes/no world view where if you have a reasonable hypothesis then all others are thereby mistaken.
I am not really interested in challenging your well known view…the cracks are readily apparant to truth seekers who are without a vested interest in whether it be likely or not.
Last edited:
D
Dovekin
Guest
- Status