How Did Things Get This Bad at Mass? (Not your typical "abuse" thread)

[ChurchTorch]

I have to say, this is horrible, not to mention disrespectful. Now, does someone wash the purificators? Or are they just stained from many uses? Also, whoever is shoving them in the back drawer, they need to stop. It should be neat and tidy and it makes it difficult for people who are trying to set everything up. Also, it makes it look messy, which it shouldn’t.

They get washed. They are soiled for a number of reasons. They were returned by someone who missed the stains; the person thought they were “clean enough” or they were actual stains the washing did not remove.

About the altar candles and wax spilling, that is a problem with the altar servers or whoever blows them out (typically the altar servers). It’d be nice if you or another helper could talk to the servers or have the pastor say something about using the stuffer when putting out candles, because, if you just blow them out, wax gets on the altar and the linens which can be a pain to get out. If the situation persists, you or the Pastor could tell them to not blow out the candles, someone else responsible will do it.

This has been many, many, many times in the past 20 years… The biggest excuse? “Oh! I forgot!” Some of those split-second blow-outs create 90 minutes of tedious clean-up for the sacristan and the janitor. Thanks again guys!

About the credence table, I didn’t really know that you were allowed to put flowers on there. I never see flowers on the credence table at my church.

The credence here is the old high altar. Flowers are fine (arguable during Lenten weekdays though) but shriveled flowers are not.

About the EMHC leaving the tabernacle open, that needs to stop. I don’t see how things will go “much quicker” by having it left open.

I fixed that…

About “speedy” Cherri, she needs to be more reverent with the stuff. It’s used for Mass, and should be treated properly. It shouldn’t be a big hurry to rush out.

She slammed around (bam, bam, bam-bam!) an antique chalice that I personally own that was not merely blessed but consecrated in 1933. I walked over and said “give me the chalice!!”, I finished washing it and walked away before I really unloaded.

I would definately try to organize a meeting and bring up these situations. Do you have a Pastoral Council? Maybe you could bring it up with them.

My pastor needs to do something…

There are 4 sacristans at my church, and two of them I really admire. One of them makes sure everything is clean/laundered especially for a big event coming up. She takes care of Father’s vestments, the altar servers’ robes, and basically everything that would need cleaned. She’s very devoted. The other one I admire makes sure everything goes very smoothly, and she’s very devoted as well. She always makes me feel comfortable when she’s there.

Very cool. We have had a fairly good sacristan for many years but these people just ignore her. At some point a pastor is going to step-up, tell everyone how it is and weather the wrath.

 

[ChurchTorch]

My question remains though. Why DO people act this way? This is not matter of poor parish training. This is a matter of no manners…

 

[puzzleannie]

No.

We’re not talking about liturgical abuses during a Mass. We’re talking about horrid behavior in the sacristy and sanctuary before and after Mass.

well DH, my brothers, men my age who were altar servers all have their tales about such so my guess is the problem is as old as any other such sin. If it did not exist there would not have been laws about it.

 

[puzzleannie]

My question remains though. Why DO people act this way? This is not matter of poor parish training. This is a matter of no manners…

how do the same people act in someone’s home, in public places, in the house of another religion, in a foreign country. there are just some people who think (and teach their children the same) that whatever they are doing and saying at any given time is of overriding importance, and so they have no sense of time or place. When they do behave properly it is to give on a show and point to themselves, not to give deference or reverence. And yes it is lack of proper training which begins in the home. Where or where are you, Miss Manners could solve this, we would not need the GIRM.

But the training when EMHCs were first allowed up until 15-20 years ago, when a lot of changes and stricter rules came in force (the name for one) was abyssmal and since the whole reason for their existence was to put focus on the laity, naturally some lay persons absorbed the prevailing idea that the Mass was now about them. The same holds true for catechists & deacons in formation during this time, or those who attended “lay ministry institutes” back then. That is why in many dioceses those were abandoned, because the teaching was so bad, and only now are being restarted or reformed. In charity we must realize that the “I’ve been doing this for 20 yrs and you can’t teach me anyting people” were actually trained improperly.

 

[Spirithound]

On Wednesday I went in as usual to set-up for the early Mass. Opening the giant drawer of freshly laundered sacred linens I had to sort though about a dozen corporals and purificators to find some not stained with lipstick, wine or possibly the Precious Blood. All too often they get shoved back into the drawer after Mass in a soiled condition.

There comes a time in every corporal’s life when it needs to be disposed of. Perhaps approach your Knights of Columbus for donation of new ones.

Setting-up the sacred vessels I was reminded that their interiors need to be re-plated soon. Not from use but from the deep scratches made by the jewelry worn by those who wash (after purification) the sacred vessels.

This sounds like good cause for Father to withdraw the Cup from the laity. You might also suggest (strongly) those who are cleaning the vessels to remove their jewellery first.

Walking out to the sanctuary I notice once again notice a splash of candle wax on the altar cloth from someone who blew out the altar candles. Why can’t they use a tool/snuffer like the have been asked? How nice, even more dried beeswax on the sanctuary floor tile and on the brass candlesticks themselves. Oh look, someone once again left burnt matches on the candlesticks’ wax holders right next to the altar!

Make this the altar server’s duty. After they process back to the sacristy, they return to the altar with the snuffer. Also, switch from matches to those handy clickers.

What’s with all the shriveled flowers on credence table? They certainly didn’t shrivel overnight. Doesn’t anyone care?

pot pourri?

Just before Mass begins the head EMHC comes out to “check” the tabernacle. He leaves it unlocked, wide-open with the key in it to “make things go quicker.” After he walks away I lock the tabernacle and find the celebrant to personally give him the key.

Good call on your part

After Mass it’s a virtual fire drill to get out of the place. Someone cries out “WHO’S DOING THE DISHES?” I hear quiet cheers as “speedy” Cherri tears into the vessels. “Cherri washes them so fast!” BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG against the metal sink. I’m wondering “what’s your hurry, Cherri? You’re retired as most of these people are.” I guess they are in a hurry to get to the “breakfast” that has been dominating the conversation.

Where do people learn to act in this manner? These are educated and I would hope fairly cultured people. Why do they act this way? How can this behavior be changed? It’s been going on forever and it’s horrible. Truly horrible.

The pastor mentions these items and it’s like they defiantly couldn’t care less. Sure if it gets real bad individuals will get removed from ministry but that causes massive hard feelings which leads to other problems.

What’s the genesis of this problem?

No EF at my home parish. The supporting groups are somewhat different at each Mass but overall there is almost a complete lack of manners in how people act in the sacristy AND the sanctuary before and after Mass.

The pastor is a good man. This problem predates him by 20 years. I think if he tactfully addresses this, things might change for a week. If he really cracked down, all hell would break loose.

I can just imagine the virulent gossip, the quitting of ministries, the calls/letters to the bishop, etc.

Counter-question: Do we really want this type of person running the ministries? (be prepared to pick up the slack!)

 

[spn82756]

Oh…how about lectors that haven’t even taken the time to review the readings before Mass. Then end up stumbling through them with poor pronunciation…repeating the same line a couple of times…not speaking clearly?

 

[spn82756]

My question remains though. Why DO people act this way? This is not matter of poor parish training. This is a matter of no manners…

This is a matter of people not realizing just what Mass is. They don’t even think about why they are there. They take for granted the Real Presence of Jesus. I don’t want to judge…but for some it may be more like a clubhouse than a church.

 

[malphono]

Surely all of us have read many threads about liturgical abuses. How about a thread that explores the set-up, clean-up and general surrounding in which the Mass is celebrated?

On Wednesday I went in as usual to set-up for the early Mass. Opening the giant drawer of freshly laundered sacred linens I had to sort though about a dozen corporals and purificators to find some not stained with lipstick, wine or possibly the Precious Blood. All too often they get shoved back into the drawer after Mass in a soiled condition.

Seems to me the word “slob” might fit here. Perhaps putting a clearly-marked hamper for used altar linens in the sacristy might help. Better they put unused linens to be washed again than to put soiled linens back in the “clean” drawer to be used again.

Setting-up the sacred vessels I was reminded that their interiors need to be re-plated soon. Not from use but from the deep scratches made by the jewelry worn by those who wash (after purification) the sacred vessels.

It would be interesting to know if these same people wash their dishes and family silver at home with bejeweled hands. Maybe there should be a selection of rubber gloves right by the sink. If they don’t remove the jewels and tear the gloves, they would be responsible for replacing them. It’s known as the “hit them in the pocket-book” approach.

Walking out to the sanctuary I notice once again notice a splash of candle wax on the altar cloth from someone who blew out the altar candles. Why can’t they use a tool/snuffer like the have been asked? How nice, even more dried beeswax on the sanctuary floor tile and on the brass candlesticks themselves. Oh look, someone once again left burnt matches on the candlesticks’ wax holders right next to the altar!

What’s with all the shriveled flowers on credence table? They certainly didn’t shrivel overnight. Doesn’t anyone care?

Evidently this crew is not particularly fastidious. (I can just imagine the dead poinsettias in their homes left-over from Christmas. ) Doesn’t the sacristan ever say anything?

Just before Mass begins the head EMHC comes out to “check” the tabernacle. He leaves it unlocked, wide-open with the key in it to “make things go quicker.” After he walks away I lock the tabernacle and find the celebrant to personally give him the key.

No EMHC should even be near the tabernacle, much less opening it.

After Mass it’s a virtual fire drill to get out of the place. Someone cries out “WHO’S DOING THE DISHES?” I hear quiet cheers as “speedy” Cherri tears into the vessels. “Cherri washes them so fast!” BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG against the metal sink. I’m wondering “what’s your hurry, Cherri? You’re retired as most of these people are.” I guess they are in a hurry to get to the “breakfast” that has been dominating the conversation.

Sounds like a bevy of bovines. Perhaps it’d be better for the pastor to instruct them to leave the vessels on the sacristy table for the sacristan to wash. Since the vessels have (presumably) been purified, even if they will be needed at another Mass it should not present a problem.

Where do people learn to act in this manner? These are educated and I would hope fairly cultured people. Why do they act this way? How can this behavior be changed? It’s been going on forever and it’s horrible. Truly horrible.

The pastor mentions these items and it’s like they defiantly couldn’t care less. Sure if it gets real bad individuals will get removed from ministry but that causes massive hard feelings which leads to other problems.

What’s the genesis of this problem?

I would suggest that they learn this type of behavior from a combination of things, including minimal (or non-existent) supervision. They see themselves as being “in charge” and sometimes the only way to correct a situation like that is the hard way. It’s nothing new: the same mentality has been around for ages and the pastor may just have to “clean house” or at least threaten them with it.

 

[Beachcomber]

My question remains though. Why DO people act this way? This is not matter of poor parish training. This is a matter of no manners…

Because they’re idiots.

I don’t mean to be flippant about this, but, seriously, they are lacking knowledge. As a previous poster mentioned, they might be taking the Real Presence for granted.

If the priest would crack down on them, and there would be a lot of furious and insulted people, then it seems to me like this is a clique of people who feel self-important about their ‘jobs.’ It has become ‘all about them,’ and not serving the Lord.

 

[ChurchTorch]

There is some good feedback here, thanks…

Most of these people that act like “slobs” as one person so accurately put it are daily communicants. I beginning to think that most if not all of them simply take the Mass and the parish church for granted.

I don’t think most of them are slobs in their own homes though which makes me wonder even more.

I also agree that most have absolutely no clue about what the Mass is. If pressed they would say something like “that’s where we go to pray to God and get the hosts and wine.”

This really is very sad…

 

[laura_kathleen]

OK you guys are being mean, I understand that no one should ever act like this when you are dealing with preparing and cleaning up after mass, but I think we have all experienced it that when you are doing the behind the scenes stuff of mass it is so easy to just forget that the chalice you are purifying is the same one that you just recieved Christ from. Especially if you have been doing it for 20 years, I am not saying this is an excuse, because it is not but it is what happens. I would not say that it is laziness, I would say that it is complacency and that these people do need to have a refresher course simply to remind everyone that what they are doing is first voluntary so if they have somewhere super important to be after mass then just stop helping after mass, and to tell everyone again that even though it can seem like cleaning the house after making dinner, it is the Lord’s Supper so we should take that a little more seriously, and everything you described sounds like it is easy to correct and the people doing it just need a little reminder that this is the Lord’s house and we need to treat it that way.

 

[ChurchTorch]

OK you guys are being mean, I understand that no one should ever act like this when you are dealing with preparing and cleaning up after mass, but I think we have all experienced it that when you are doing the behind the scenes stuff of mass it is so easy to just forget that the chalice you are purifying is the same one that you just recieved Christ from. Especially if you have been doing it for 20 years, I am not saying this is an excuse, because it is not but it is what happens. I would not say that it is laziness, I would say that it is complacency and that these people do need to have a refresher course simply to remind everyone that what they are doing is first voluntary so if they have somewhere super important to be after mass then just stop helping after mass, and to tell everyone again that even though it can seem like cleaning the house after making dinner, it is the Lord’s Supper so we should take that a little more seriously, and everything you described sounds like it is easy to correct and the people doing it just need a little reminder that this is the Lord’s house and we need to treat it that way.

I don’t think it easy for those who believe – believe in the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. I honestly do not.

But I do believe complacency does play a part. HOW it could given my above belief is what has me puzzled.

Unless the current pastor really came down hard on people and kept a very close eye on things for 6+ months I don’t think a meeting would have any effect at all. Maybe that’s the point, I’m not sure my current pastor is willing to be that serious about things…

Finally, I do believe some of these people have been in ministry for too long and it’s very high time that some were tactfully retired from service.

 

[nannyma]

an EMHC who has been doing this for 20 yrs is almost guaranteed to be doing it wrong and to have been trained poorly, and to be using incorrect terminology and practice that was floating around at that time. (same goes for my field, catechetics btw, I can almost predict, by when they started and got their formation, what problems we will have with a catechist)

In our parish we have term limits in our ministries. For EMHC it is three years, to be approved by the pastor and the Bishop.

 

[ChurchTorch]

“…One hears a lot hanging out in sacristies. Over the years the #1 complaint which I have overheard from clergy, and some parishioners too comes after the Dismissal. As the organist prepares to launch into an inspiring postlude-does your altar guild team dash up to the altar and credence table to juggle the metalware, snatch the flower vases for shut-in delivery and clack in high heels across the chancel on the way to the sacristy? If “mea culpa“s the answer, it is not too late to reform! Generally understood in most parishes is that the service has ended and exiting may commence when the acolytes have extinguished the altar candles-in some cases it is more than the two Eucharistic candles and this may take some time if done properly, carefully, and with some decorum…”

From: rhodeislandaltars.com/category/sacred-vessels/

At least my parish is not alone…

 

[ChurchTorch]

The Holy Spirit is at work…

At the Solemn Mass for the Feast of the Annunciation this Thursday, those that set-up Mass and clean-up after, along with the regular EMsHC are going to be told to stand-down by the pastor.

The tasks will be executed by a group of well-trained adult male altar servers who are also commissioned EMsHC themselves.

Let’s see if this sends a message.

 

[karennascargo3]

I can give you a perspective as new convert. In going through our RICA classes and seeing all things anew in this very exciting journey in my new faith, I see such a difference in many of the cradle Catholics and those who were converted long ago. It’s like they no longer have the ability to ‘see’ the dignity, respect, and awe of the Catholic faith. They perhaps have come to take it all so for granted that they now totally have become blinded to the wonder and excitement of this wonderful faith; but even more, to what we all owe to our Lord for His love and mercy shown to us.

Perhaps it’s that they don’t mean to be so negligent, but rather that they have forgotten the solemn respect in all things of the church. It isn’t just a cup or a piece of linen; it’s the Lord’s cup and Lord’s linen. All things in the church are sanctified unto the Lord and I think they some how have gotten complacent about what that means.

I think life has just gotten so complicated, busy, and stressful, that some have distanced themselves from opportunities to care for the house of God. Anything added to their busy lives is viewed as a ‘chore’ rather than an opportunity to serve Christ and do so with an attitude of humility because it is a privilege to do so.

Maybe we all need a refresher course on how and why we’re Catholic every few years.

 

[PattiDay]

I am envious that some of you have two masses daily and seven on Sunday. Our church has a mass on Wednesday, one on Friday, and two (English and Spanish) on Sunday. While the Sunday mass set ups are handled by one person, the Wednesday mass is set up by the Deacon and the Friday mass by the church secretary. I asked her to show me how to do it and have now set up two Friday masses and make sure the readings are set to the right day. She is thrilled to have someone do it because she’s so busy. I am assuming that what I’m doing is proper based on no negative feedback. Perhaps you could have a ‘recertification’ for ALL with follow up as needed. That way no one person should get hurt feelings. Perhaps not everyone has had the same level of training. People just assume that I should know what to do, but they don’t realize that I have been away from the church for a long time, and am dependent on them to give me the right direction so I do things reverently and properly. I’d love someone to critique and advise me.

 

[ChurchTorch]

I am envious that some of you have two masses daily and seven on Sunday. Our church has a mass on Wednesday, one on Friday, and two (English and Spanish) on Sunday. While the Sunday mass set ups are handled by one person, the Wednesday mass is set up by the Deacon and the Friday mass by the church secretary. I asked her to show me how to do it and have now set up two Friday masses and make sure the readings are set to the right day. She is thrilled to have someone do it because she’s so busy. I am assuming that what I’m doing is proper based on no negative feedback. Perhaps you could have a ‘recertification’ for ALL with follow up as needed. That way no one person should get hurt feelings. Perhaps not everyone has had the same level of training. People just assume that I should know what to do, but they don’t realize that I have been away from the church for a long time, and am dependent on them to give me the right direction so I do things reverently and properly. I’d love someone to critique and advise me.

Thank you very much for your comments. I would never discount training as an issue. Training should be serious and on-going and it’s not really at my parish. Still my biggest concern is just how some people act. They should know how to act inside of a church based on manners. Manners I’m fairly sure they exhibit elsewhere. I really don’t know why some act as they do.

I think some are tacitly ashamed when others show irritation for their behavior. Sadly, all too often their response it to “dig in”, sometimes in the worst possible ways.

I agree with the poster before you. Many have clearly forgotten how to behave in church, particularly in the sacristy and sanctuary. Want to see a reverent Catholic? Look at the one knocking on the sacristy door to buy a candle. They will be in awe when you invite them in and their manners will always be impeccable. Same goes for new EMsHC.

The “Cherri” person I mentioned has only been an EMHC for perhaps 18 months. 18 months ago her behavior was superb, in all respects just like all newbies. Today it’s bang, bang, BANG, BANG!, trips across the sanctuary to be seen, loud talking in the sacristy, the whole bit.

Still I wish I understood why this takes place but I do appreciate they help.

 

[ChurchTorch]

I can give you a perspective as new convert. In going through our RICA classes and seeing all things anew in this very exciting journey in my new faith, I see such a difference in many of the cradle Catholics and those who were converted long ago. It’s like they no longer have the ability to ‘see’ the dignity, respect, and awe of the Catholic faith. They perhaps have come to take it all so for granted that they now totally have become blinded to the wonder and excitement of this wonderful faith; but even more, to what we all owe to our Lord for His love and mercy shown to us.

Perhaps it’s that they don’t mean to be so negligent, but rather that they have forgotten the solemn respect in all things of the church. It isn’t just a cup or a piece of linen; it’s the Lord’s cup and Lord’s linen. All things in the church are sanctified unto the Lord and I think they some how have gotten complacent about what that means.

I think life has just gotten so complicated, busy, and stressful, that some have distanced themselves from opportunities to care for the house of God. Anything added to their busy lives is viewed as a ‘chore’ rather than an opportunity to serve Christ and do so with an attitude of humility because it is a privilege to do so.

Maybe we all need a refresher course on how and why we’re Catholic every few years.

I have to believe you are right, else they are aware of what they are doing yet they do it anyway. It would take a fairly screwed-up person to do that.

Still, it is monumentally tough for me to try and understand how someone who actually believes in God could take the Mass and the requisite set-up, break-down and furnishings for granted.

I think they do, but I have no idea how they could, IF they actually believe.

 

[mariahloves]

I don’t know all of the technical things about how mass is done but I’m pretty sure my parish is good about keeping things sacred but the only thing I can say is that I was shocked how people show up for mass in jeans and a t shirt. It seems disrespectful to me but I never hear anyone whispering/talking/laughing and other than that no complaints.