How did we get it down to 10?

[carmichael2359]

Hi, I’m aware that in the Pentateuch (Jewish Torah), the Mosaic Code actually puts forth 613 separate commandments: 365 stated negatively and 248 positively. Tradition states that the first two of what we call the Ten Commandments came directly from God, and the other 611 came through Moses. (Also, the numerical value of the word Torah adds up to 611!) I have read many answers to my next question, but those Scripture scholars were not Catholic, so that’s why I am asking here: how did the Church settle on just the Decalogue? I mean, we no longer worry about blending fibers for material, we no longer eat kosher (which can be loosely traced back to Peter’s vision in Acts 10:9-16, except that was explained to be a broader reason later in Acts 11:1-18); we don’t worry about eating blood or transfusions, we don’t separate women off when they’re have a menstrual cycle, we don’t observe the Sabbath years, etc. How, then, did the decision on keeping the “Top Ten” and not the others, come about, especially if only the first two were directly from God?

 

[DarkLight]

The explanation I heard is that the ten commandments are reflections of natural law, not just ritual or ceremonial law.

 

[OxygenMan]

The explanation I heard is that the ten commandments are reflections of natural law, not just ritual or ceremonial law.

This is right. Most of the Old Law was designed to separate the nation and people of Israel from the surrounding pagan people. With the coming of the new covenant under Christ, when His message was meant to be spread to all people, many of the restrictions of the Old Law were no longer necessary. Some of it, however, was still valid because it flowed from the natural law itself.

 

[Della]

Hi, I’m aware that in the Pentateuch (Jewish Torah), the Mosaic Code actually puts forth 613 separate commandments: 365 stated negatively and 248 positively. Tradition states that the first two of what we call the Ten Commandments came directly from God, and the other 611 came through Moses. (Also, the numerical value of the word Torah adds up to 611!) I have read many answers to my next question, but those Scripture scholars were not Catholic, so that’s why I am asking here: how did the Church settle on just the Decalogue? I mean, we no longer worry about blending fibers for material, we no longer eat kosher (which can be loosely traced back to Peter’s vision in Acts 10:9-16, except that was explained to be a broader reason later in Acts 11:1-18); we don’t worry about eating blood or transfusions, we don’t separate women off when they’re have a menstrual cycle, we don’t observe the Sabbath years, etc. How, then, did the decision on keeping the “Top Ten” and not the others, come about, especially if only the first two were directly from God?

They are the universal moral law all people are expected to observe. When Jesus died on the cross he fulfilled all the Levitical laws leaving only the moral law still in effect.

 

[ybkookoo]

Thanks for asking this question. My son had a someone ask him this question at school the other day and we weren’t sure how to answer.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hi, I’m aware that in the Pentateuch (Jewish Torah), the Mosaic Code actually puts forth 613 separate commandments: 365 stated negatively and 248 positively. Tradition states that the first two of what we call the Ten Commandments came directly from God, and the other 611 came through Moses. (Also, the numerical value of the word Torah adds up to 611!) I have read many answers to my next question, but those Scripture scholars were not Catholic, so that’s why I am asking here: how did the Church settle on just the Decalogue? I mean, we no longer worry about blending fibers for material, we no longer eat kosher (which can be loosely traced back to Peter’s vision in Acts 10:9-16, except that was explained to be a broader reason later in Acts 11:1-18); we don’t worry about eating blood or transfusions, we don’t separate women off when they’re have a menstrual cycle, we don’t observe the Sabbath years, etc. How, then, did the decision on keeping the “Top Ten” and not the others, come about, especially if only the first two were directly from God?

I know you want a Catholic perspective, but I can only give you a Jewish one. Well, I could also give you what I think the Catholic perspective is but I’ll let others, more qualified than myself, do so instead. From the Jewish viewpoint, the whole Torah was inspired by G-d and written by Moses. ALL of the Ten Commandments came directly from G-d, not only the first two. And each of the Ten Commandments is elaborated upon by means of the books that comprise the Torah. IOW, the Ten Commandments just give the general moral principles, important as they are; however, the Torah gives the specifics and relates them to the general principles. Even the so-called rituals in the Law all have a moral basis. The study of the Torah is a never-ending enterprise for Jews and anyone else who desires to do so. It is enhanced by the Oral Law, the Talmud, which comments on particularly complex issues raised by the Written Law, the Torah, as well as applying them to modern times. For some Jews (and others), particularly Hasidic movements, the Kabbalah gives additional insight into the Torah; but the study of the Kabbalah is in itself a daunting task.

One further point, which may be more of a direct reply to your question. The 613 commandments in the Torah (many of which cannot be practiced today since the destruction of the Temple) are meant only for Jews, not for Christians or other non-Jews. Therefore, apart from the Noahide Law consisting of seven moral principles, non-Jews are not expected, or even permitted, to follow most of these commandments.

 

[JRKH]

Excellent post meltzerboy.

My answer to the OP is that it was always my understanding that the 10 were the ones written in stone by God on Mt Sinai. The others were all given by Moses later and largley simply expounded on the ten.
Thus the ten - being written by God’s own hand - are immutable.

Of course Jesus did reduce the whole works to just two - Love God above all and Love your neighbor as yourself. Upon these who rest all of the law and the prophets (Mt 22:36-40).

Peace
James

 

[meltzerboy]

Excellent post meltzerboy.

My answer to the OP is that it was always my understanding that the 10 were the ones written in stone by God on Mt Sinai. The others were all given by Moses later and largley simply expounded on the ten.
Thus the ten - being written by God’s own hand - are immutable.

Of course Jesus did reduce the whole works to just two - Love God above all and Love your neighbor as yourself. Upon these who rest all of the law and the prophets (Mt 22:36-40).

Peace
James

Thank you, James. Of course, as you might already know, Love G-d and love thy neighbor was not an original statement of Jesus but rather a recapitulation of what Hillel the Elder had said was the essence of the Torah. Still, for Jews, the Torah in its details teaches us exactly HOW to love G-d and love our neighbor. What we at times think is loving our neighbor may, in certain instances, not be so loving after all.

 

[Evan]

Jesus repeated most (if not all) of the 10 commandments. See truthontheweb.org/nt10com.htm

So from his mouth, these we are to obey, even if they were not presented in the succinct form given the the Torah.

 

[patrick457]

I should point out a minor detail: there are ten “words” (dəḇārîm, i.e. ‘sayings’, ‘statements’, ‘declarations’) and 613 “commandments” (miṣwôt).

 

[meltzerboy]

I should point out a minor detail: there are ten “words” (dəḇārîm, i.e. ‘sayings’, ‘statements’, ‘declarations’) and 613 “commandments” (miṣwôt).

Yes, indeed, patrick. And even the word “commandments” does not have the ordinary meaning we might give it.

 

[carmichael2359]

Yes, indeed, those are ALL excellent answers! From what I’ve seen of the Kabbalah, that study, indeed is daunting and very intriguing, as are the Talmud and other Jewish studies. One lifetime would not begin to be enough. And, to add a point, the Torah itself WA what Jesus was quoting when he said that the g greatest two commandments were those. And I read where Hillel himself said all the rest were commentary!
However, my question dealt more with the process by which the observation of the Decalogue came about. For example, Councils over the years determined which books of the Bible were considered canonical (and I’m familiar with that process.) Did the Church Fathers have a PROCESS by which this was decided? I know from growing up with the Catechism (at least as it was taught to me by Dominicans, Notre Dames and diocesan priests) that breaking one of the 10 was a mortal sin (if done with full understanding and purpose) as opposed to a venial sin. Thanks for all the answers!

 

[Protector]

(All emphasis mine - Protector)

carmichael2359;10394602]Hi, I’m aware that in the Pentateuch (Jewish Torah), the Mosaic Code actually puts forth 613 separate commandments: 365 stated negatively and 248 positively. Tradition states that the first two of what we call the Ten Commandments came directly from God, and the other 611 came through Moses. (Also, the numerical value of the word Torah adds up to 611!) I have read many answers to my next question, but those Scripture scholars were not Catholic, so that’s why I am asking here: how did the Church settle on just the Decalogue? I mean, we no longer worry about blending fibers for material, we no longer eat kosher (which can be loosely traced back to Peter’s vision in Acts 10:9-16, except that was explained to be a broader reason later in Acts 11:1-18); we don’t worry about eating blood or transfusions, we don’t separate women off when they’re have a menstrual cycle, we don’t observe the Sabbath years, etc. How, then, did the decision on keeping the “Top Ten” and not the others, come about, especially if only the first two were directly from God?

On what Scripture do you base this hi-lited statement ,

especially if only the first two were directly from God

The following verse shows a different story -

“And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.” Exodus 31:18 (KJV Cambridge Ed.)

And as Della has said in post #4,

They are the universal moral law all people are expected to observe. When Jesus died on the cross he fulfilled all the Levitical laws leaving only the moral law still in effect.

.
Actually, there were three sets of laws, two of them given on Mt.Sinai (the Ten Commandments and the Judicial Laws), and the third set, the Ceremonial Law

So, one supposes that the more important question that should have been asked is,

“How do the 10 Commandments (Moral Law) differ from the (so-called) Law of Moses?”

.
Firstly, the Ten Commandments (Moral Law) were written by the finger of God on tables of stone,

“These words the Lord spoke to all the multitude of you in the mountain, out of the midst of the fire and the cloud, and the darkness, with a loud voice, adding nothing more: and he wrote them in two tables of stone, which he delivered unto me.” Deut. 5:22 (D-R)

"And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deut. 4:13 (KJV)

. The Judicial Laws were given by God on Mt.Sinai, and written down by Moses in a book called, The Book of the Covenant.

“Take this book of the law, and **put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD **your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.” Deut. 31:26 (KJV)

These are the laws referred to in the following,

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;” Colossians 2:14 (KJV)

The Ceremonial Laws which were dictated to Moses by God, were for the guidance of the Levitical priests for sacrificial ceremonies associated with service in the Taberacle of the congregation:

“And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the pillar of cloud descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the LORD talked with Moses.” Exodus 33:9 (KJV)

“And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.” Deut.31:9 (KJV)

The Ceremonial Laws were made of none effect by our Lord’s perfect sacrifice on the Cross.

---

Secondly, whereas the Law of Moses was expressly for the Children of Israel,

“And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.” Deut. 4:14 (KJV)

the Ten Commandments were for ALL people, for ALL time. Hence, in order to emphasize the universality, and the enduring effect of the 10 Commandments God instructed Moses to place them INSIDE the Ark of the Covenant, whereas He instructed Moses to place the “Book of the Covenant” on the OUTSIDE of the Ark.

Protector.

 

[carmichael2359]

Thank you so much for clearing that up. My NAB translation is somewhat older, so the exact language you quoted to me is a little different. Also, re: the two commandments, I was speaking of a tradition I read about in a collection edited by David M. Howard Jr. and Gary Burger, both of whom have impressive professional credentials.

 

[Nita]

Thank you, James. Of course, as you might already know, Love G-d and love thy neighbor was not an original statement of Jesus but rather a recapitulation of what Hillel the Elder had said was the essence of the Torah.

And of course, the Torah itself contains both of those 2 commands.

Deut. 6:5 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Leviticus 19:18
'Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

 

[patrick457]

Thank you so much for clearing that up. My NAB translation is somewhat older, so the exact language you quoted to me is a little different. Also, re: the two commandments, I was speaking of a tradition I read about in a collection edited by David M. Howard Jr. and Gary Burger, both of whom have impressive professional credentials.

That was a Jewish tradition right there. The idea basically is, that only two statements were uttered by God Himself (“I am the LORD your God” and “You shall have no other gods before me”) while the rest were uttered by Moses. It is based on the observation that only those two statements - I should note that in the current Jewish reckoning of the Ten Words, “I am the LORD your God” and “You shall have no other gods before me” are two separate declarations - are in the first person, while the rest refer to God in the third person.

R. Simlai when preaching said: Six hundred and thirteen precepts were communicated to Moses, three hundred and sixty-five negative precepts, corresponding to the number of solar days [in the year], and two hundred and forty-eight positive precepts, corresponding to the number of the members of man’s body. Said R. Hamnuna: What is the [authentic] text for this? It is, Moses commanded us torah, an inheritance of the congregation of Jacob, ‘torah’ being in letter-value, equal to six hundred and eleven, ‘I am’ and ‘Thou shalt have no [other Gods]’ [not being reckoned, because] we heard from the mouth of the Might [Divine].

• Talmud, Makkot 24a

===

The first word, as it came forth from the mouth of the Holy One, whose Name be blessed, was like storms, and lightnings, and flames of fire, with a burning light on His right hand and on His left. It winged its way through the air of the heavens, and was made manifest unto the camp of Israel, and returned, and was engraved on the tablets of the covenant that were given by the hand of Mosheh, and were turned in them from side to side: and then called He, and said, “Sons of Israel, my people, I am the Lord your God, who brought you out free from the land of Mizraim, from the house of the bondage of slaves.”

The second word which came forth from the mouth of the Holy One, whose Name be blessed, was like storms, and lightnings, and flames of fire. A burning light was on His right hand and on His left and was borne through the air of the heavens, returned, and was made manifest unto the camp of Israel; it returned, and was engraved on the tablets of the covenant, and was turned in them from side to side. Then called He, and said, "House of Israel, my people, you shall have no other God besides me. You shall not make to yourselves image or figure, or any likeness of what is in the heavens above, or on the earth beneath, or in the waters under the earth. You shall not bow down to them, or worship before them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God and an avenger, punishing with vengeance, recording the guilt of wicked fathers upon rebellious children unto the third and unto the fourth generation of them who hate me; but keeping mercy and goodness for thousands of generations of the righteous who love me, and who keep my commandments and my laws.

“My people of the house of Israel, let no one of you swear by the name of the Word of the Lord your God in vain; for in the day of the great judgment the Lord will not hold guiltless any one who swears by His name in vain…”

• Targum Pseudo-Jonathan on Exodus 20

When Moses would speak and make the Decalogue heard to Israel - for they heard from the mouth of God only “I am…” and “You shall not have” (Makkot 24a) - the Holy One, blessed be He, would assist him [Moses] by giving him strength so that his voice would be strong and audible.

• Rashi, Commentary on Exodus 19:19

 

[carmichael2359]

Nita, yes, I agree, I mentioned that in the post above.

 

[carmichael2359]

Ah, Patrick, that is exactly like what my research showed! Thank you very much. I don’t have internet on my home computer, do all my posting is being done via this little Android phone. I’m not able to open multiple windows or copy and paste much. So I really do appreciate you pulling that all together. One of the most informative Scripture stuffy courses I ever took was by a Jewish scholar, Paul Berkowitz. And before anyone yells at me… It was sponsored by our diocese in the Undercroft of our cathedral, lol.

 

[Darryl1958]

Hi, I’m aware that in the Pentateuch (Jewish Torah), the Mosaic Code actually puts forth 613 separate commandments: 365 stated negatively and 248 positively. Tradition states that the first two of what we call the Ten Commandments came directly from God, and the other 611 came through Moses. (Also, the numerical value of the word Torah adds up to 611!) I have read many answers to my next question, but those Scripture scholars were not Catholic, so that’s why I am asking here: how did the Church settle on just the Decalogue? I mean, we no longer worry about blending fibers for material, we no longer eat kosher (which can be loosely traced back to Peter’s vision in Acts 10:9-16, except that was explained to be a broader reason later in Acts 11:1-18); we don’t worry about eating blood or transfusions, we don’t separate women off when they’re have a menstrual cycle, we don’t observe the Sabbath years, etc. How, then, did the decision on keeping the “Top Ten” and not the others, come about, especially if only the first two were directly from God?

Codifying 613 comes much later in medieval times with Maimonides of Spain.

The reason that Christianity is more a religion of inner transformation rather than outer observation of law traces back to Jesus and Paul, and their attitudes.

 

[carmichael2359]

Oh, ok, thanks for the info. I’ll research that.