How did we lose them?

[Darryl_B]

Sorry. Don’t see a fleck of difference. You are in the church, so necessarily have to have the opinion you do.

Sorry, but in your terminology I have been “in” the church for 2 weeks. Before that I was evangelical for 20 years. I do see a considerable difference.

 

[Itineris]

As someone who just recently moved from a large Evangelical church to being a confirmed Catholic, I think this conversation is very interesting. I agree with many of the points made here. The mega-church I used to attend had a program where someone who ‘Said Yes to Jesus’ was quickly shepherded into a whirlwind of activities for new believers. They even got a free cup of coffee at the in-church coffee shop!

I think many people are impressed with being showered with attention and love of others. You could get baptized again (or for the first time) if you wanted, take communion, and become a member without much effort. If you missed a couple weeks of church, no problem. There are no real obligations, except you will be asked to donate money pretty frequently. I think that is all very appealing to some people. They feel ‘free’.

However, I had grown weary of that approach quite some time before becoming Catholic. I wondered what was ‘wrong’ with me for wanting a deep, well-thought-out gospel message that had withstood the test of time. Turns out there was nothing wrong with me except for a yearning to experience the fullness of Christ’s church.

 

[SteveVH]

his reason for conversion was the notion of ‘accepting Christ as my personal lord and saviour’…

…I have uncovered the beauty of the church recently, and its depth.

To accept Jesus as one’s Lord and Savior means to accept the Church Jesus founded.

 

[Sochi]

Sorry, but in your terminology I have been “in” the church for 2 weeks. Before that I was evangelical for 20 years. I do see a considerable difference.

Cool. Can’t dispute your personal experience. Only stating mine. Maybe things are different here in the States?

 

[benhur]

I just watched a video called ‘Why I’m no longer Catholic’ on Youtube.
Now, I’m a recent revert to the church and I’m not confident in apologetics, but I wanted to sream at this man! Oddly enough he had disabled comments on his video! Hmm.

His main gripe, and his reason for conversion was the notion of ‘accepting Christ as my personal lord and saviour’ and making that commitment to Christ in prayer. It seems this is what had been lacking in his faith previously- a personal encounter with Jesus.
But- as catholics- we can all do this! We can all say this! It doesn’t change catholic doctrine, and furthermore, we can be in a very close relationship with christ in the Eucharist.
Where did we go wrong? I mean specifically if this is the argument- that Catholics do not have a close relationship or acceptance of Christ.
I have uncovered the beauty of the church recently, and its depth. To quote Patrick Coffin- the church is like a building which you keep on exploring- and more and more floors are added. Then you go into the garden…there are flowers, and other great joys to behold…

But- if the average person doesn’t look- they might miss it. How can this be? Surely all Catholics, receiving the Eucharist and sacraments, should be filled with the holy spirit, understand the fullness of their faith, and therefore remain in the bosom of the church with all her help and graces instead of leaving to find this personal encounter elsewhere?

I am of the opinion that in my time the CC and some PC was very good at planting seeds, even a bit of the fear of God but the reaped in a harvest by giving many Catholics new birth they claim was not there before. I also believe there was a revival in the 70’s in PC and a bit later in CC also with charismatic movement. Don’t know about today though I have read in S America quite a few C’s are going P (evangelical)…I think part of the problem as has been described to me is that in CC and some PC’s there is the assumption, even teaching, that you are born again at infant baptism, and further strengthened at confirmation (effectual sacraments). They later are frustrated by that assumption though it doesn’t answer the unchanged proclivity to habitual sin/confession or proclivity to the world with little difference with it. If indeed they are "low’’, frustrated, uninterested yet guilty, there is little recourse other than more of the same (mass/confession, penance rituals etc). Now when they are told by evangelical P’s there perception/feelings are normal but due to not really being born again as an infant, they see a way out (be really born again let God do the work in you instead of the other way around) . They are told all things can become new and indeed they do for them, like never before. They are told about Nicodemus a hving the same problem…This is not a CC-P phenomenom . It can happen in any church. I have listened to C’s testimony on Catholic radio and they testify of similar experience as an adult , like a conversion experience even though they have been in CC since birth ( they will not say they were born again though) but indeed all things were new and they had fire in their belly naturally, without laborious effort…I just feel then it is dangerous to assume any one is born again, that they have met Christ in spirit and truth, in and thru grace. And to tell them to do more spiritual things and to just “see” Jesus here or there is in vain and may make things worse…It really rests on the fundamentals of rightly discerning the gospel with putting salvation in a box (as any church can do).

 

[benhur]

To accept Jesus as one’s Lord and Savior means to accept the Church Jesus founded.

Yes, Jesus definitely puts you in the church, the Body, but being in the church does not necessarily put you in Christ.

 

[Darryl_B]

Cool. Can’t dispute your personal experience. Only stating mine. Maybe things are different here in the States?

Maybe things are different in the States, but I doubt it. Maybe my country instead has grabbed hold of the mega-church evangelical philosophy that originated in the USA, and ran with it howbeit on a smaller scale. Churches trying desperately to be relevant in an otherwise self absorbed society. That is what makes the Catholic Church so different, they are not trying to give me what I want, they are doing what they have always done, save the lost.

 

[Darryl_B]

I am of the opinion that in my time the CC and some PC was very good at planting seeds, even a bit of the fear of God but the reaped in a harvest by giving many Catholics new birth they claim was not there before. I also believe there was a revival in the 70’s in PC and a bit later in CC also with charismatic movement. Don’t know about today though I have read in S America quite a few C’s are going P (evangelical)…I think part of the problem as has been described to me is that in CC and some PC’s there is the assumption, even teaching, that you are born again at infant baptism, and further strengthened at confirmation (effectual sacraments). They later are frustrated by that assumption though it doesn’t answer the unchanged proclivity to habitual sin/confession or proclivity to the world with little difference with it. If indeed they are "low’’, frustrated, uninterested yet guilty, there is little recourse other than more of the same (mass/confession, penance rituals etc). Now when they are told by evangelical P’s there perception/feelings are normal but due to not really being born again as an infant, they see a way out (be really born again let God do the work in you instead of the other way around) . They are told all things can become new and indeed they do for them, like never before. They are told about Nicodemus a hving the same problem…This is not a CC-P phenomenom . It can happen in any church. I have listened to C’s testimony on Catholic radio and they testify of similar experience as an adult , like a conversion experience even though they have been in CC since birth ( they will not say they were born again though) but indeed all things were new and they had fire in their belly naturally, without laborious effort…I just feel then it is dangerous to assume any one is born again, that they have met Christ in spirit and truth, in and thru grace. And to tell them to do more spiritual things and to just “see” Jesus here or there is in vain and may make things worse…It really rests on the fundamentals of rightly discerning the gospel with putting salvation in a box (as any church can do).

The only assumption is the Blessed Virgin Mary, it is a phenomenon.

 

[rcwitness]

I am of the opinion that in my time the CC and some PC was very good at planting seeds, even a bit of the fear of God but the reaped in a harvest by giving many Catholics new birth they claim was not there before. I also believe there was a revival in the 70’s in PC and a bit later in CC also with charismatic movement. Don’t know about today though I have read in S America quite a few C’s are going P (evangelical)…I think part of the problem as has been described to me is that in CC and some PC’s there is the assumption, even teaching, that you are born again at infant baptism, and further strengthened at confirmation (effectual sacraments). They later are frustrated by that assumption though it doesn’t answer the unchanged proclivity to habitual sin/confession or proclivity to the world with little difference with it. If indeed they are "low’’, frustrated, uninterested yet guilty, there is little recourse other than more of the same (mass/confession, penance rituals etc). Now when they are told by evangelical P’s there perception/feelings are normal but due to not really being born again as an infant, they see a way out (be really born again let God do the work in you instead of the other way around) . They are told all things can become new and indeed they do for them, like never before. They are told about Nicodemus a hving the same problem…This is not a CC-P phenomenom . It can happen in any church. I have listened to C’s testimony on Catholic radio and they testify of similar experience as an adult , like a conversion experience even though they have been in CC since birth ( they will not say they were born again though) but indeed all things were new and they had fire in their belly naturally, without laborious effort…I just feel then it is dangerous to assume any one is born again, that they have met Christ in spirit and truth, in and thru grace. And to tell them to do more spiritual things and to just “see” Jesus here or there is in vain and may make things worse…It really rests on the fundamentals of rightly discerning the gospel with putting salvation in a box (as any church can do).

Good comments.

I think the ‘infant Baptism’ and ‘born again’ faith must be Taught better in the Catholic Faith!

What it comes down to, is the responsibility of the parents who present their child for Baptism to provide a true faith in the Gospel. Without this, how will the child ever be born of the Spirit after his/her Baptismal forgiveness?

I think the responsibility of Baptizing children is very low in the Church. Too many parents go through the Sacraments in hope that their duty is ‘off the hook’ when in reality, it is more important than ever!

Then, Confirmation should afford the young person much more freedom of will. Let their hesitations, reservations, doubts, disbelief be heard and respected! Let them deal with their faith before being Confirmed! Otherwise, they are actually receiving a blessing unworthily, but coersed into it by their parents and teachers, and there disbelief may allow anger and resentment to guide their soul.

Paz de Cristo
Michael

 

[rcwitness]

Yes, Jesus definitely puts you in the church, the Body, but being in the church does not necessarily put you in Christ.

I agree with you, but this is also accurate…

Being in the Church puts Jesus in you. Putting Jesus in you while remaining in sin puts the guilt of profaning the body and blood of Jesus in you.

Paz
Michael

 

[Cat]

I see a lot of replies in this thread that seem to me to assume that Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants and especially megachurch members, have a shallow faith.

In any church, including the Catholic Church, you will find people with a shallow faith, or even with no faith who just go through the motions (which, IMO, demonstrates some faith)

But I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have a deep, vibrant faith in Jesus Christ that has carried them through many trials and temptations throughout the decades of their lives.

Also, I am seeing an assumption here that many Protestants (again, especially the Evangelical Protestants) have a shallow knowledge base of their faith, and instead, rely on emotionalism, music, and theatrical “gimmicks” to keep them going to church.

Yes, there are Protestants who haven’t cracked open their Bible in years, and only know a very basic “milk” of the Word.

But again, I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have put in many hours of study and can not only explain their faith, but who know entire books of the Bible by memory (just like St. Anthony of Padua!)

I can list dozens, perhaps hundreds, of “intellectual” Protestants who have written some very deep books and articles. My personal favorite is Charles Colson (RIP), who converted to Christianity as a result of his Watergate crimes, and spent the rest of his life writing and speaking, as well as founding worthwhile organizations like Prison Fellowship and Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

I urge all Christians to stop making assumptions about their fellow Christians. Just as Protestants are wrong when they assume that all Catholics are drunkards who worship statues, Catholics are wrong to assume that all Evangelical Protestants are shallow thinkers who rely on rock music and emotions.

 

[Marie5890]

I see a lot of replies in this thread that seem to me to assume that Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants and especially megachurch members, have a shallow faith.

In any church, including the Catholic Church, you will find people with a shallow faith, or even with no faith who just go through the motions (which, IMO, demonstrates some faith)

But I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have a deep, vibrant faith in Jesus Christ that has carried them through many trials and temptations throughout the decades of their lives.

Also, I am seeing an assumption here that many Protestants (again, especially the Evangelical Protestants) have a shallow knowledge base of their faith, and instead, rely on emotionalism, music, and theatrical “gimmicks” to keep them going to church.

Yes, there are Protestants who haven’t cracked open their Bible in years, and only know a very basic “milk” of the Word.

But again, I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have put in many hours of study and can not only explain their faith, but who know entire books of the Bible by memory (just like St. Anthony of Padua!)

I can list dozens, perhaps hundreds, of “intellectual” Protestants who have written some very deep books and articles. My personal favorite is Charles Colson (RIP), who converted to Christianity as a result of his Watergate crimes, and spent the rest of his life writing and speaking, as well as founding worthwhile organizations like Prison Fellowship and Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

I urge all Christians to stop making assumptions about their fellow Christians. Just as Protestants are wrong when they assume that all Catholics are drunkards who worship statues, Catholics are wrong to assume that all Evangelical Protestants are shallow thinkers who rely on rock music and emotions.

Thank you. Sometimes our biases have us thinking in a very shallow manner.
There are many people who have a vibrant, living and breathing relationship and faith in Our Lord, and (hold on to your hats, folks) are not Catholic.

 

[Marie5890]

To accept Jesus as one’s Lord and Savior means to accept the Church Jesus founded.

Too simplistic a view in light of the practical reality of many Christians who are not Catholic.

 

[rcwitness]

I see a lot of replies in this thread that seem to me to assume that Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants and especially megachurch members, have a shallow faith.

In any church, including the Catholic Church, you will find people with a shallow faith, or even with no faith who just go through the motions (which, IMO, demonstrates some faith)

But I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have a deep, vibrant faith in Jesus Christ that has carried them through many trials and temptations throughout the decades of their lives.

Also, I am seeing an assumption here that many Protestants (again, especially the Evangelical Protestants) have a shallow knowledge base of their faith, and instead, rely on emotionalism, music, and theatrical “gimmicks” to keep them going to church.

Yes, there are Protestants who haven’t cracked open their Bible in years, and only know a very basic “milk” of the Word.

But again, I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have put in many hours of study and can not only explain their faith, but who know entire books of the Bible by memory (just like St. Anthony of Padua!)

I can list dozens, perhaps hundreds, of “intellectual” Protestants who have written some very deep books and articles. My personal favorite is Charles Colson (RIP), who converted to Christianity as a result of his Watergate crimes, and spent the rest of his life writing and speaking, as well as founding worthwhile organizations like Prison Fellowship and Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

I urge all Christians to stop making assumptions about their fellow Christians. Just as Protestants are wrong when they assume that all Catholics are drunkards who worship statues, Catholics are wrong to assume that all Evangelical Protestants are shallow thinkers who rely on rock music and emotions.

 

[dronald]

I see a lot of replies in this thread that seem to me to assume that Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants and especially megachurch members, have a shallow faith.

In any church, including the Catholic Church, you will find people with a shallow faith, or even with no faith who just go through the motions (which, IMO, demonstrates some faith)

But I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have a deep, vibrant faith in Jesus Christ that has carried them through many trials and temptations throughout the decades of their lives.

Also, I am seeing an assumption here that many Protestants (again, especially the Evangelical Protestants) have a shallow knowledge base of their faith, and instead, rely on emotionalism, music, and theatrical “gimmicks” to keep them going to church.

Yes, there are Protestants who haven’t cracked open their Bible in years, and only know a very basic “milk” of the Word.

But again, I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have put in many hours of study and can not only explain their faith, but who know entire books of the Bible by memory (just like St. Anthony of Padua!)

I can list dozens, perhaps hundreds, of “intellectual” Protestants who have written some very deep books and articles. My personal favorite is Charles Colson (RIP), who converted to Christianity as a result of his Watergate crimes, and spent the rest of his life writing and speaking, as well as founding worthwhile organizations like Prison Fellowship and Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

I urge all Christians to stop making assumptions about their fellow Christians. Just as Protestants are wrong when they assume that all Catholics are drunkards who worship statues, Catholics are wrong to assume that all Evangelical Protestants are shallow thinkers who rely on rock music and emotions.

Thank you.

 

[JRKH]

I see a lot of replies in this thread that seem to me to assume that Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants and especially megachurch members, have a shallow faith.

In any church, including the Catholic Church, you will find people with a shallow faith, or even with no faith who just go through the motions (which, IMO, demonstrates some faith)

But I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have a deep, vibrant faith in Jesus Christ that has carried them through many trials and temptations throughout the decades of their lives.

Also, I am seeing an assumption here that many Protestants (again, especially the Evangelical Protestants) have a shallow knowledge base of their faith, and instead, rely on emotionalism, music, and theatrical “gimmicks” to keep them going to church.

Yes, there are Protestants who haven’t cracked open their Bible in years, and only know a very basic “milk” of the Word.

But again, I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have put in many hours of study and can not only explain their faith, but who know entire books of the Bible by memory (just like St. Anthony of Padua!)

I can list dozens, perhaps hundreds, of “intellectual” Protestants who have written some very deep books and articles. My personal favorite is Charles Colson (RIP), who converted to Christianity as a result of his Watergate crimes, and spent the rest of his life writing and speaking, as well as founding worthwhile organizations like Prison Fellowship and Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

I urge all Christians to stop making assumptions about their fellow Christians. Just as Protestants are wrong when they assume that all Catholics are drunkards who worship statues, Catholics are wrong to assume that all Evangelical Protestants are shallow thinkers who rely on rock music and emotions.

 

[adawgj]

I belonged to various Protestant groups from age 26 to age 55. Was not brought up in any church or group. Finally became Catholic at age 55. Had been in and out of so many different Protestant, evangelical and Pentecostal groups that when my wife started looking into Catholicism and joined an RCIA, I simply followed along, all the while thinking “This is just another ‘thing’ like all the rest of them”. But, here I am, 12 years later, struggling to learn the Catholic Faith, overwhelmed at how much I still don’t know, but actually wanting MORE. I’ve found the Catholic Church doesn’t stoke my emotions. Rather it appeals to my intellect, which the Protestant Faith did not. (btw. I am now 67).

So true, that’s how I felt when I reverted back to The Church.

 

[rcwitness]

I see a lot of replies in this thread that seem to me to assume that Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants and especially megachurch members, have a shallow faith.

In any church, including the Catholic Church, you will find people with a shallow faith, or even with no faith who just go through the motions (which, IMO, demonstrates some faith)

But I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have a deep, vibrant faith in Jesus Christ that has carried them through many trials and temptations throughout the decades of their lives.

Also, I am seeing an assumption here that many Protestants (again, especially the Evangelical Protestants) have a shallow knowledge base of their faith, and instead, rely on emotionalism, music, and theatrical “gimmicks” to keep them going to church.

Yes, there are Protestants who haven’t cracked open their Bible in years, and only know a very basic “milk” of the Word.

But again, I can testify to knowing many Evangelical Protestants who have put in many hours of study and can not only explain their faith, but who know entire books of the Bible by memory (just like St. Anthony of Padua!)

I can list dozens, perhaps hundreds, of “intellectual” Protestants who have written some very deep books and articles. My personal favorite is Charles Colson (RIP), who converted to Christianity as a result of his Watergate crimes, and spent the rest of his life writing and speaking, as well as founding worthwhile organizations like Prison Fellowship and Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

I urge all Christians to stop making assumptions about their fellow Christians. Just as Protestants are wrong when they assume that all Catholics are drunkards who worship statues, Catholics are wrong to assume that all Evangelical Protestants are shallow thinkers who rely on rock music and emotions.

I agree with this:thumbsup:

So I hope my posts have not conveyed the impression that merely being Catholic makes someone greater than all Protestants!

Many Protestants live a great and true faith according to Catholic Teaching!

This fact does not mean these same Protestants are better off NOT being fully Catholic!

All Christians will better serve the Lord and build up His Church by defending the Catholic Faith.

**Why don’t Catholics who are subject to clergy abuse in their parish, or a shortage of financial funds in their parish, or a lack of vollunteers in their parish, or teachers in their parish who stray from Catholic Teaching pick up their Cross and confront it, instead of taking to the highway and finding some Protestant community who is, for a time, not subject to all these trials???
**
Paz de Cristo,
Michael

 

[on_the_hill]

GangGreen’s statement need not be pointed at religious of any stripe. Strong Catholic education and leadership is most important in the home. It is the parents who will have the greatest effect on the Child’s education in the faith. Second to this is the local Church community itself - with or without a school. It needs to be strong, faithful and a good example to the kids.
With these, faithful Catholics are raised with or without formal Catholic schooling. Without these, formal schooling has an uphill battle.

Peace
James

I thnk that puts too much of the responsibility on priests and nuns. One aspect of this that has not been mentioned is the importance of prayer. How can we have vocations if we don’t pray for them? How can our religious be strong if we don’t pray for them? It’s really a two-way street.

Lack of strong Catholic education and lack of strong Catholic leadership would be a good place to start,

The blog I referenced in an earlier post was making similar arguments, again, from a Protestant perspective. That the Protestant churches are losing men, in particular, because of a lack of leadership, involvement, etc.

What I’m getting at is this is a problem not faced by Catholicism alone, but by ‘traditional’ faiths generally.

 

[Cat]

I agree with this:thumbsup:

So I hope my posts have not conveyed the impression that merely being Catholic makes someone greater than all Protestants!

Many Protestants live a great and true faith according to Catholic Teaching!

This fact does not mean these same Protestants are better off NOT being fully Catholic!

All Christians will better serve the Lord and build up His Church by defending the Catholic Faith.

**Why don’t Catholics who are subject to clergy abuse in their parish, or a shortage of financial funds in their parish, or a lack of vollunteers in their parish, or teachers in their parish who stray from Catholic Teaching pick up their Cross and confront it, instead of taking to the highway and finding some Protestant community who is, for a time, not subject to all these trials???
**
Paz de Cristo,
Michael

Many Protestant communities do have all these same problems, although the abuse is not limited to clergy.

I think most Catholics who leave the Church end up abandoning church altogether. Same for Protestants. They may search for a few years, but eventually, the emotional pain of finding a hopeful-looking church, and then discovering the inadequacies of that church, or being hurt by someone in that church, and then having this same thing happen over and over again, becomes too gut-wrenching, and the seeker just gives up.

It is emotionally exhausting to look for a church. That’s why we who are in the Church have to seek out the seeker, rather than waiting for them to seek us out!