How did we switched to 'ad populum' masses?

[mercygate]

Then those that don’t think it was a big change won’t mind changing back. But the truth is, It actually is a big change. Psychologically and liturgically, the theological expression is different.

Most priests of all stripes will admit that being the “master of ceremonies” distracts the congregation from Christ and the brings it to the priest. This is why people gravitate towards the priests they like instead of Christ at Calvary.

That is extremely debatable.

Excellent post. Apostrophe: The oldest known ABOVE GROUND church in the world dates from about 245 A.D. (Dura-Europos). The altar is smack up against the wall.

Irrelevant. The Mass is more than the Last Supper. It is Calvary first and foremost.

Archeologism is not a reason to bring back an undeveloped form of liturgy.

Yes. And each time the priest kisses the altar he is commemorating the early martyrs.

No. He was leading the people to God. He didn’t turn his back on God in order to be the master of ceremonies.

That according to Msgr Klaus Gamber was the exception not the rule because of pagan Roman influences. And even in those circumstances, during the Eucharistic prayers, the congregation turned their backs to the priest.

How many?

Origen, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria all stated that worship was Eastward.

What Seminary was that? Post conciliar seminaries are notorious for redacting the most Catholic of elements.

Actually it was the liturgical innovators of the 30’s that started the “facing the people” in light of their Fruedian, Marxist, Darwinian mentalities.

So you imagine. But it’s not. The priest in the Old Temple didn’t face the people when he approached the Holy of Holies.

Why??? The numbers in attendance, the orthodoxy and the liturgical abuse don’t seem to have been positively affected by priests facing the people.

The priest is supposed to become transparent during the Mass. Watch a TLM and the priest is almost anonymous. You see a cross on his back and you see Our Lord at the Elevation, not a priest’s face.

 

[Sure]

Could it all have started because people wanted to emulate the arrangement in St. Peter’s where the priest was geographically facing east, but also facing the people?

It seems we should abandon facing geographically east as many churches over the past 100 years and more were built facing all sorts of directions. Instead we should focus on bringing back liturgical east.

I think a prudent tactic would be to emphasize the importance of the priest and people facing the same direction since they are all, together but led by the priest, offering the sacrifice up to the Lord. This is very much in keeping with an emphasis on the community and the participation of the congregation (wink, wink). If the community really wants to be participating in the Mass they should be facing the same direction as the priest!

 

[Markstorm]

It’s nice to have a Holy Father willing to debunk myths and give us the truth without ducking around.

Well to be honest I’m laughing a little now

 

[stmaria]

QUOTE=Sure;3042173]Could it all have started because people wanted to emulate the arrangement in St. Peter’s where the priest was geographically facing east, but also facing the people?

]

No that is not why it was started. The Priest facing the people was an innovation of Protestant reformer Thomas Cranmer’s service celebrated on a table facing the people.in 1549.
Father Bugnini introduced this into the Novus Ordo in 1967. This was no accident. Just like introducing communion in the hand, communion under both kinds, vernacular Mass etc. All these innovations were to make the Mass more ecumenical and less offensive to protestants.

Latin Mass
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/ordo.htm

 

[AJV]

]

No that is not why it was started. The Priest facing the people was an innovation of Protestant reformer Thomas Cranmer’s service celebrated on a table facing the people.in 1549.
Father Bugnini introduced this into the Novus Ordo in 1967.

Actually, the injunctions of the 1549 BCP itself did not ask to face the people. It kept the priest at the middle of the altar and mentions him “turning to the people” and “turning to the altar” .
IMO, the comparison at that site is highly flawed and one sided in some areas and inaccurate in others.

In fact, celebration facing the people came a lot earlier than 1967. Remember Pius XII’s allocution at Assisi where he tacitly condoned the ad populum altar while insisting the tabernacle not be separated from it. In fact, in the document embodying this legislation “Urbi et Orbi” in 1957, the commentary written in “Epheridmes liturgicae” (as well as another one in Worship by Fr. McMannus) started the habit of introducing a second altar into the sanctuary so that Mass could be celebrated versus populum while retaining the tabernacle on the High Altar.

The rubrics of the Mass do forsee a certain limited application of ad populum (see at SanctaMissa the sections V and XII –I’d have linked to it but my ISP blocks it). But not always was ad populum celebrated facing geographical East- take (one of beloved examples ) Lugano where many Churchmen including Cardinal Ottaviani celebrated ad populum on an altar that was not facing geographic East. And certainly many of the pictures given in “The Mass of the Future” are not geographical-East facing.

I think actually that the whole idea of facing East was removed from consciousness more or less- people at the time bought into and accepted the idea that ad populum was the early practice, retained at Rome. Many of the ad populum arrangements initially copied that of Rome complete with place for the schola. Most of the justification for the practice at that period is also connected with the Roman basilican arrangement and how it represented a more authentic tradition.

Certainly, certain ceremonial manuals assumed that the Pope, on the rare occasion he celebrated Mass publicly, always faced the people. East didn’t figure into the equation. Thus, for example, when Pius VI went to Vienna in the 18th century, the high altar was shrouded and the Pope celebrated Mass at an altar facing the people. See the picture: here (unfortunately a black and white copy- the colour copy is under copyright AFAIK)