How did you discern your spouse? Especially for those who did very chastely/courtship

[ExDeoVita]

ExDeoVita, how would a woman wisely let it be known she’s available or interested in That Guy but not That Guy Over There?

Not my dad! He’ll laugh and laugh and ask “Do you even know my daughter? Did you ask HER permission first? She’s 25 and 1000 miles away living on her own! That’s precious…”

In other words, know her situation and what’d she’d appreciate. Me, I’d like the guy just to introduce himself to my roommates (who have more faith than my folks) and inform his wise Catholic older guy friends that we’ve started this courtship/exclusive dating/Facebook official thing and he promises to keep chaste as we discern how God wants us to relate to each other in the long run.

siena_avila, you have a good thread going, just to follow up because I think we are essentially in agreement -

I think we could agree on those two points. Asking a young lady’s father should depend on her relationship with him, and only that can be realized once the young man knows enough about her and her family situation. Sadly there are a lot of broken relationships between fathers and daughters and then there are the abusive relationships… I suppose my statement was based on a little of prudence. While I would still ideally like to initiate the relationship (knowing the young lady in interested) by asking the fathers permission, I do realize there are situations where that just wouldn’t work, or might even be the wrong thing to do.

Pertaining to the one who should be the ‘initiator’, I really do understand what you are saying and I have seen situations play out when as you said ‘the girls try not to show any signs of interest’ and leave the guys totally in the dark. I’m just saying I think it should be the guy to make the first ‘big’ leap and broach the question / officially begin the relationship…then courtship. Speaking for myself, I would certainly appreciate it if a young lady were to throw me some sort of hint…not necessarialy flirting, but perhaps acknowlodging that she enjoyed conversing with you, shared your values, understood your point of view…ect. Merely doing something like that would be more than enough for me to realize the ‘potential’ of a relationship with this young lady.

However, for a young lady to brazenly ask a young man out on a date, or initiate some sort of second encounter exclusively with the man (in my opinion) would be going too far. This topic always tends have a blurry line, because I think there are specific situations where the young lady could be more of the initiator, like if she know of future events that a young man wasn’t aware of (perhaps because he was new to the area) and she merely extended a general invite to him as a matter of fact kind of thing…then let things continue to play out. There again, he would finally be the one asking the initial question… so in a sense I think you and I are on the same page…

Let me throw this question out, how would a young lady feel about a young man who given a couple a well placed ‘hints’ still failed to initiate things? Would the assumption be ‘this guy just isn’t interested in me?’ or would she think ‘I just need to try harder and be more outgoing.’ ?

 

[siena_avila]

ExDeo,

First, I must say i don’t mean to impugn anything against my father! He’s a jovial, loving, great dad, if a bit modern when it comes to dating. I didn’t date until grad school and I was on my own, so he never dealt with boys coming to the house. And if I ever moved home and had someone come pick me up, my dad would just be the sort to invite him in for a beer and to watch the game or something.

Personally, if a guy asked permission before informing me of his intentions toward me, I wouldn’t be too angry, but I would say that I’d have preferred instead of seeking permission, just introducing himself after he’d asked me for a date. My permission matters most! My mother is actually the one who’d appreciate the gesture more, actually.

how would a young lady feel about a young man who given a couple a well placed ‘hints’ still failed to initiate things? Would the assumption be ‘this guy just isn’t interested in me?’ or would she think ‘I just need to try harder and be more outgoing.’

It would depend on the guy and how well I knew him. I might ask confidants in the group who knew him better to try to suss out whether he was shy or uninterested. How would I feel? If I really liked the guy, I might feel quietly rejected. But I’ve worn the other shoe and understand that sometimes you just don’t feel called to a relationship with a person, and it’s hard to figure out how to do a gentle let down. What would I do? Send a witty e-mail or chat message about how in case he didn’t get the hint, I liked him, compliment him, and hopefully that passive communication would make it easier for him to let me down, or reveal mutual feelings.

Now, a question to all commentors:

What do you do when you potentially have more than one interested suitor, and you want one over all the others, AND you’re all a part of the same group of friends that spends up to 3 evenings a week together? In college we jokingly called it “church-cest,” and here I am 7 years later, and facing the same thing!

 

[ac_claire]

What do you do when you potentially have more than one interested suitor, and you want one over all the others, AND you’re all a part of the same group of friends that spends up to 3 evenings a week together? In college we jokingly called it “church-cest,” and here I am 7 years later, and facing the same thing!

Drop hints to the one you like; see if he gives you any hints that the feeling is mutual. Meanwhile, maintain the other friendships…Don’t burn your other bridges just yet until you *know *that your lead horse is running for you, you know what I mean?

 

[DL82]

What do you do when you potentially have more than one interested suitor, and you want one over all the others, AND you’re all a part of the same group of friends that spends up to 3 evenings a week together? In college we jokingly called it “church-cest,” and here I am 7 years later, and facing the same thing!

Seriously, I have always been kind of awkward and never really noticed when women are flirting with me, so I didn’t notice that there seem to be several women in my circle of Church friends who seem interested in me until I already had a girlfriend and then noticed their reactions! Thankfully, I’m very much in love with my girlfriend and won’t be tempted in that direction.

You could always try pretending to already have a boyfriend and see how that goes down with the group

 

[Norseman82]

Okay, let me know if you find it.

Sorry about resurrecting an old thread, but you wanted me to let you know if I found it. It wasn’t in “This Rock”, but rather in one of Karl Keating’s other columns (either an e-letter or newsletter):

catholic.com/newsletters/kke_080108.asp

 

[Catheriena]

chev…bravo about the comment with platonic becoming sexual. Still believe there is no better soul mate than your best friend. If you can care so much about each other, that no matter the worse sin you can think of, IF that person came up and said they did it to you, and you still love them, there’s hope for the “long haul.” It’s about commitment and doing your duty, period. If the person has that toward you, you’ve got a “soul mate.” Just my 2 cents lol

 

[ChiRho]

Although this is an old thread, I hope more people with experience in marriage can comment on how they themselves went about the process. It’s more helpful than you realize, especially to young Catholics who are not encouraged to pursue chaste relationships by most of the world

 

[Vatican2Rocks]

Hi, all. I originally posted these words in the Vocations forum, but I figured I’d get specific answers here.

Hello. I’m new, so forgive me if this is long. At 25, I have been feeling the attraction to marriage, and not just because I don’t want to be lonely or want to have kids. I truly believe it’s the best way I can serve God using the gifts He’s given me.

I’ve had a few short-term (about 6-8 weeks) “relationships” that went nowhere and now I’m praying for the right way to find who God intends for me. Lately, I’ve been attracted to the idea of courtship, and my roommate’s book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” made so much sense and diagnosed what went wrong in previous attempts at relationships.

Courtship preserves chastity, which I’ll admit was a struggle (but not abstinence. gotta love Catholics-only dating sites) in previous attempts at relationship, despite limiting myself to Catholics on reputable dating sites. But the process characterizes the way I envisioned dating: talking, laughing, praying and learning about each other without pressure for anything.

But I have two huge doubts I need help overcoming.

1. Some modes recommend not spending any time alone together or even when going out in groups to not focus on each other too much. I get what that recommendation protects people from, but I keep thinking that that process hinders deep communication that will be necessary for the long haul and doesn’t prepare you for the realities of a decades-long marriage (communicating about life-changing issues, overcoming the rough patches, and seeing people’s true, private behaviors/emotional responses and not just what they show in public). So what behaviors or signs did you get from your spouse that you could trust you could make it through?

2)My best relationships have been with guys who are friends, but in modern terms, we’ve “friend-zoned” each other, meaning there’s no romantic desire or interest in pursuing a potential spousal relationship. A lot of definitions of courtship sound like you have a guy friend or, even worse, treat the guy like your brother (Grad school has forever tainted my mind with all the Greek psychosis that can cause). So how do you make sure that when you’re acting just like friends, you don’t inevitably “friend-zone” each other, especially when (most likely) both people have only known conventional dating?

Thanks for reading and any commentary you can provide!

if i were you i would chuck out all dating advice that is protestant specifically anything that can be found in one of their dating books. you are catholic, not protestant. catholic dating and protestant dating are not interchangeable. they come at from very different perspectives. i would chuck that book called i kissed dating good bye.

i would chuck the triangle-pyramid thing

i would instead buy the book how to marry the man of your choice by margaret kent because you have a big role to play in picking the one. and this fits catholic teaching more closely than protestant ideas about dating.

also if you can find it, you may have to order it, an old book by a catholic priest called “chastity: a guide for teens and adults” by gerald kelly sj

 

[GraceDK]

if i were you i would chuck out all dating advice that is protestant specifically anything that can be found in one of their dating books. you are catholic, not protestant. catholic dating and protestant dating are not interchangeable. they come at from very different perspectives. i would chuck that book called i kissed dating good bye.

Hand on the heart, did you ever read “I Kissed Dating Goodbye”??

It gave me the chills it was so good. I, a Catholic, consider translating it to my own language and promoting in in my country. I have a Catholic professor - more Catholic than the Pope in Rome, as we say here - who translated that book into his language a few years ago. He did it mainly for the sake of his daughter who was in trouble at that time, because he found no other book quite as good… and this guy has read all there is for teenagers on chastity.

Jesus Christ and the Word of God is the source for Joshua Harris. I would like to discuss with you which things in that book it is that you disagree with, please. It should be no problem for you making at least, say a list of 3 points.

Or maybe you are just an anti-protestant, protestant-basher, who bash things without caring to read them first.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

Can someone explain how it is that a Catholic woman is supposed to “hint” at her availability? I’m trying to picture flirting that wouldn’t somehow be viewed as sinful. Surely there is something…

Even the other way around, how exactly does a chaste Catholic man pursue a woman? How does he express interest in a way that says “not just friends”?

 

[GraceDK]

Can someone explain how it is that a Catholic woman is supposed to “hint” at her availability? I’m trying to picture flirting that wouldn’t somehow be viewed as sinful. Surely there is something…

Even the other way around, how exactly does a chaste Catholic man pursue a woman? How does he express interest in a way that says “not just friends”?

Eyes…
If a man shows interest (meaning he talks to you, uses your name, shows personal and particular interest in you, initiates contact, wants to spend time with you, and other people notice his interest too) and you are attracted too, then, what I have been told is that a woman’s eyes gives a yes or no to move forward. This is what my boyfriend told me…
But do stay patient enough to wait for him making his intentions clear. A girl shouldn’t have to be the one to do that.
As for flirting? I don’t know about that. Don’t lead a man on… but treat him with kindness, friendliness and send a message that he can tell you honestly about himself.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Not married yet (but, God willing, with the one I’m with now)! I hope I’m still allowed to share!

Mine came out of a long time of singleness and getting my life together. For most of my college career, I was just too busy. Let’s see, I was working nearly full time, attending school full time, interning one summer, active in clubs, picking up music again, then I went to Kenya…yeah, not a lot of time for dating but I did end up thinking about it! Especially because many of my friends are older and devout Catholics/other Christians, so they were starting to get married.

Well, I realized I needed a guy who would not only be Catholic, but save sex for marriage/go to church every Sunday/etc. However, a lot of the guys I knew who fit that were either too domineering and condescending or they didn’t know how to talk to girls AT ALL. I also tend to be a bit more liberal, am passionate about the environment, and I want to travel. It was hard to find a guy who understood that. I wanted someone who understood that I was independent, that I wasn’t necessarily looking for a provider but a partner, a companion.

During that time, I did get friendly with a fellow convert and student. We always knew we had a lot in common, could hold conversations that lasted through the night, and we always had feelings for each other. But it was never the right time. Finally, after I came back, we started talking and he asked me out! We’ve been two peas in a pod ever since and the more time we spend together, the more we feel right for each other. We complement each other pretty well, have similar goals in life, and consider our faith extremely important. We also get along with each other’s families and friends.

We do spend time alone. However, NOT completely alone in each other’s houses (more OK if roommate’s in her room but is still there, kind of thing). We do hold hands, kiss, hug, that sort of thing. Of course, I’m an Italian girl who also travels so affection with platonic friends is natural to me.

My advice? When you know, you KNOW. Don’t sell yourself short on your values. And you don’t need a set of rules other than don’t do what the Church says you shouldn’t. You don’t need “mens roles” and “womens roles.” Just let it flow naturally.

 

[sanctamaria17]

Can someone explain how it is that a Catholic woman is supposed to “hint” at her availability? I’m trying to picture flirting that wouldn’t somehow be viewed as sinful. Surely there is something…

Even the other way around, how exactly does a chaste Catholic man pursue a woman? How does he express interest in a way that says “not just friends”?

Sometimes, she pursues you

And I don’t do hints. I made it clear that I liked him when I turned my head to kiss him on the lips as he kissed my cheek Let’s just say we both had to find courage to express the more than friends thing

 

[GraceDK]

Not married yet (but, God willing, with the one I’m with now)! I hope I’m still allowed to share!

Mine came out of a long time of singleness and getting my life together. For most of my college career, I was just too busy. Let’s see, I was working nearly full time, attending school full time, interning one summer, active in clubs, picking up music again, then I went to Kenya…yeah, not a lot of time for dating but I did end up thinking about it! Especially because many of my friends are older and devout Catholics/other Christians, so they were starting to get married.

Well, I realized I needed a guy who would not only be Catholic, but save sex for marriage/go to church every Sunday/etc. However, a lot of the guys I knew who fit that were either too domineering and condescending or they didn’t know how to talk to girls AT ALL. I also tend to be a bit more liberal, am passionate about the environment, and I want to travel. It was hard to find a guy who understood that. I wanted someone who understood that I was independent, that I wasn’t necessarily looking for a provider but a partner, a companion.

During that time, I did get friendly with a fellow convert and student. We always knew we had a lot in common, could hold conversations that lasted through the night, and we always had feelings for each other. But it was never the right time. Finally, after I came back, we started talking and he asked me out! We’ve been two peas in a pod ever since and the more time we spend together, the more we feel right for each other. We complement each other pretty well, have similar goals in life, and consider our faith extremely important. We also get along with each other’s families and friends.

We do spend time alone. However, NOT completely alone in each other’s houses (more OK if roommate’s in her room but is still there, kind of thing). We do hold hands, kiss, hug, that sort of thing. Of course, I’m an Italian girl who also travels so affection with platonic friends is natural to me.

My advice? When you know, you KNOW. Don’t sell yourself short on your values. And you don’t need a set of rules other than don’t do what the Church says you shouldn’t. You don’t need “mens roles” and “womens roles.” Just let it flow naturally.

You cool girl.
I see my self in your post, want what you wanted (except the evironment and wanting a virgin part) and got… you are truly blessed.
I just got back together with a man who made such an impression on me for a long time and who is my former boyfriend. Or rather… I don’t know if we are really back together, since he might have cooled off in his affection, for he seems rather indifferent and even rude towards me. I sometimes wonder if all men become like that after their in-love phase.
Its tough… I foresee the final end of “us” and I will then be alone again and 2 years older…
Oh my, if that dream for twoness would just go away…

 

[jessiepie]

Hi, all. I originally posted these words in the Vocations forum, but I figured I’d get specific answers here.

Hello. I’m new, so forgive me if this is long. At 25, I have been feeling the attraction to marriage, and not just because I don’t want to be lonely or want to have kids. I truly believe it’s the best way I can serve God using the gifts He’s given me.

I’ve had a few short-term (about 6-8 weeks) “relationships” that went nowhere and now I’m praying for the right way to find who God intends for me. Lately, I’ve been attracted to the idea of courtship, and my roommate’s book “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” made so much sense and diagnosed what went wrong in previous attempts at relationships.

Courtship preserves chastity, which I’ll admit was a struggle (but not abstinence. gotta love Catholics-only dating sites) in previous attempts at relationship, despite limiting myself to Catholics on reputable dating sites. But the process characterizes the way I envisioned dating: talking, laughing, praying and learning about each other without pressure for anything.

But I have two huge doubts I need help overcoming.

1. Some modes recommend not spending any time alone together or even when going out in groups to not focus on each other too much. I get what that recommendation protects people from, but I keep thinking that that process hinders deep communication that will be necessary for the long haul and doesn’t prepare you for the realities of a decades-long marriage (communicating about life-changing issues, overcoming the rough patches, and seeing people’s true, private behaviors/emotional responses and not just what they show in public). So what behaviors or signs did you get from your spouse that you could trust you could make it through?

2)My best relationships have been with guys who are friends, but in modern terms, we’ve “friend-zoned” each other, meaning there’s no romantic desire or interest in pursuing a potential spousal relationship. A lot of definitions of courtship sound like you have a guy friend or, even worse, treat the guy like your brother (Grad school has forever tainted my mind with all the Greek psychosis that can cause). So how do you make sure that when you’re acting just like friends, you don’t inevitably “friend-zone” each other, especially when (most likely) both people have only known conventional dating?

Thanks for reading and any commentary you can provide!

Read “Boy Meets Girl: say Hello to Courtship” Its by the same man who wrote “I kissed Dating goodbye”

 

[chevalier]

Seriously, I know some single women who actually will not consider dating a younger guy. I don’t mean 10 years younger, I mean 10 days younger…they just won’t hear of it, and it’s an absolute mystery to me.

Happened to me actually. The difference was one year, actually, and she seemed to think it was a whole generation.

By the way, not every guy who looks young really is. I look 22 but I’m two notches away from thirtydom.

chev…bravo about the comment with platonic becoming sexual. Still believe there is no better soul mate than your best friend. If you can care so much about each other, that no matter the worse sin you can think of, IF that person came up and said they did it to you, and you still love them, there’s hope for the “long haul.” It’s about commitment and doing your duty, period. If the person has that toward you, you’ve got a “soul mate.” Just my 2 cents lol

Thanks! Well, as a woman’s ideal friend (every woman I’m attracted to wants to be my friend, isn’t this amazing! ), I know whereof you speak. In fact, I often wonder why people don’t try a romantic relationship with that best buddy of theirs who happens to be of the opposite sex (unless maybe a very sibling-like relationship has formed, in which case it could feel like incest, I guess).

Can someone explain how it is that a Catholic woman is supposed to “hint” at her availability?

It’s enough if she doesn’t hide it.

I’m trying to picture flirting that wouldn’t somehow be viewed as sinful. Surely there is something…

Well, there are ways to weave your status in to a conversation. It takes a little creativity to give that information without being misjudged but it can be done.

Whatever people say (in this context) about smiling, laughing, listening attentively, participating and making room for a man in your life is true, and more!

Even the other way around, how exactly does a chaste Catholic man pursue a woman? How does he express interest in a way that says “not just friends”?

He can have himself understood, really.

 

[chevalier]

Or rather… I don’t know if we are really back together, since he might have cooled off in his affection, for he seems rather indifferent and even rude towards me. I sometimes wonder if all men become like that after their in-love phase.

Not really, more like in a relationship that goes bad. Perhaps he’s feeling hurt. A woman can very rude to her friend or “lover” too when she’s feeling hurt. Been on both sides of it.

 

[Glen_Ellen]

Well, I’m not sure I am much help here, but I’ll tell you what happened with me.

I was raised atheist and was not given any moral guidance at all about choosing dating partners. No surprise that they went from bad to worse.

I became a Christian at the age of 24, and really struggled with HOW I was going to date with all the “new rules.” Fortunately for me, I didn’t have much opportunity. The first guy I dated after I became a Christian called it quits after the second date when he found out I wouldn’t sleep with him until marriage. I went running with a guy every Saturday morning for months, getting to know him and growing to like him…until I found out he was just using me as a decoy while another lady at our church was going through a divorce. After she was “free,” I got dumped. They’ve been happily married for 17 years now.

That was it for around 5 years. There were times I was really, really lonely. My friend Ruth used to call them, “Man-Dog-Baby Days,” when you just wanted a man, a dog or a baby and it didn’t matter which. Ruth used to encourage me to just write down everything I wanted in a husband, pray over it, “give it to God” and then throw the list away. Invariably, my list would say things like, “Somebody who will listen to me and try to understand where I’m coming from…” and “Somebody who will be a good dad…” and stuff like that, and it would generally end with, “Somebody like H., only older.”

H. was a young man whom I met because we were both volunteering with the youth program at church. I thought he was far too young for me, but there were a lot of qualities I liked about him.

There was no “crush” stuff going on – no trying to pretty up for him, no acting interested in X, Y or Z just because he was so I’d be making a good impression. We were just honest. We had common interests, but also differences. We shared some goals and values, but we also had different goals and values.

I’m sure you’ve guessed that I’m Mrs. H. now. I joke around that it took five years because I kept telling God, “Somebody like H, only older,” so the Lord waited until H was older. One day, I just turned around and realized that I was madly in love with him. I was completely panicked, because I was pretty sure he wasn’t in love with me, since I was so much older than he was. But then we met a bunch of people at the movies, and afterwards, he offered to give me a ride home, and somehow by the time we got to my apartment, he was professing his love for me, and there it was. We started dating December 4, got engaged March 4 and got married June 4, when I was almost 29 and he was 23. I remember all the raised eyebrows that we were going “too fast,” but really, our relationship was more than 5 years in the making.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a relationship really can grow from just friends to romance.

But I also want to add that the vocation of marriage isn’t a “given,” even if you feel drawn to it. My friend Ruth is still single, but she’s serving the Church and Her people in fabulous ways, and her life is ever bit as fulfilling as mine is. But possibly less annoying because she doesn’t have to share her household with a bunch of other people.

The last part of your story is somewhat similar to mine (from the guy perspective). My wife is 9 years older than I am. We knew each other as friends for 2 years, but both of us (without ever saying it) thought the other was too young / too old. One day we realized that we were not only friends, but best friends, and more than that, totally trusted each other. Long story short, we started “dating,” got engaged after 2 months of that and married within 9 months.

Both sets of parents were shocked, but we have been happily married for 26 years now.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

He can have himself understood, really.

Could he just say, “I would like to take you to dinner, if you are interested.”?

 

[GraceDK]

Not really, more like in a relationship that goes bad. Perhaps he’s feeling hurt. A woman can very rude to her friend or “lover” too when she’s feeling hurt. Been on both sides of it.

Yea… you are right Chevalier… about both things… I have hurt him a million times more than he hurt me, and I can totally understand that he finally cooled off. He was more patient with me that a man should be with a woman with whom he is not married… and actually our relationship never got really good. I was forcing something for the longest time because he has some completely fantastic qualities which made me feel safe and like I’d never meet such a man again… but I am starting to realise that this will all very soon be history if God doesn’t do something right about now.