How Did You Respond to Catholic Marital Submission Law?

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I have a question for members here regarding whether any of you have had the experience of hearing the Church’s teachings on wives submitting to their husbands, and on this basis decided not to marry? (For anyone unfamiliar I am referencing the passage of Ephesians 5:22-23 and sections 26-29 of Casti Connubii. ) If so, was your reaction short lived, or sustaining? If you changed your mind, what motivated the change?

I will add that I am aware the Church teaches husbands are to love their wives, and I do not believe this makes the idea of wives obeying their husbands in “everything” unsinful, “right reasoned”, and “dignified” they choose to decree, a fantastic concept. The idea men should always have the right to make final decisions about anything the spouses disagree on according to Church law, regardless of which person has done more research, is more greatly or personally affected, is more trained on the topic at hand, etc. seems a clear example of sexism. This idea seems undignified and wrong reasoned in itself, which calls into question the actual meaning/interpretation of Casti Connubii passage 27.

Some food for thought would be that the Church teaches everything Christ did/will do for the Church is loving, including his judgments, commands, and punishments, so why do people hear this passage in Ephesians, and automatically interpret “loving wives as Christ loved the Church” to exclude judgments, commands, and punishments? After all, we have verses like Hebrews 12:6 that have troubling implications for the idea wives should submit to husbands as the Church submits to Christ. Furthermore, not every husband is loving, and not every good husband is loving in every instance. Obligation to submit to an unloving husband is even more troubling. For those who would say wives need not submit unless husbands are holding up their end of the bargain, on what grounds? That’s not how we interpret other Christian laws. Early Christians weren’t exempt from refusing to worship false gods, if their government wrongly threatened to torture them. Women aren’t exempt from the abortion ban because a man sexually assaulted them. Parents aren’t exempt from attacking their children in anger because their children fail to obey them. Etc. etc. Generally Christian law says we must do God’s will, even if those around us fail to do so. And there is an awful lot an unloving husband could command of his wife that arguably isn’t explicitly sinful, wrong reasoned or undignified.
 
In theory, I was uncomfortable with the notion that I had to be submissive in marriage. In practice, a situation has literally never presented itself where I had to be. Myself and my husband just discuss things and choose a course of action. Partners. No need for one to overrule the other - we are both capable of conceding when the other person is right.

So my answer is that, if you find a man compatible with your personality type, I strongly suspect that this will be a non issue in practice.
 
Cynthia981 said:
I have a question for members here regarding whether any of you have had the experience of hearing the Church’s teachings on wives submitting to their husbands, and on this basis decided not to marry?
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I was aware of Ephesians 5:22-23 before marriage. I didn’t pay it much attention to be honest. Wasn’t aware of Casti Connubii, especially since the Internet wasn’t around yet in my courting days.

My husband wasn’t interested in being the boss in our relationship and he knew I wasn’t interested in being bossed around. I know before our wedding (which took place after we’d known each other about 10 years) we had some talks in which I expressed that I hoped the wedding vows weren’t going to say “love, honor and obey” (they didn’t say that) and that I hoped after we were married he wasn’t going to be demanding spousal privilege every time he felt like having sex (he wasn’t that way and it wasn’t a problem). I cannot remember a single time my husband issued a “judgment, command or punishment” on me and if he had, it likely would have fallen on deaf ears and the same for any Irish Catholic woman in my mother’s whole family and they all had long and mostly happy marriages.

Just find yourself a good man who approaches marriage as an equal partnership, and this stuff will never come up, just like it never came up for me in 23 years of married life. Get to know the guy real well first. Many men simply don’t act this way regardless of what Ephesians says. I will refrain from saying anything here about men who do act that way except to say that I could not have been married to such a man and I doubt such a man would have been interested in marrying me.
 
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Cynthia981 said:
I have a question for members here regarding whether any of you have had the experience of hearing the Church’s teachings on wives submitting to their husbands, and on this basis decided not to marry?
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There are, literally, thousands of posts here about this topic.

It seems to me you don’t understand what the Church teaches or you wouldn’t be asking this question.

The answer is “no”, because the Church’s teaching on marriage is beautiful.
Cynthia981 said:
For anyone unfamiliar I am referencing the passage of Ephesians 5:22-23 and sections 26-29 of Casti Connubii
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What problem do you have with this?
Cynthia981 said:
The idea men should always have the right to make final decisions about anything the spouses disagree on according to Church law, regardless of which person has done more research, is more greatly or personally affected, is more trained on the topic at hand, etc. seems a clear example of sexism.
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Well, since the Church doesn’t teach that… seems like you are fine.
Cynthia981 said:
Some food for thought would be that the Church teaches everything Christ did/will do for the Church is loving, including his judgments, commands, and punishments, so why do people hear this passage in Ephesians, and automatically interpret “loving wives as Christ loved the Church” to exclude judgments, commands, and punishments?
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Oh sweet baby Jesus you are confused.
 
I think it might be more helpful to explain to the person in a little more detail how she is confused.

If I wasn’t very familiar with both the Catholic Church and with a lot of good, equality-based marriages within the Catholic Church where the man wasn’t walking around like the commander-in-chief, and was just picking up this stuff and reading it, I would be alarmed too.

Someone telling me I was confused, that the Church’s teaching is “beautiful” and seeming to use the Lord’s name in vain (perhaps it was meant in a prayerful way?) would not do anything to make me feel better about it.

Not everybody’s a big marriage expert - it may be necessary to “explain like they’re 5” on some of these things.
 
This verse speaks of the end of time when the sheep (the Church) and the goats (those who have rejected Christ) are separated and those who rejected Christ and his Church are sent to hell.

This is not punishment to the Church, but, eternal punishment for the apostates.


41* j Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

ETA

The moneychangers were not the Church either.
 
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I disagree that every goat is a person outside the Church. Jesus teaches the path is narrow and plenty of mystics in the Church have spoken about baptized people entering into hell. Surely there are many Catholics and Baptized Christians among the goats. The same can be said of our immediate judgments after death.
 
Of course, baptized people can reject Christ and become apostates. At that point, they have separated themselves from the Church in all but the indellible mark of baptism.

The “acursed” are not the Spotless Bride of Christ.
 
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TheLittleLady said:
The moneychangers were not the Church either.
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There were Jews among the moneychangers, and Judaism was the religion of God at that age. They were sinners, but still Jews.

Also, there are innumerable instances in the Old Testament when God sent punishments upon the Israelites, and the Church teaches Jesus is a person of the Triune God.
 
TheLittleLady said:
Of course, baptized people can reject Christ and become apostates. At that point, they have separated themselves from the Church in all but the indellible mark of baptism.

The “acursed” are not the Spotless Bride of Christ.
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Being in mortal sin does not throw you out of the Church. It separates you from God and makes you eligible to go to Hell, but you are Catholic arguably until you stop trying or profess another faith/lack of faith. So I still think some of the goats were members of the Church.
 
Yes, Old Testament.

That was not the Church.
Cynthia981 said:
So I still think some of the goats were members of the Church.
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Yes, but they have chosen to be separated from the Church. They are part of the Bride who left their Spouse and went off with another.
 
There is also Revelation. While it’s widely debated exactly the correct interpretation, most everyone agrees it describes that Christ will bring punishment down upon the Earth for our sins, and the Church will not be spared.
 
Honestly though I think Hebrews is the strongest support that God sometimes punishes those in the Church. Besides private accounts of mystics receiving the stigmata and so forth.

https://biblehub.com/hebrews/12-6.htm

“For whom the Lord loveth, he chastiseth; and he scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.”
 
TheLittleLady said:
They are part of the Bride who left their Spouse and went off with another.
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And presumably someone who argues husbands have Biblical authority to punish their wives would say husbands may do so under comparable circumstances.
 
One would need to provide proof.

ETA, and I am guessing if I decided to leave my spouse for another, and he came to punish me or it, the cops would step in.
 
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I would suggest you do some more intensive studying about Ephesians 5. Fr. John Riccardo has a very good talk available via podcast on this subject. It was the subject of his thesis and he explains in quite well.

I agree with 1ke that the Church’s teaching on marriage is beautiful and I would add that more people need to be educated about what the church really teaches rather than what they think the church teaches.
 
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