How do atheists explain Eucharistic Miracles

  • Thread starter Thread starter christismylord
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Really, I think you are arguing for the sake of it. No reasonable person could fail to understand the difference between an extraordinary claim and a run-of-the-mill one.
So, what exactly is that difference? 🙂

Or do you want to claim that you just notice, without knowing how you do that?

For that runs into several problems.

First, then it becomes hard to explain how you can know that my “translation” is wrong.

Second, then everything hangs on a thread of you having good judgement, being competent etc. And not merely in some single area, but in general. Justifying such claims is going to be hard even for people who have impressive verifiable achievements. It is going to be still harder for an anonymous Internet user.
 
I wonder if there is any episode in the history of Christianity where God allowed a miracle to be witnessed by atheists. St Augustine thought that is is just for God not to do anything for those who do not seek Him and I tend to agree with him. God does not owe us anything, especially atheists.
 
I wonder if there is any episode in the history of Christianity where God allowed a miracle to be witnessed by atheists. St Augustine thought that is is just for God not to do anything for those who do not seek Him and I tend to agree with him. God does not owe us anything, especially atheists.
If you believe in miracles, you would necessarily believe this has happened countless times. Do you suppose that everyone at Fatima was a believer (assuming you credit that as a miracle), or everyone that witnessed Jesus heal someone, and so on?

As to what God owes to His children, why would you assume God “owes” anything less to the atheist?
 
If you believe in miracles, you would necessarily believe this has happened countless times. Do you suppose that everyone at Fatima was a believer (assuming you credit that as a miracle), or everyone that witnessed Jesus heal someone, and so on?
Apparently not everyone was a witness when Jesus healed, remember the Pharisees asking him for a sign?
As to what God owes to His children, why would you assume God “owes” anything less to the atheist?
It is not my assumption, it is St Augustine’s. I simply tend to agree with him. Those who have already rejected God are outside his help, he says.
 
Wouldn’t it be easier to just provide the better summary, still keeping it in four words…? 🙂
Since there is no threshold for word counts in posts, no. Have fun with the other atheists, though.
 
Apparently not everyone was a witness when Jesus healed, remember the Pharisees asking him for a sign?
Yes, not every human on the planet saw His miracles. But there is no reason to think that every person who did see His miracles was a believer. In fact, isn’t there more reason to think the opposite?
It is not my assumption, it is St Augustine’s. I simply tend to agree with him. Those who have already rejected God are outside his help, he says.
Well, to the extent St Augustine said that, I think he was wrong. Certainly that is not what the Church teaches.
 
40.png
MPat:
So, what exactly is that difference? 🙂
Ordinary: this is a tree

Extraordinary: this tree has the power to cure cancer if the person with cancer sits under it.
Did you know that there is a plant in Australia that if you sit under it for as little as ten minutes it will kill you? They are called nymphaeaceae.

I wonder if Mpat thinks that could be an extraordinary claim.
 
Those who have already rejected God are outside his help, he says.
This is a nice Catch22. I’m told that anyone who seeks God, He will give them faith. But, I have to already have faith or God won’t give me any. No wonder I gave up. Since I had lost my faith and was desperately trying to regain it, I was already a lost cause.
 
And, of course, “extraordinary claims” are “claims I do not like”, while “extraordinary evidence” is “any evidence that is not available”.
I do believe I continued on to say that it relates to the degree a claim varies from our normal understanding of the world. That isn’t some special definition, an extraordinary athlete is one whose skill deviates heavily from the expected range of ability.
And they were challenged on this point so many times, that if it was possible to think of something sounding more reasonable, someone would have thought of that, and the rest would have copied that explanation.
Well you ignored what I said about it and then claimed there’s no answer to I will too be skeptical of your claims that it’s not possible to craft a better explanation.
Showing such fake “respect” would be almost suicidal.
Try actual respect instead of fake respect then.
St Augustine thought that is is just for God not to do anything for those who do not seek Him and I tend to agree with him. God does not owe us anything, especially atheists.
Lots of atheists became so after growing up in faith, seeking God, and not finding sufficient reason to continue believing.
 
This is a nice Catch22. I’m told that anyone who seeks God, He will give them faith. But, I have to already have faith or God won’t give me any. No wonder I gave up. Since I had lost my faith and was desperately trying to regain it, I was already a lost cause.
I do believe that anyone who sincerely seeks God in humility and with an open heart will find Him. I cannot comment on your specific case because I don’t know your interior life, that is between you and God.
 
Does God ignore those that don’t believe in Him but are sincerely asking? Or, must you believe God exists before even asking? I know many atheists that as they lost faith/belief in God desperately tried to regain their faith…and failed to regain it. I’m pretty comfortable saying that this has happened to most atheists that were previously believers. Yet, I’m constantly told that if you sincerely ask, faith will be given. Are some of them not sincere? Maybe but not all of them including me. I still like the idea that there is a God but I have no belief that it’s true.

Anyone who thinks it easy to lose your faith, especially when it was so strong at one point, is mistaken. I’ve heard some pretty heart wrenching stories to verify how tormenting and difficult it is. It’s often not even triggered by anything specific. Before losing their faith, the later problems weren’t problems at all…until one day they are. I still have no answer to why I lost my faith but I spent years trying to regain it and failed. I honestly wonder if there is just some skeptical gene that wakes up in some people’s brain that causes it! Some people manage to turn it back off or they just fake it till they make it? I couldn’t.
 
Last edited:
A God you have to prove, cannot be proven.
A God you already believe in , does not need proof.
Yep, exactly! Like I said, it’s a Catch22! The good news is that I don’t believe in Hell, either. Otherwise, it would be extremely unfair.
 
Since there is no threshold for word counts in posts, no.
There is a character limit.

But thank you for implicitly acknowledging that the summary I gave was fair - that it is not so easy to make a better one that would be just as short. 🙂
Ordinary: this is a tree

Extraordinary: this tree has the power to cure cancer if the person with cancer sits under it.
Did you know that there is a plant in Australia that if you sit under it for as little as ten minutes it will kill you? They are called nymphaeaceae.

I wonder if Mpat thinks that could be an extraordinary claim.
So, you can give examples, but can’t explain how you know which is “ordinary” and which is “extraordinary”.

Yes, you just like one claim more than another.

That also illustrates how adopting such a principle as an excuse to avoid actually reasoning about things is bad for you.

After all, all of you wanted to argue in favour of it.

And the result was pathetic.

You managed to offer examples but could not offer any way to give any other, “competing”, explanation of what is an “extraordinary claim” or “extraordinary evidence”.

Which plays right into my hands, for I have predicted:
And let’s face it: the ones who like that saying do not have any competing explanation of difference between “ordinary” and “extraordinary” ready.
Another thing you tried was to shame me into agreeing with you. Nope, didn’t work. 🙂

Third thing you tried was to claim (or, perhaps more precisely, to insinuate) that I also apply the same principle. The try failed instantly, for you couldn’t provide a single example of me doing so, or even appearing to do so.

Now, of course, it was not that hard to support your principle with sophistry that would take at least some effort to respond.

For example:
I do believe I continued on to say that it relates to the degree a claim varies from our normal understanding of the world.
But is is easy to see that is just another way of saying one does not like the claim.
Try actual respect instead of fake respect then.
As far as I know, no swear words have been addressed to you.

If you want additional respect, deserve it. if you want respect due to the ones who are already known to be honest, get known as someone who is honest.
 
I do believe I continued on to say that it relates to the degree a claim varies from our normal understanding of the world.
But is is easy to see that is just another way of saying one does not like the claim
No it isn’t. It is straightforward, honest, and comprehensible.

We experience the world every day, and form a mental pattern of the way it behaves and how we can expect it to continue to behave. Occasionally we meet events or phenomena which do not fit that pattern.

That, of course, doesn’t mean they are unbelievable, merely that they do not fit the pattern we have come to expect. We need a reason why that should be so, some evidence that will allow us to fit them into our worldview.

Why do you find that difficult to accept? If they are extraordinary, we need some extraordinary evidence that will allow us to fit them into our understanding.
 
Last edited:
But thank you for implicitly acknowledging that the summary I gave was fair
Your repeated attempts to deliberately misrepresent the meaning of my post - when I have clearly told you your interpretation of my message and motive is wrong - borders on contempt. I will tell you again. Your summary is not correct. I did not say “I am not interested.” You did. And if you keep lying about what I said, you will be reported.

Have an enjoyable and civil chat.
 
We experience the world every day, and form a mental pattern of the way it behaves and how we can expect it to continue to behave. Occasionally we meet events or phenomena which do not fit that pattern.

That, of course, doesn’t mean they are unbelievable, merely that they do not fit the pattern we have come to expect. We need a reason why that should be so, some evidence that will allow us to fit them into our worldview.
Or, in other words, you do not like them. 🙂

For that just is an explanation why you do not like those claims.

Or do you imagine you are going to like claims that do not fit your beliefs?

If you want to show that liking a claim as such does not play any part, you have to show what happens when claim is liked with evidence playing less of a part.

You did not offer any such example. So, let’s look at an example I see:
You have no other choice really. When someone is making a claim about their own thoughts, believing them is simply a sign of respect.
First, let’s note that he did not point to any evidence that people in general (or he in particular) never lie about their thoughts or motives, and are never mistaken about them.

In fact, one could collect overwhelming evidence against this claim using just fictional detective stories alone (with addition of “art imitates life”). 🙂

Second, the mention of “respect” shows that he really likes the claim that people in general (or he in particular) never lie about their thoughts or motives, and are never mistaken about them.

So, does he treat this claim as “ordinary” or “extraordinary”?

If he treated this claim as “extraordinary”, he would have had either to present some evidence (and to claim it is “extraordinary”), or to admit that I am withing my rights in rejecting that claim.

But he did neither thing.

And that’s one simple way in which we see that, for people who use this principle, “an ordinary claim” is “a claim I like”.

Now, of course, you could say that in this case the principle was forgotten, misapplied, abused. That, had it been applied properly, “an ordinary claim” would have been “a claim strongly supported by old evidence”.

But then this principle becomes something like “Don’t ignore old evidence when looking at new one.”. A much better advice, but not the one that would help you to justify laziness. It would mean that you still have to look at all evidence, investigate. You would not be able to just keep your beliefs in face of overwhelming evidence, after dismissing it as “not extraordinary”.

An alternative is to say that “an ordinary claim” is “a claim that fits old beliefs”. But then it becomes a bit too obvious that such principle is just a cover for closed-mindedness. Which is inconvenient, given that atheists like to claim that they are very open-minded.

Feel free to look for still other interpretation. 🙂
 
Last edited:
40.png
Freddy:
Did you know that there is a plant in Australia that if you sit under it for as little as ten minutes it will kill you? They are called nymphaeaceae.
I wonder if Mpat thinks that could be an extraordinary claim.
So, you can give examples, but can’t explain how you know which is “ordinary” and which is “extraordinary”.
Come on. Freddy’s joke was great. At least have a chuckle or look up the plant under which you die if you sit beneath it for ten minutes 😀
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top