How do atheists get around determinism?

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There are some basic things that most atheists believe (and actually most believers agree with them too, but we will ignore that fact for the moment šŸ˜› )
  1. The world is rational, and everything can be sufficiently explained.
  2. Everything has a knowable cause.
  3. Nothing can go against the laws of nature and thus everything acts according to those laws
So if everything is a ratonal and knowable effect from the cause, and everything has a cause…isn’t that determinism? Think about it this way. After the big bang, all matter started obeying the laws of nature, which most people believe are real and unbreakable for the most part. So all that matter could only react in a certain way, which is according to those laws. The matter just keeps going step by step doing exactly what the laws force them to do. That is determinism.

Ironically another thing most everyone believes is
  1. We have free will
I’m sorry but you cannot get to 4 if you believe in 1, 2, 3, without putting God in the mix (though even that isn’t exactly a very good answer)
 
If you define ā€œfree-willā€ as being free from reality yet being able to make a choice within reality, then yes, you are right. But ā€˜in reality’, that is not what ā€œfree-willā€ means.

Free-will merely means that a person is not impeded from accomplishing a chosen task. He is free to exercise his will.

Freedom from reality such as to be able to make a decision without cause is an absurdity that dismisses all logic and reasoning.

You get around determinism by accepting that not everything (God for example) really has to have a cause (or anything else you can slip by your opponent). It’s just a game to keep you out of politics and the street. šŸ˜‰
 
There are some basic things that most atheists believe (and actually most believers agree with them too, but we will ignore that fact for the moment šŸ˜› )
  1. The world is rational, and everything can be sufficiently explained.
  2. Everything has a knowable cause.
  3. Nothing can go against the laws of nature and thus everything acts according to those laws
I’m an atheist, and I don’t believe any of those things. I doubt too many others do, either.

I also don’t believe in libertarian free will. We do largely if not exclusively what we are programmed (by evolution, society, parents, churches, etc.) to do.
 
There are some basic things that most atheists believe (and actually most believers agree with them too, but we will ignore that fact for the moment šŸ˜› )
  1. The world is rational, and everything can be sufficiently explained.
  2. Everything has a knowable cause.
  3. Nothing can go against the laws of nature and thus everything acts according to those laws
So if everything is a ratonal and knowable effect from the cause, and everything has a cause…isn’t that determinism?
Yep.
Ironically another thing most everyone believes is
  1. We have free will
I’m sorry but you cannot get to 4 if you believe in 1, 2, 3, without putting God in the mix (though even that isn’t exactly a very good answer)
You can’t get to 4 even if you do put God in the mix. Everything God does would have a cause, which would have to be acting according to His nature, since by definition nothing else can cause God to act.

Unless one posits a bizarre definition of ā€œfree willā€ in which it is logically impossible for you to do otherwise than you did, but you did it ā€œfreelyā€ anyway.
 
There are some basic things that most atheists believe (and actually most believers agree with them too, but we will ignore that fact for the moment šŸ˜› )
  1. The world is rational, and everything can be sufficiently explained.
  2. Everything has a knowable cause.
  3. Nothing can go against the laws of nature and thus everything acts according to those laws.
If you are advocating metaphysical reasoning, you should be aware that a lot of people think that physical science has replaced metaphysics as a way of understanding the universe.

If you are claiming that your conclusion follows from the Standard Model in physics, you should be aware that physicists can’t even use the Standard Model to predict which atomic nuclei are stable and which are not. So any claim you make about human behavior from the Standard Model is highly suspect.
 
There are some basic things that most atheists believe (and actually most believers agree with them too, but we will ignore that fact for the moment šŸ˜› )
  1. The world is rational, and everything can be sufficiently explained.
  2. Everything has a knowable cause.
  3. Nothing can go against the laws of nature and thus everything acts according to those laws
I’m not an athiest, but I don’t believe those statements.

Genocide goes against nature. No other species but man practices it. It can also be explained as irrational behavior. Thus you have irrationality in a world that is proposed as always rational, even though an explanation for it is offered.

If someone else expresses the sentiment that they love you, it may not be a knowable cause, even by the person expressing it. The love is real, the cause isn’t always known.

Nature seeks to overcome my tomato plants with weeds. Twice I week I go against the laws of nature by pulling them out and forcing the continued life of plants that otherwise would not survive. Mutations in living beings do not always follow laws; they are unpredictable events that force a sometimes unnatural upon the natural.
 
There are some basic things that most atheists believe (and actually most believers agree with them too, but we will ignore that fact for the moment šŸ˜› )
  1. The world is rational, and everything can be sufficiently explained.
  2. Everything has a knowable cause.
  3. Nothing can go against the laws of nature and thus everything acts according to those laws
  1. The world is rational, but the universe might not be. Some things might never be sufficiently explained, but instead of worrying about that I would propose we simply seek to understand everything we can.
  2. That’s preposterous.
  3. While I think that’s technically true, the laws of nature adjust from one place to another (even time) so it’s more complicated than your sentence seems to presume.
 
I tend to trust scientific results fairly often, yes.
Science is entirely dependent upon ā€œcause and effectā€ consistency - determinism - (1) The world is rational, and everything can be sufficiently explained (2) Everything has a knowable cause (3) Nothing can go against the laws of nature and thus everything acts according to those laws.

:o
 
I don’t think the original post gives a very good definition of determinism, but it does raise a good question. A proposed revised definition of determinism:

Determinism: the theory that every event is reducible to its causes.

Quantum mechanics is claimed to defy determinism, but there are two problems with this claim: 1) Our inability to determine a cause does not enable us to say that there **is **no cause (indeterminism), and 2) Quantum indeterminism would not explain free will. Free will actions are not claimed to be uncaused; they are just claimed to be caused by the agent.

Determinism shouldn’t create much of a problem for Catholics, because Catholic theology posits that we are – through our free will – co-creators of the universe with God. We are given dominion over our decisions, by His ordaining, from the beginning of time.

I do think determinism creates problems for atheists who want to claim free will.
 
There are some basic things that most atheists believe (and actually most believers agree with them too, but we will ignore that fact for the moment šŸ˜› )
  1. The world is rational, and everything can be sufficiently explained.
  2. Everything has a knowable cause.
  3. Nothing can go against the laws of nature and thus everything acts according to those laws
So if everything is a ratonal and knowable effect from the cause, and everything has a cause…isn’t that determinism? Think about it this way. After the big bang, all matter started obeying the laws of nature, which most people believe are real and unbreakable for the most part. So all that matter could only react in a certain way, which is according to those laws. The matter just keeps going step by step doing exactly what the laws force them to do. That is determinism.

Ironically another thing most everyone believes is
  1. We have free will
I’m sorry but you cannot get to 4 if you believe in 1, 2, 3, without putting God in the mix (though even that isn’t exactly a very good answer)
you are most astute. the first thing you are talking about here is the PSR, or Principle of Sufficient Reason. if everything must have a sufficient reason for its existence then the atheist cannot stop at the mere physical universe as being necessary. the upshot is that the scientific method relies upon the PSR. after all the very notion that everything happens for a reason is practiced in scientific endeavors everyday. science is impossible without the PSR. an atheist denying the PSR will be laughed out of scientific circles. there are some who would like to vary the PSR into strong , weak, etc, etc, positions. however, there is no evidence that the PSR should be divided as such. either there is a sufficient reason something occurs and it does, or there is not sufficient reason for something to occur and it does not. that position is directly descended from attempts to avoid the PSR for the purposes of denying various proofs of G-d. however, as it also denies science in general, therefore becoming a self defeating proposition for athiests.

the second thing you mention, free will, in this course of discussion, is called metaphysical libertarianism. a deterministic universe and free will should be incompatible it can only be explained by a G-d. a postion i take in the thread, ā€œwarpspeedpeteys’ proofā€ i encourage you too give it a look, because its time now for Mass.😃
 
the upshot is that the scientific method relies upon the PSR. after all the very notion that everything happens for a reason is practiced in scientific endeavors everyday. science is impossible without the PSR. an atheist denying the PSR will be laughed out of scientific circles.
The scientific method does not rely on the principle of sufficient reason. The PSR is a attempted generalization of certain principles which are indeed used by science, but the PSR is not itself used by science.

The question then becomes whether or not the PSR is an appropriate generalization. In my judgment, it is not. If we believe Quentin Smith, indeed it ā€œhas very few contemporary defenders of any of its versionsā€ (1995, ā€œA Defense of the Principle of Sufficient Reason,ā€ Metaphilosophy, v26,n1,2, p97.).
there are some who would like to vary the PSR into strong , weak, etc, etc, positions. however, there is no evidence that the PSR should be divided as such.
We do not need evidence to simply formulate hypotheses. We only need evidence (with exceptions) to conclude whether or not those hypotheses are true.

As it happens, we do not have enough evidence to conclude that any version of the PSR is true, which is why I do not accept the PSR.
 
The scientific method does not rely on the principle of sufficient reason. The PSR is a attempted generalization of certain principles which are indeed used by science, but the PSR is not itself used by science.
the PSR is indeed the very basis of the scientific method, the idea that for any effect there must be a cause is the entire point of experimentation and hypothesis. in fact i would like to see any science that is practiced without it! i dont suppose you can name one physical science that doesnt use the PSR? from theoretical physics to ditch digging. nothing happens without the PSR.
The question then becomes whether or not the PSR is an appropriate generalization. In my judgment, it is not. If we believe Quentin Smith, indeed it ā€œhas very few contemporary defenders of any of its versionsā€ (1995, ā€œA Defense of the Principle of Sufficient Reason,ā€ Metaphilosophy, v26,n1,2, p97.).
and in your judgement, why is it not? simply qouting Smiths idea of others opinion doesnt tell me anything other than Smith thinks there are few defenders. thats in the very first line of the abstract. surely you read more than that. so what is your reasoning that the PSR is wrong? and where is your evidence? surely you can think of at least one thing that happens without a cause?
We do not need evidence to simply formulate hypotheses. We only need evidence (with exceptions) to conclude whether or not those hypotheses are true.
then how do you formulate a hypothesis without evidence? i dont think you can, even abstract hypothesis require some grounding in reality.
As it happens, we do not have enough evidence to conclude that any version of the PSR is true, which is why I do not accept the PSR.
indeed we have trillions of tests per second of the PSR, every single movement of every particle in the universe obeys the PSR. if you wish to hold the ludicrous position that the PSR is false then surely you have some evidence? where is there a single thing that happens without a sufficient reason?
 
how about we subtract the word ā€œknowableā€? would that help?
Not really. There are quantum mechnaical phenomena that violate Bell’s inequation, meaning the natural laws decribing those phenomena have no hidden parameters.
further, how do you think this indicates that free will is compatible with determinism. someone made that argument last year, but i dont remember what thread.
Could you notice the difference between a ā€œfreeā€ and a determined choice? Keeping in mind that your state of mind thinking it chose something freely is as determined as the rest of the universe.
Besides. no choice is really free of anything. You cannot choose to violate physical laws, your choices always depend on your experiences in the past, it depends on the current situation. So what is so free abouzt a choice we make?
 
the PSR is indeed the very basis of the scientific method, the idea that for any effect there must be a cause is the entire point of experimentation and hypothesis. in fact i would like to see any science that is practiced without it! i dont suppose you can name one physical science that doesnt use the PSR? from theoretical physics to ditch digging. nothing happens without the PSR.
Every single science is practiced independent of the PSR, which is a philosophical hypothesis. I wonder if most scientists have even heard of the PSR!

Perhaps you are confusing falsity of the PSR with complete and utter chaos. But please remember that just because most things in our experience have potential explanations doesn’t mean there are absolutely no exceptions.
and in your judgement, why is it not? simply qouting Smiths idea of others opinion doesnt tell me anything other than Smith thinks there are few defenders. thats in the very first line of the abstract. surely you read more than that. so what is your reasoning that the PSR is wrong? and where is your evidence? surely you can think of at least one thing that happens without a cause?
As I said, I do not believe it is an appropriate generalization since we have insufficient evidence to conclude that every last real proposition, without exception, has a potential, coherent explanation.
then how do you formulate a hypothesis without evidence? i dont think you can, even abstract hypothesis require some grounding in reality.
Fermat’s last theorem was a hypothesis lacking any evidence–until it was proved, of course.
indeed we have trillions of tests per second of the PSR, every single movement of every particle in the universe obeys the PSR. if you wish to hold the ludicrous position that the PSR is false then surely you have some evidence? where is there a single thing that happens without a sufficient reason?
See above.
 
Not really. There are quantum mechnaical phenomena that violate Bell’s inequation, meaning the natural laws decribing those phenomena have no hidden parameters.
i assume you mean that bell can exclude local hidden variables. thats fine, but the key word here is local. quantum entanglement seems to dispense with that notion, contravening determinism. yet there is an even better answer to the idea of indeterminism on a quantum level, that being that QM is dependent on the existence of the universe. a contingent relationship necessitates a deterministic relationship, hidden variables or no. so while we may not know the specific variables involved, giving rise to the statistical nature of QM, there are indeed deterministic rules by which they function.

simply put, no universe, no QM. proof of causal determinism. (thats why i like this answer better)
Could you notice the difference between a ā€œfreeā€ and a determined choice? Keeping in mind that your state of mind thinking it chose something freely is as determined as the rest of the universe.
Besides. no choice is really free of anything. You cannot choose to violate physical laws, your choices always depend on your experiences in the past, it depends on the current situation. So what is so free abouzt a choice we make?
lets look at what it means if you are correct and we do not have free will in a deterministic universe. we make seemingly free willed decisions everyday, billions of people making trillions of data points, and everytime we test free will, it seems that we have it.

the problem of determinism masquerading as free will are those empirically observed trillions of data points everyday, for tens of thousands of years. if we can determine the beginning state of a closed system we can predict the state of that system anywhere along its developement. if free will is deterministic that means that the start of the universe was randomly formed in such a way as to perfectly fake all those data points. for no reason at all other than pure chance. such an arrangement though, if true, would smack of design rather than random chance. after all what would be the odds of every particle in the universe being arranged in such a way as to give us a near perfect illusion of free will, by chance? so it seems much more reasonable to me and by occams razor it is more economical to believe that we just have actual free will. even though this contradicts the determinant nature of the universe.

you may say that free will comes from quantum indeterminancy, but as above, causal determinism in matters of QM is easily proven from its contingent relationship with the universe. and if true, then where is the evidence, surely free will shouldnt be the only phenomenon associated with quantum indeterminism?
 
Every single science is practiced independent of the PSR, which is a philosophical hypothesis. I wonder if most scientists have even heard of the PSR!
no science is practiced independently of the PSR. name a single physical science that doesnt rely on the PSR as its very foundation. every scientist expects, and rightly so, that there is an cause for the effect that he has observed.

it is literally the basis for the scientific method.
Perhaps you are confusing falsity of the PSR with complete and utter chaos. But please remember that just because most things in our experience have potential explanations doesn’t mean there are absolutely no exceptions.
no, im not confusing it with chaos, im saying that an effect without a cause is impossible!

**no effect is possible without existence, otherwise the effect wouldnt exist. the ultimate cause of any effect is existence itself. no matter the steps between the bare fact of existence, and any particular effect, we can be assured that each and every effect has a cause. **

if your a little light on philosophy, then there is this rejection.

the PSR is tested an untold number of times and always found to be true, what more proof do you need? it is more rock solid than any of the laws of physics. we know it in ways more intimate and familiar than any of the physical laws, that you surely do not deny.

i propose that if you deny the PSR, you deny the ability to know anything, as there ā€œmay beā€ an exception to any laws at all. but some how i doubt your level of skepticism rises to such things as denying gravity, max light speed, the laws of conservation of mass, energy, momentum. etc.

if you reject the PSR on the basis of a lack of evidence, then you necessarioly deny the ability to actually know anything at all.
As I said, I do not believe it is an appropriate generalization since we have insufficient evidence to conclude that every last real proposition, without exception, has a potential, coherent explanation.
see above.
Fermat’s last theorem was a hypothesis lacking any evidence–until it was proved, of course.
and what of fermats evidence? number theory was the basis in reality of his theorum. number theory is ultimately based on integers we see correspond to physical objects.

thats not a theory based on no evidence. there is no such thing. how does one theorize from nothing? i think maybe we are talking past eachother on this part. we may be having different ideas of language here, surely you dont think hypothesis are real objects floating about somewhere?
 
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