I thought I answered this . In order to be retored to grace, you must believe, repent, and then confess.
That passage specifically refers to the grievous sin of apostasy. But Scripture teaches that we can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
Good job, Quent. I like what you have written here. You’ve said it well what we have been bantering back and forth.
Actually, you just said the same thing when you said “the cooperation we give God in doing his works (any charitable work of man done under the influence of grace is really God’s work)”.
Our good works are evidence of God’s work in us. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about faith and works:
“Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” “So then, faith comes by hearing God’s Word.”
Repentance is the inward condition of man who determines to reorder his life to coincide with what God expects of him, and this produces a real change from the heart.
Yes, I agree with that.
Do fully you agree with the following Refomed explanation of this part of the Westminster Confession by Robert Shaw:
Good point. But I would counter that Protestants can (and do) also base their claim of authority on historical continuance of the Universal Church.
Moses wasn’t long up on the mountain before the children of Israel “forgot” the God which saved them, and brought them out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage, and crafted a god out of gold.
There is a succession of Christians which connect ANY church with Christ.
Any Christian can trace their roots back to the apostles.
Yes, any denomination has an official founding date, but Christianity doesn’t. Catholicism has a founding date that ante-dates Christ and the apostles, but I don’t think you’re willing to hear all that.
All churches and denominations belong to the Universal Church. Even the Catholic Church. Christ did not exclude anyone.
Exactly.
No, of course not. I’m talking about those doctrines which are not essential to salvation, but are necessary for proper worship and living out your faith.
Yes, any denomination has an official founding date, but Christianity doesn’t. Catholicism has a founding date that ante-dates Christ and the apostles, but I don’t think you’re willing to hear all that.
Since Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, you may have a point there. I never though of it that way. True, but we should also avoid semantics. Obviously, the Incarnation marks a “new” phase, as does Pentecost (the Birthday of the Church), so obviously there is a starting date in a true sense for Christianity and “Christians” (cf Acts 11:26B).
God Bless,
Michael
I suggest reading Catholic commentaries rather than Calvinist ones.
Then how could the Church have gotten this fundamental issue wrong immediately following the death of the apostles until the protestant revolt? How could the Church be in a constant state of error for the majority of her history pertaining to this most fundamental aspect of salvation?
I would say that’s a huge weakness not a strength to one day believe that one thing is true and then the next be convinced otherwise because you are presented with a more convincing argument from Scripture. You can never really know if your interpretation is correct. You are constantly searching for the correct interpretation but will never be able to achieve it because the highest authority you can appeal to is your own private interpretation.
Someone can claim to be “Catholic” and not really obey or believe the teachings of the Church. They are Catholic in name and Catholic by their baptism, but they are not actually a part of the Church but have separated themselves by there heresies and apostasies.
We very well could be disagreeing on what is “fundamental.” If you study the fundamentals of the many thousands of protestant denominations, you will see how incredibly they differ. Furthermore, just like yourself, each individual denomination’s church consists of individuals interpreting Scripture on their own and often disagreeing with their denomination on many different issues as well, just as you don’t agree with everything from your baptist church you now attend. The answer I hear is that there is no perfect church out there that will teach everything that agrees with what you believe. That’s absolutely true from a protestant perspective, which interprets Scripture independently. Unless you are following your pastor or priest or elder or whoever, then you are likely just interpreting things as you see fit. The difference between the millions of individuals making up their own separate belief systems basing them on the same Scriptures compared with the true members of the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic Church is that we do not base our beliefs on what we personally want to be true. We follow the Church’s teachings and her constant practices that have been going on for 2000 years. The same Church that has from the beginning taught that you can fall from grace through committing grave sin and that you must persevere until the end to be saved as Christ himself taught.
First, notice you said “nearly” all, because again there is no complete agreement on these issues because in the protestant system–well i guess depending on who you ask–there is no final say as to what is the correct interpretation of Scripture other than the individual believer who comes to his own conclusions on everything. Second, these teachings that you mention that “nearly all Christians” accept sound incredibly similar to the apostle’s creed do they not? You do realize that the early creeds were designed to be exactly that but even more. They were professions of what not just some or most but all true Christians believed who were a part of the universal Church. The apostles and Nicene Creeds are most certainly fundamental issues, but of course you would have to disagree or interpret them quite differently than what they say and what the fathers meant by the different terms such as “one baptism for the remission of sins” and the “communion of saints” etc.
Actually it depends on which pentecostal or which baptist you ask. There is no agreement on these issues in those churches. There are many Pentecostals believe that you must be baptized to be saved; there are many who believe you do not. There are many who believe that you must speak in tongues to be saved; and there are many who just say that if you don’t then you’re really missing out.
Actually you earlier stated that if no Christians believed what you did then there would be a problem. You never answered the fact to my knowledge that before AD 1500 or so you could not find those supporting your sola fide claims at all. You cannot find Church fathers etc who held to this view as protestants now do. They did believe, as Catholics do, that you are saved soley by a formed and living faith, which is working by charity. They also believed that you could fall from grace. Following Tradition is not following subjectivity; in fact, it’s quite the opposite. Following what you personally think or want to think to be true and then reading Scripture and seeing how those ideas can fit together is subjective. Starting with the faith that the entire Christian Church professes–which is also known as Tradition–is the most objective way to understand and interpret the teachings of Christ.
Catholic Tradition is the complete teaching of the Word of God, which is not only written but was also entrusted to the successors of the apostles orally and preserved through their liturgy and continued living out of that faith all over the world for 2000 years.
I do see it. But it is not the same as what you are referring to as “tradition” in the Catholic Church, or in the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Whenever you come to tradition which is based upon extra-Biblical foundations, then you are talking about the tradition which Protestants reject.
Very true. But their interpretations are based upon someone changing the Word of God to say something else, then interpreting this new “word” of God to mean something that neither Protestants or Catholics would accept.
These groups have all similarly used Scripture to base their differences upon. Pentecostals have interpreted Scripture to include speaking in tongues and other gifts as being applicable for today’s Christian. Speaking of which, there are Catholics which practice the same. But, according to you, these might be excommunicated because they don’t follow Catholic tradition.
Who’s throwing mud??? I said that “Using tradition as a means of interpretation is dangerous because you can essentially make the Bible say whatever it is that you want it to say.” I then noted that the Catholic Church had used that system by engaging in the crusades, and the inquisitions. If you “throw mud” by mentioning the Salem witch trials, that doesn’t change a thing regarding the crusades or the inquistions. You just ignored what I said, which is that using tradition as a means for interpretation and guidance leads to error.
I understand. To actually apologize for engaging in activities which are not sanctioned by Christ is not something that the Church has ever been wont to do. This is not mud-slinging, but simply driving a point home: the Catholic Church is just as subject to human foibles as ANY Christian Church. Churches make mistakes because they deviate from Christ’s commandments.
No, that’s an “I don’t know what God will do, but I do believe that the Judge of all the earth will do right.”
You interpret the Bible to support your contentions, and dissallow any interpretation which draws from other Biblical passages that do not support your contentions. Sounds very subjective to me.
Apostasy is exactly what you are describing when you say that someone falls from grace and must be restored by repentance and faith. What the Catholic Church teaches is the exact thing that Hebrews 6 speaks about. If the Catholic Church says that you can apostasize and then come back to grace, then the Catholic Church advocates putting Christ to an open shame.
I “belong” to Southern Baptist, but I am more truly a Reformed Baptist. There aren’t any Reformed Baptist churches in my area.Pepcis, what Baptist denomination do you belong to? Are you a Reformed Baptist?