How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[PEPCIS]

• verse 18b: nonbelievers are condemned because they did not believe in the Son’s name

Not quite. Non-believers are condemned because they are sinnners. They are not saved because they have not believed in the Son’s name. Everyone enters the world condemned in sin from Adam. It is only through propitiation of Christ’s work on the cross that man escapes this condemnation.

 

[PEPCIS]

I am glad that you awoke from the sleep of doing it your way… I too wonder about Luther… years ago I saw a take on the reform (pbs 13 NY); the program stated that Luther took refuge with some monarch and that the political and religious mêlée that ensued cost the lives of 300,000 people–I wonder if he began to realize how wrong he was and how dark was the cloud that he had released onto the world?

How typical of those who injure others, and then to blame the other for the damage that they themselves have caused.

 

[PEPCIS]

You are exalting a man that deconstructed the Sacred Writings and who called the Epistle of St. James an espistle of hay. . .

No, I am not “exalting” anyone. We are all men, and we make mistakes. That’s something that even the Pope does.

 

[PEPCIS]

So your understanding that faith without action is useless means that faith alone saves? Are you truly that delusional?

You don’t read for comprehension, do you?

 

[PEPCIS]

You truly must be reading a special version of Scriptures

I think I may just have to ignore you, because you don’t say ANYTHING. You post a bunch of Scriptures without comment, and then expect that they actually support your BELIEFS? Thanks for playing,here are some parting gifts…

 

[PrairieMom]

Okay, I admit I haven’t read the whole thread (yet)… I got to page five, and a thought occurred to me that I didn’t want to lose.

(I promise to read the rest. I find this most enlightening.)

(Just for some background information, I started out as Catholic, then was Pentecostal for many years, and returned to the Church about 6 years ago. So I’m somewhat versed on both sides of this debate.)

(And now for my actual point…)

I am reminded of a dear friend of mine. She’s Jewish. At one point in her life, her and her husband kept the Sabbath and I was privileged enough to witness the start of the Sabbath one Friday evening. I watched her as she made her preparations, such as filling the coffee urn with hot water (to be held for tea, etc during the next 24 hours), putting food in her oven which has been programmed in “Sabbath mode”, taping various light switches into their various designated on/off positions, including the one that turns on the light inside the fridge, and ensuring that there was an ample supply of pre-ripped toilet paper. Let me tell you, it was a lot of work getting ready for a day of rest!

Then I watched her, crouching precariously with her 9-month-pregnant belly hanging low, as she lit the candles at sundown and recited a prayer in Hebrew as ancient as the Jewish faith itself. That moment was powerful, and it made an impression on me that I will never easily forget.

And so I had to ask her, “Friend, now I know you’re very apathetic about this whole God thing. So why do you do all this?”

She answered that she was taught all her life that even if you didn’t believe, you were expected to do these things in hopes that some day you will believe. She understood that the work had little value without the faith that should accompany it, but she did it anyways in hope that it would instill the faith and love of God in her someday. *

As Jews, when Jesus and Paul et al talk about faith and works and their interrelationship, could they be thinking about same thing? Were they taught the same lessons at their mother’s knee? We look at what they say through Christian eyes, but what do the lessons of Jewishness tell us about these things?

Just a thought. You guys are all so smart! I’ve learned a lot reading this thread.

*Now, before someone gets all in a huff reminding me that modern Jews have things other than God to be concerned about, i.e. the transmission of cultural tranditions and continuation of a threatened way of life in the Diaspora, I have thought of that. When I enquired further, my sources tell me that this has been a common Jewish teaching for millenniums.

 

[Garland]

I offered one observation on this thread and I spoke as a former baptist. I know for sure that the anomosity I see in some of the answers is thick. I also know at least 100 other baptist,holliness, calvinists, mennonite, amish, and other protestant sects that would not agree with any thing put forth by these SAVED individuals. That is why God drew me to the truth of the Catholic faith. Jesus founded one church. He sweated blood and prayed ,that they be one as you and I are one, in the garden before his crufixicon. He gave us his body to eat and his blood to drink until he comes ,so that we might not grow weary and need revival. These simple truths are offered daily at the table of the Lord and he rejoices when one sheep is brought back to the fold. All protestants are only a few generations in their families away from Holy Mother Church, and when they come home there will be much rejoicing in heaven and on earth. A note to the dissenters in this thread, I will not answer any name calling and will only pray that you see the light and stop causing our Lord so much pain by your rejection of the only church that operates under the full authority of Allmighty GOD. I pray continually for unity in the body of Christ. His will, the will of his catholic church be done. Garland

 

[una_fides]

Please. It is more than abundantly clear that the Catholic church teaches that whether or not someone goes to heaven is based on whether or not that person dies in a state of grace. In other words, if that person is not producing good works to indicate his state of grace, and he dies without receiving the “last rites”, he will have died outside of grace.

I’m not sure how it is that Catholics can say with a straight face that they do not believe that you must work your way to get to heaven, and then out of the other side of their mouth claim that they do not believe that once you are saved, that you are always saved.

That’s playing with words. To claim that the Catholic Church does not teach that “a certain amount of good works” gets you into heaven is supposed to mean that Catholics don’t believe you have to work to get to heaven. That would be a blatant misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches, because even though the Catholic Church does not teach that “a certain amount of good works will get you into heaven,” they do believe that good works is the ONLY way to ensure that you are getting to heaven.

The problem with this approach is that it fools many people into THINKING that just because they are a “good” person, and that they do many “good” works, that they will be insured getting into heaven. But “many will say to [Jesus] in that day, Have I not done many wonderful works in thy name”, and then [He] will say to them, 'Depart from me, you workers of evil." (Matthew 7)

I refuse to get into a contest on this subject, especially since it’s off topic. It’s clear that Protestants disagree vehemently with Catholics regarding this.

Poppycock. The Catholic Church worked aggressively in keeping any translation into the common language from being promulgated among the people. They claimed that they did this because they felt the translations were “inferior”, but the reality was that the translations invariably carried anti-Catholic sympathies which they felt they needed to squelch.

No, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about keeping the people in ignorance. In today’s church, (both Catholic and Protestant) if someone couldn’t read, they’d actually teach them to read, and then the first thing they’d put into their hands would be a Bible.

What I’m talking about is the fact that the Catholic Church worked tirelessly keeping English translations from being disseminated and used by anyone who could read. While it is true that the common man could not read, there were many learned men who could. This was who the Catholic Church did not want to get a hold of any English versions.

The Catholic Church canonized Scripture. You make it sound as if they were trying to hide the truth from people that they can only discover in Scripture. What you fail to understand is that the early Church did not hand out Bibles to people. The Word of God was communicated orally and the oral Tradition of Christ was actually the preferred means to communicate the gospel message rather than the written.
The apostle John testifies to the oral Tradition being preferred in the following verses:
“…you know our testimony is true. I have much to write to you, but I do not wish to write with pen and ink. Instead, I hope to see you soon, when we can talk face to face. Peace be with you.” (3 John 1:12b-14a).

Scripture instructs to hold to both the oral and the written Tradition of the apostles: 2Th 2:15 “Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.”

“Hold the form of sound words which thou hast heard of me [oral Tradition!]: in faith and in the love which is in Christ Jesus. Keep the good thing committed to thy trust by the Holy Ghost who dwelleth in us.” (2 Timothy 1:13-14)

This verse explains how the gospel message was communicated in the apostolic age and beyond: 2Ti 2:2 “And the things which thou hast heard of me by many witnesses, the same commend to faithful men who shall be fit to teach others also.”

For more on apostolic Tradition, please read this article: catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9505fea1.asp

For the relationship between faith and works, read this: catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9909chap.asp

You do not have to have a certain amount of good works to be saved. You do need to be in a state of grace, which also does not mean that you are necessarily out doing good works. You could have just sacramentally confessed your sins and died and you will go to heaven because you are in a state of grace.

Your understanding of last rites is completely wrong. The Church does not teach that you have to receive the sacrament of the annointing of the sick in order to be saved!!

 

[una_fides]

I have a couple questions for you, PEPCIS: From where did you get your interpretation of Scripture? Where did you learn to interpret Scripture in the manner that you do? What oral teachings influenced your interpretation of Scripture? What church do you go to and what do they teach you every Sunday? And how can you be certain that you have the correct interpretation of the verses we are discussing?

There are many thousands of protestant denominations all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit in their varying interpretations of Scripture. If the Holy Spirit works through enlightening individuals reading Scripture alone, then either the HS is confused and is guiding sincere people trying to interpret Scripture into error, or he works in a different way to guide his Church into all truth. You will find “holy” people in every denomination. The fruit or good works of the person does not verify that they have the correct understanding of Christ’s teachings or even the fundamentals. All it means is they are a nice person. You’ll find nice atheists and you’ll also find very mean “Christians” in every denomination, in fact there are many mean, nasty, and angry people who would agree with you in your interpreations, but that does not mean your interpreations are necessarily false. You cannot place your trust in the holiness of a person, as they are human and prone to sin and failure. Furthermore, the Catholic Church has some of the holiest peole you will ever meet. Read the lives of the saints, and you will find stories of holy men and women who lived remarkably holy lives guided by God’s grace alone.

 

[jcrichton]

It is amazing that a seemingly simple bible passage could generate such a bewildering comments and countercomments. Everytime I open a thread like this, I become thankful that with our tendency to make things complicated, God created a body that can sort out this kind of confusions with an assurance of His guidance.
If I were not a Catholic, I would surely feel the need to have a body, like the Supreme Court, who could give the final decision on matters pertaining to the constitution.
God in His wisdom is providing us with such a body to give us an unerring guidance in matters more important than a country’s constitution. Thinking about it as a Catholic I am thrilled that it is and has been with us, very much alive after 2,000 years of existence. God is giving it to us because this function to teach (among others) is necessary. Look at how we become conflicted with such a seemingly simple passage as John 3:16!

The mystery lies in the human mind abilities to engage the same information and process it according to the individuals particular experiences and/or beliefs–I forget how it goes… but there’s an anecdote about some blind men and an elephant… each described the animal from their personal perspective… sadly they were all wrong!

I concur with you that it is wonderful to have the Church as our ultimate guide and instructor–the words ring specially true during moments of conflict/disagreements: “As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways…”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

The Catholic position is that you MUST do “good” works to enter into heaven. But Jesus said Himself that not all those who have done good works and called Jesus “Lord” will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only those who have done the will of His Father in heaven. (Matt. 7:21) True, good and saving works are ONLY produced by good and saving faith. Jesus knows the difference. Do you?

Can you quote the source?

I’ve been Catholic all of my life and I have never encounter such theology… you may be glimming at the understanding that an empty Faith is nothing… we must accompany Faith with works in order to demonstrate to the world that we are a changed people:

43"You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you: Love your enemies* and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (St. Matthew 5:43-48)

Yet this must be reconciled with Romans 10:9, 10 which says, in part, that “If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus…”

 

[jcrichton]

Please. It is more than abundantly clear that the Catholic church teaches that whether or not someone goes to heaven is based on whether or not that person dies in a state of grace. In other words, if that person is not producing good works to indicate his state of grace, and he dies without receiving the “last rites”, he will have died outside of grace.

I’m not sure how it is that Catholics can say with a straight face that they do not believe that you must work your way to get to heaven, and then out of the other side of their mouth claim that they do not believe that once you are saved, that you are always saved.

That’s playing with words. To claim that the Catholic Church does not teach that “a certain amount of good works” gets you into heaven is supposed to mean that Catholics don’t believe you have to work to get to heaven. That would be a blatant misrepresentation of what the Catholic Church teaches, because even though the Catholic Church does not teach that “a certain amount of good works will get you into heaven,” they do believe that good works is the ONLY way to ensure that you are getting to heaven.

The problem with this approach is that it fools many people into THINKING that just because they are a “good” person, and that they do many “good” works, that they will be insured getting into heaven. But “many will say to [Jesus] in that day, Have I not done many wonderful works in thy name”, and then [He] will say to them, 'Depart from me, you workers of evil." (Matthew 7)

I refuse to get into a contest on this subject, especially since it’s off topic. It’s clear that Protestants disagree vehemently with Catholics regarding this.

Poppycock. The Catholic Church worked aggressively in keeping any translation into the common language from being promulgated among the people. They claimed that they did this because they felt the translations were “inferior”, but the reality was that the translations invariably carried anti-Catholic sympathies which they felt they needed to squelch.

No, that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about keeping the people in ignorance. In today’s church, (both Catholic and Protestant) if someone couldn’t read, they’d actually teach them to read, and then the first thing they’d put into their hands would be a Bible.

What I’m talking about is the fact that the Catholic Church worked tirelessly keeping English translations from being disseminated and used by anyone who could read. While it is true that the common man could not read, there were many learned men who could. This was who the Catholic Church did not want to get a hold of any English versions.

You must revisit your anti-Catholic 101 professors and as for your money back… since you are still ignorant of Catholic Doctrine!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

True, this is getting way off topic, but the point is that the Catholic Church has many teachings which are not correct. You’ll notice that una fides is happy to simply state that this is not an “official” teaching of the Church. And even what you have stated COULD be wrongly interpreted to mean that Paul was talking to a bunch of people who worshiped the same God and would end up in heaven just like us because they worship the same God.

You have to be extremely careful to not only make mention that they “worship the same God” but that Paul was trying to teach them what they lacked - a proper understanding of who that God is, so that they could come to the knowledge of saving faith.

Are you fully contradictory or just when it comes to the Catholic Church?

All of my life the same Doctrine has been taught: the fullness of the Faith remains in the Catholic Church!

Yet, you claim to have better understanding of the Church while simultaneously denying the Teachings of the Church on the Fullness of Faith and claiming that the Church teaches that we are all saved regardless of the manner which we Worship Yahweh God!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Not quite. Non-believers are condemned because they are sinnners. They are not saved because they have not believed in the Son’s name. Everyone enters the world condemned in sin from Adam. It is only through propitiation of Christ’s work on the cross that man escapes this condemnation.

You’ve just rewritten the Holy Scriptures and missed the point I was making!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

How typical of those who injure others, and then to blame the other for the damage that they themselves have caused.

Isn’t it, though! Just look at how blind Luther was claiming to be correcting the error of the Church while making himself the full authority of Scriptures as he dismantled the Sacred Writings removing those books which in his infinite (know that I am making a play of words) wisdom he deemed them to not have been inspired by the Holy Spirit; coincidentally, he went to the extend of addit text into Scriptures and teaching his blind followers that he had the mind of God and was able to pronounce and make changes as he thought fit… interestingly enough, it was not centuries but a little bit of time that elapsed before his reformation was further enhanced by the personal interpretation of his followers (some which re-stated the very same books that Luther removed from the Bible) who determined that they possessed true enlightenment as they were guided by the spirit! (Flash!: it is still happening today–junior Luthers continue to reinvent the church.)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

No, I am not “exalting” anyone. We are all men, and we make mistakes. That’s something that even the Pope does.

Perhaps something is lost in the translation:

After all, it was Luther who came to this realization in the reading of Paul’s epistle to the Romans that resulted in his Protestant epiphany that “the just shall live by faith” means that nothing else is required for heaven except faith. The “live” in this context is spiritual life, not to be confused with earthly rewards or benefits, though there are oftentimes worldly benefits achieved through godly living.

I cannot but conclude that you believe that the Church (all Christians throughout time) did not understand that we must have Faith and that only Luther was enlightened enough to discover such grand finding.

If that is not exalting a man I don’t know what is!

But you are wrong in your determination to state that Faith alone saves since not even Jesus made such a statement–quite the contrary, He demanded Obedience and adherence to Him as the only means to Salvation:

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Luke 14:26
"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:27
And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

Luke 14:33
In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

John 14:15
"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them." (St. John 17:20-26)

Jesus must have been wrong then, huh?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

You don’t read for comprehension, do you?

Perhaps you could clarify since demons belive that there’s One God, yet their faith is empty as they do not submit to His Authority!

Yet, you claim that all that there is to Salvation is Faith–then you embelish by making definitions of faith vs faith!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I think I may just have to ignore you, because you don’t say ANYTHING. You post a bunch of Scriptures without comment, and then expect that they actually support your BELIEFS? Thanks for playing,here are some parting gifts…

It is your choice to remain silent, I respect that. But please do not curb my right to protest your protestation!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[PEPCIS]

. . . I will not answer any name calling and will only pray that you see the light and stop causing our Lord so much pain by your rejection of the only church that operates under the full authority of Allmighty GOD. I pray continually for unity in the body of Christ. His will, the will of his catholic church be done. Garland

Have you ever heard the saying that “If you are not part of the answer, then you are part of the problem”? If you want to sit back and NOT engage others in an effort to convince them, as we are commanded to do (1 Peter 3:15), then you must be a part of the problem. Why not be a part of the solution?

 

[mikeledes]

So, are you suggesting that St. Peter desires that we aspire to attain an empty Faith?

Maran atha!

Angel

Definitely not!

God Bless,
Michael