How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[una_fides]

As I stated in the previous post, the lack of words that were available did not allow a proper stating. The “in Him” is not intended to convey “abiding in Christ.” It was intended to convey the understanding that if you are a branch that is scrumping off the Church, and you aren’t producing fruit (which you wouldn’t be if you were not a true Christian), then you would be cut off and thrown into the fire.
In other words, “in Him” (in the context of John 15) is merely a euphemism for “a branch which is attempting to look like a branch of Christ.” It cannot fool Christ, for Christ states that only those who are truly abiding in Him will produce fruit, and therefore, any branch which is found in Him that is not producing fruit, is a branch which is not abiding.

Sounds like you are assuming a knowledge of the author’s intention in using particular words that you cannot possibly know. Your idea that the author of this passage–the Holy Spirit–just could not have thought of a better more theologically exact way of saying that “in him” actually is referring to just being “in a congregation” but not really being “in him” as the passage says or that it’s referring to one who is pretending to be “in him” but truly is not. I wonder how confident can you really be in your interpretation of this passage?

The problem with YOUR thinking is that if you reverse the analogy that you’ve created, you will find that it is ridiculous to assert that someone is abiding in Christ, yet not producing fruit, because Christ states unequivocally that ANY branch which is abiding WILL PRODUCE FRUIT. Yet you want to make the two terms “in Him” and “abiding in Christ” to mean the same thing, which makes a true conundrum by showing that a branch can be “in Him” (abiding) yet not producing fruit. Impossible, according to Christ.

Does the text say the branch *never *produced any fruit at any time or that it did not produce worthy or good fruit?
Most importantly, the text makes perfect sense if you think about it. If a person IN Christ does not produce fruit, then he will be removed. (The word “abide” in Greek can also be translated “to continue”.) A person that continues (abides) in him produces fruit because it has not ceased to produce fruit and been removed. Verse 5 is not saying that everyone who is in Christ will continue in Christ and will automatically produce fruit. It is saying that one who continues to be in Christ produces fruit for if he did not produce fruit, he would not continue to be in Christ. Thus, a person can be justified initially (be placed in Christ) but can then not produce fruit and be taken away from the Root, which is Christ, and then will wither and die.

This understanding makes perfect logical sense and requires no fancy footwork of trying to say that one is “in him” but not really “in him.” There is no indication in the text that “in him” does not mean that the person is really “in him.” It does not make sense for the Author of Scripture to say that a branch that just “appears” to be “in me” but really truly isn’t in me that does not bear fruit will be taken away. Obviously a branch that is not truly in the Vine cannot bear fruit because it is not attached to the root. The author later explains such people in that state when he says in verse 6 that if anyone does not abide (continue) in him then he would be cast forth as a branch and wither. False professors are not in Christ and would not fall under the category of those “in him” that verse 2 is referencing.

 

[una_fides]

Here’s a book on predestination that seems to be very good: “Predestination” by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange. I haven’t read it yet, but I intend to order it and read it soon (as soon as I get through several others I’m working on). Here is a link to a preview of the book: thesumma.info/predestination/index.php
Unfortunately, the full text is not available online to my knowledge, but it can be purchased here: tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/535/category_id/15/ If anyone on here has read this book, I’d be interested in their thoughts on it.

 

[una_fides]

John 10:27-29
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given {them} to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch {them} out of the Father’s hand.

In case you think you can snatch yourself away; you can’t if you are a true child of God.

You are adding a meaning to the text that is not already there. It says that no one will “snatch them out.” It does not say that one cannot freely leave his hand. Nothing external can take one out of Christ’s hand; however, one still retains free will to leave if he so chooses. God does not force us against our will. If he did, then no one would sin.

 

[Tanner9188]

But we know that not to be the case… Jesus reveals to Kephas that Satan asked to demolish (my expression) them (the disciples) and that He prayed for Kephas so that his faith would not fail… then Jesus Commands Peter to shepherd the other ten… to suggest that once we have the Holy Spirit none can turn away from God is making God a thug who operates from a power base where his followers cannot leave under pain of death… interestingly enough that is precisely what happens but not because God Kills us but because we chose death rather than the Light (St. John 3:16-20); and St. Peter speaks against those who have abandoned the Body in spite of all that they had learned, experienced, and professed:

12 But these people speak evil of what they do not understand; they are like brute beasts, born only to be caught and killed, and like beasts they will be destroyed, being injured in return for the injuries they have inflicted. 13 Debauchery even by day they make their pleasure; they are unsightly blots, and amuse themselves by their trickery even when they are sharing your table; 14 with their eyes always looking for adultery, people with an insatiable capacity for sinning, they will seduce any but the most stable soul. Where greed is concerned they are at their peak of fitness. They are under a curse. 15 They have left the right path and wandered off to follow the path of Balaam son of Bosor, who set his heart on a dishonest reward, but soon had his fault pointed out to him: 16 a dumb beast of burden, speaking with a human voice, put a stop to the madness of the prophet. 17 People like this are dried-up springs, fogs swirling in the wind, and the gloom of darkness is stored up for them.
18 With their high-sounding but empty talk they tempt back people who have scarcely escaped from those who live in error, by playing on the disordered desires of their human nature and by debaucheries. 19 They may promise freedom but are themselves slaves to corruption; because if anyone lets himself be dominated by anything, then he is a slave to it;
20 and anyone who has escaped the pollution of the world by coming to know our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and who then allows himself to be entangled and mastered by it a second time, ends up by being worse than he was before. 21 It would have been better for them never to have learnt the way of uprightness, than to learn it and then desert the holy commandment that was entrusted to them. 22 What they have done is exactly as the proverb rightly says: The dog goes back to its vomit and: As soon as the sow has been washed, it wallows in the mud. (2 St. Peter 2:12-22)

Kephas is speaking on what was experienced in the early Church; he was not removed from the Living Gospel (Christ Jesus) as we are today and he is not speaking to or about the unbelievers; St. Peter is determined to warn the Believers that once we have been initiated into the Body of Christ and have become active members of the Body we cannot but continue in the path to our Salvation; if we are to turn away (reject Jesus) from the relationship and charge that has been bestowed upon us, we come into a state graver than that in which we were when we were totally ignorant of Christ.

My, friend, God will not force you to remain in His Presence if you wish to rejoin the darkness!

Maran atha!

Angel

If I were able to walk away from God, which I am not able for I belong to God and not myself…thank God, then I would have never been with God in the first place. My God is not a thug, but rather kind, compassionate and JUST! Guess what; this whole plan of creation is not about us in the primary sense; it about God displaying His glory. We have been blessed to participate. God’s glory is displayed in both His mercy toward mankind and in His wrath toward mankind.

 

[Tanner9188]

You are adding a meaning to the text that is not already there. It says that no one will “snatch them out.” It does not say that one cannot freely leave his hand. Nothing external can take one out of Christ’s hand; however, one still retains free will to leave if he so chooses. God does not force us against our will. If he did, then no one would sin.

No one, means no one, including oneself. How is that taking the word “no one” out of context. Keep in mind, (paraphrasing) that God says no one would come to Him unless He drew Him…why? Because men love darkness rather than the light. The only free will you have is to sin.

 

[Tanner9188]

Here’s a book on predestination that seems to be very good: “Predestination” by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange. I haven’t read it yet, but I intend to order it and read it soon (as soon as I get through several others I’m working on). Here is a link to a preview of the book: thesumma.info/predestination/index.php
Unfortunately, the full text is not available online to my knowledge, but it can be purchased here: tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/535/category_id/15/ If anyone on here has read this book, I’d be interested in their thoughts on it.

“One Lord, One faith, One baptism” (Eph 4:5) What does that mean? you use it as a signature.

 

[PEPCIS]

What separates us from instinctual beasts is the free will Christ gave us to choose.

That’s unfortunate that we don’t have the free will to choose. That’s like putting a hungry, and unruly child in front of a candy display and asking him to choose between aborting his mother’s child, or having all the candy he wants. It’s because his mind is too undiscerning to understand the gravity of what it means to abort a baby that he will invariably choose the candy.

So too, are we: unruly and disrespectful and full of terrible sins. The Bible says that we were walking and living “according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

Left to our own devices and wills, we would always choose against God, because without God’s loving, intervening Grace, we would NEVER understand the Gospel message: “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.” and “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Like Lazarus, we must be awakened from our spirituals graves. Without spiritual life, there is no spiritual understanding, and without spiritual understanding, there is no will directed toward God and what He wants for us.
una fides:

We still can choose after we have been initially justified: Good or Evil.

It is only after we have been spiritually awakened that we can begin to choose between good and evil. Before that point in our lives, all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Simply put, even our BEST righteousness is evil. That is why Jesus can say, “Be gone you workers of evil,” to those who produced their own righteousness, instead of living by HIS righteousness.
una fides:

Man can most sincerely believe in Christ with all his heart and be converted and justified and then at a later time can choose to reject his teachings, choose to sin, and / or even abandon his faith altogether and believe something else.

That’s an incorrect interpretation, and one that is dependent on creating many conundrums and conflicting statements in the Word.
una fides:

If a Muslim converts to Buddhism, you would not say that he was never really a Muslim to begin with.

Of course not. And why should I? You’ve incorrectly worded your criticism against my statement. The correct way to word it would be “If a Muslim converts to Buddhism, you wold not say that he was never really a Christian to begin with.” To which I would retort: “Of course I would!!”

But here’s the rub: the ONLY true faith is that in Jesus Christ, and the only origination for that faith is in God. If it is a self-derived faith, then it won’t mean anything, and you would rightly discern (with confidence) that anyone who had a self-derived faith was not worshiping the one, true God.
una fides:

If a sincerely converted Christian, who has lived in Christ for years and has produced good fruits of his conversion, is later deceived and falls from the faith and leaves and joins a false religion, he would have been a Christian but then would be one no longer for his mind and heart has rejected the grace that placed him in the correct position.

Let me help you reword that.

If a -]sincerely converted Christian/-] sincere person, who has believed that he has lived in Christ for years and has produced good fruits that seem to indicate sincerety of his conversion, -]is/-] and then later -]deceived and/-] falls from the -]faith/-] organized body of believers, and leaves and joins a false religion, he would have shown himself NOT to have been a Christian -]but/-] and then would be one no longer -]for/-] in his mind -]and heart has rejected the grace that placed him in the correct position/-].

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)

 

[mikeledes]

That’s unfortunate that we don’t have the free will to choose. That’s like putting a hungry, and unruly child in front of a candy display and asking him to choose between aborting his mother’s child, or having all the candy he wants. It’s because his mind is too undiscerning to understand the gravity of what it means to abort a baby that he will invariably choose the candy.

So too, are we: unruly and disrespectful and full of terrible sins. The Bible says that we were walking and living “according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

Left to our own devices and wills, we would always choose against God, because without God’s loving, intervening Grace, we would NEVER understand the Gospel message: “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness.” and “the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

Like Lazarus, we must be awakened from our spirituals graves. Without spiritual life, there is no spiritual understanding, and without spiritual understanding, there is no will directed toward God and what He wants for us.

It is only after we have been spiritually awakened that we can begin to choose between good and evil. Before that point in our lives, all of our righteousness is as filthy rags. Simply put, even our BEST righteousness is evil. That is why Jesus can say, “Be gone you workers of evil,” to those who produced their own righteousness, instead of living by HIS righteousness.

That’s an incorrect interpretation, and one that is dependent on creating many conundrums and conflicting statements in the Word.

Of course not. And why should I? You’ve incorrectly worded your criticism against my statement. The correct way to word it would be “If a Muslim converts to Buddhism, you wold not say that he was never really a Christian to begin with.” To which I would retort: “Of course I would!!”

But here’s the rub: the ONLY true faith is that in Jesus Christ, and the only origination for that faith is in God. If it is a self-derived faith, then it won’t mean anything, and you would rightly discern (with confidence) that anyone who had a self-derived faith was not worshiping the one, true God.

Let me help you reword that.

If a -]sincerely converted Christian/-] sincere person, who has believed that he has lived in Christ for years and has produced good fruits that seem to indicate sincerety of his conversion, -]is/-] and then later -]deceived and/-] falls from the -]faith/-] organized body of believers, and leaves and joins a false religion, he would have shown himself NOT to have been a Christian -]but/-] and then would be one no longer -]for/-] in his mind -]and heart has rejected the grace that placed him in the correct position/-].

“They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)

Do you believe everyone who remains a member of a Christian congregation until they die are assured salvation?

Galatians 1:6

** 6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel**;

Galatians 5:4

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[PEPCIS]

Do you believe everyone who remains a member of a Christian congregation until they die are assured salvation?

No, that’s what the Catholic faith believes - that you must preservere to the end in good works. The Bible says that “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth, and believe in thy heart, thou shalt be saved…”

 

[PEPCIS]

We are not saying that works are independent from faith.

Pardon me…Yes, you are. If you were saying that works are dependent upon faith, then it would be crystal clear that Catholics mean to say that works are a RESULT of TRUE, saving faith. But Catholics say that works must operate as an independent aspect of salvation, in addition to faith, whereas James says that works are an integral (dependent) aspect of faith. There IS a difference, as subtle as that may be.

mikeledes:

Good works are the outward manifestation of a [true] faith. . .

If it were truly believed by you, there would be no argument, and you would not have corrected me to point out that “faith alone” is wrong. But the Bible states that faith alone is all that is needed, because true, saving faith alone WILL PRODUCE works.

mikeledes:

What we are saying is that once you have faith, you’re not a mindless robot automatically producing good works.

I understand that. But by the same token, we are not saying that “once you have faith, you are a mindless robot automatically producing good works.” But, your BIAS has changed. Whereas before, you “used to walk according to the course of this world,” your bias was oriented toward, “the prince of the power of the air.”

Now that you have been “quickened from your trespasses and sins”, you have a NEW BIAS, a new orientation TOWARD God. Whereas, in times past you used to do the bidding of the devil, and rarely gave a thought regarding spiritual matters, now you do the bidding of the Father, and rarely give thoughts regarding sinful matters.

Whereas in times past you could only think continually regarding sinful thoughts, now you are commanded to think about those things that are holy and good.

It doesn’t mean that you will be perfect, but it does mean that you are a new creature, full of awareness of where you USED to stand in relationship to God, desiring to please Him in all you do.

mikeledes:

For if that were the case, then why do Christians sin?

Well, wer’e not sinners because we sin, if that’s what you mean.

mikeledes:

Why is it that, though guided by the Spirit, the Christian choses to sin?

Because he has a fleshly body, and fleshly desires.

 

[mikeledes]

Pardon me…Yes, you are. If you were saying that works are dependent upon faith, then it would be crystal clear that Catholics mean to say that works are a RESULT of TRUE, saving faith. But Catholics say that works must operate as an independent aspect of salvation, in addition to faith, whereas James says that works are an integral (dependent) aspect of faith. There IS a difference, as subtle as that may be.

If it were truly believed by you, there would be no argument, and you would not have corrected me to point out that “faith alone” is wrong. But the Bible states that faith alone is all that is needed, because true, saving faith alone WILL PRODUCE works.

We don’t believe faith alone as understood by Protestants because we believe that there are other dispositions (love and sorrow for sins) other than faith that are needed for salvation. You believe that we are saved by faith alone and then make everything ancilliary to that. In other words, what faith produces is not necessary* for *salvation, it is only evidence that one has been saved. Well scripture teaches that in order to be justified we need to believe and repent. This repentance may be a product of faith, but according to Scripture, you do not receive forgiveness of sins without repenting first. So here we have faith and a product of faith both being necessary for salvation. According to you however, only faith and not its products are necessary for salvation.

I understand that. But by the same token, we are not saying that “once you have faith, you are a mindless robot automatically producing good works.” But, your BIAS has changed. Whereas before, you “used to walk according to the course of this world,” your bias was oriented toward, “the prince of the power of the air.”

Now that you have been “quickened from your trespasses and sins”, you have a NEW BIAS, a new orientation TOWARD God. Whereas, in times past you used to do the bidding of the devil, and rarely gave a thought regarding spiritual matters, now you do the bidding of the Father, and rarely give thoughts regarding sinful matters.

Whereas in times past you could only think continually regarding sinful thoughts, now you are commanded to think about those things that are holy and good.

It doesn’t mean that you will be perfect, but it does mean that you are a new creature, full of awareness of where you USED to stand in relationship to God, desiring to please Him in all you do.

Well, wer’e not sinners because we sin, if that’s what you mean.

Because he has a fleshly body, and fleshly desires.

We do not believe good works are independent from faith because works are rooted in faith. What we are saying is that a believer does not always conciously chose to do good works and that’s proven by the fact that Christians do sin. And one who has* true faith can become fruitless*.

John 15:2

2"Every branch IN Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

2 Peter 1:9

9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

Ezekiel 18:24

24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

And we have clear examples of those who are regenerated and righteous committing grievous sin - one example is the gross idolatry of King Solomon and also:

** 6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel**;

Galatians 5:4

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

**

No, that’s what the Catholic faith believes - that you must preservere to the end in good works. The Bible says that “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth, and believe in thy heart, thou shalt be saved…”

We believe that you must persevere in faith and love, which includes works:

Romand 2:6-7

**6who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; **

And yes, Pepcis if we believe and confess, not believe alone, we will be saved. And to emphasize his point, Paul later says that confession - which you define as a work - results in salvation.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

What is interesting about this is that not all Calvinists agree with your exegesis of this passage which indicates that your interpretation is not as clearly gleaned from this passage as you think. Of course, these other Calvinists give “take away” and John 15:6 another spin, claiming that it does not refer to eternal damnation. Take, for example, these quotes from a Calvinist BAPTIST website:

"Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away." Many Calvinists have swung to the other extreme, erring in the opposite direction. We greatly fear that their principal aim was to overthrow the reasoning of their theological opponents, rather than to study carefully this verse in the light of its setting. They have argued that Christ was not speaking of a real believer at all. They insist that the words “beareth not fruit” described one who is within the “visible Church” but who has not vital union with Christ. But we are quite satisfied that this too is a mistake.

The words of our Lord leave us no choice in our application of this passage—as a whole and in its details—no matter what the conclusions be to which it leads us. Surely none will deny that they are believers to whom He says “Ye are the branches” (John 15:5). Very well then; observe that Christ employs the same term in this needed word in John 15:2: “Every branch in me, that beareth not fruit.” To make it doubly clear as to whom He was referring, He added, “Every branch in me that beareth not fruit.” Now if there is one form of expression, which, by invariable and unexceptional use, indicates a believer more emphatically and explicitly than another, it is this:—“in me,” “in him,” “in Christ.” Never are these expressions used loosely; never are they applied to any but the children of God: “If any one be in Christ (he is) a new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17).

pbministries.org/books/pink/John/john_51.htm

No let me clarify that this Calvinist is not saying that this is about loss of salvation. Otherwise, he wouldn’t be Calvinist. But what I find interesting that this Calvinist clearly sees the “branch in Me” as a reference to true believers precisely because the Bible exclusively reserves “in Me” to true believers. Why do two Calvinists draw different conclsuions from the same verse regarding the state of the branch in question? Moreover, he also argues that “bears no fruit” does not mean he never bore fruit, but that he no longer bearing fruit. He bases this on the Greek, but I have to investigate that claim. And, BTW, he is not the only Calvinist to argue this. I have personally seen people who believe in perseverance of the saints/ eternal security (Calvinists and non-Calvinists), argue that John 15:2 refers to believers precisely because of the language Christ uses.

Now you argue that this “fruitless” branch that Christ describes as being “in Him” is not really “in Him.” In other words, you propose that “in Me” or “in Him” can also be used to describe a false professor who is a member of a congregation. As the Calvinist above clearly points out, “in him” is a phrase the Bible exclusively reserves for those who have been truly justified/saved. There is not a single verse, as stated by the Calvinist above, that applies this phrase to anyone that is *not *a true believer. So John 15:2 will be the sole example in which “in Me” is applied to a false professor. Therefore, if you are going to argue that this “in Me” here means anything other than the uniform definition and very specific application of this phrase in the Bible, then you need to substantiate your claim by providing hard evidence of “in Me” being applied to a false professor. Can you please provide a verse in which “in Him” is used as reference to a false professor ? Because if you can’t, then you have absolutely no evidence to prove that “in Me” in verse 2 means anything other than what “in Him, in Me, in Christ” means in every other verse in the Bible, namely, a person who has been truly justified. Until you can provide this evidence, then the plain meaning of the verse still stands.

God Bless,
Michael

I reaffirm what I said in this post and I repeat the very words of Christ:

2"Every branch IN ME that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

Nowhere in Scripture is “in Me” ever applied to a false professor. It is a phrase exclusively reserved for the genuinely justified.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

I also would like to address John 10:28. In most Catholic documents regarding predestination, this passage is often cited. The Catholic Haydock Commentary says the following:

Ver. 28. They shall not perish for ever: and no man shall snatch them out of my hand. He speaks of his elect, of those whom he called by a special Providence and mercy, whom he blessed with more than ordinary graces, and with the gift of final perseverance to the end in his grace. (Witham)

In other words, the Catholic Church believe that this passage is fulfilled in those who are predestined to glory and hence is primarily about those who are predestined to glory. Regarding predestination, all Catholics must uphold the following basic principles:

(1) Predestination to the first grace is not because God foresaw our naturally good works, nor is the beginning of salutary acts due to natural causes; (2) predestination to glory is not because God foresaw we would continue in the performance of supernaturally meritorious acts apart from the special gift of final perseverance; (3) complete predestination, in so far as it comprises the whole series of graces from the first up to glorification, is gratuitous or previous to foreseen merits.

It is also a dogma of the Catholic Church that those whom God has chosen to be glorified will infallibly be saved and they will be given efficacious graces, including the gift of final perseverance, that will secure their final salvation. And hence, thwe Catholic Church teaches that the number of those who are predestined is immutable, none can be added and none can be lost.

However, the Catholic Church also teaches that all of those who are predestined will be justified and glorified, but not all of the justified are numbered among the predestined. This, we believe, is not only taught by Scripture, but was the historic teaching of Christianity for 1500 years - taught by Augustine, whom Calvinists love to make reference to - and also taught by Martin Luther himself and upheld by Confessional Lutherans today. We believe that the number of the justified is not coextensive with the number of the predestined - and that’s because Scripture teaches one can lose his or her salvation (fall from grace) - and hence those that fall from grace and die in that state were not numbered among the predestined, though they were truly justified at one point. God allowed these to fall away, but He secures the salvation of the predestined by granting them the unmerited gift of final perseverance.

Moreover, I want to touch on the word “snatch.” The Greek word used here is harpazo, which generally means to carry off by force. Another good example of this word in Scripture is Matthew 12:29:

"Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off (harpazo) his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.

So “harpazo” involves force and means to overpower. God cannot be forced to do anything or be overpowered. Everything happens in accordance with God active or permsissive will. When Adam fell from his state of original rightoeousness, did Satan overpower God. No. God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Adam fell. So in the case of those who do fall away, they are not being “snatched.” God allows them to fall away, but actively secures the salvation of the predestined.

1 Corinthians 8:11

11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish (Gk. apollumi), for whom Christ died?

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

Here’s a book on predestination that seems to be very good: “Predestination” by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange. I haven’t read it yet, but I intend to order it and read it soon (as soon as I get through several others I’m working on). Here is a link to a preview of the book: thesumma.info/predestination/index.php
Unfortunately, the full text is not available online to my knowledge, but it can be purchased here: tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/535/category_id/15/ If anyone on here has read this book, I’d be interested in their thoughts on it.

That’s an excellent book.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[mikeledes]

We don’t believe faith alone as understood by Protestants because we believe that there are other dispositions (love and sorrow for sins) other than faith that are needed for salvation. You believe that we are saved by faith alone and then make everything ancilliary to that. In other words, what faith produces is not necessary* for *salvation, it is only evidence that one has been saved. Well scripture teaches that in order to be justified we need to believe and repent. This repentance may be a product of faith, but according to Scripture, you do not receive forgiveness of sins without repenting first. So here we have faith and a product of faith both being necessary for salvation. According to you however, only faith and not its products are necessary for salvation.

**Whereas in times past you could only think continually regarding sinful thoughts, now you are commanded to think about those things that are holy and good.

It doesn’t mean that you will be perfect, but it does mean that you are a new creature, full of awareness of where you USED to stand in relationship to God, desiring to please Him in all you do.

Well, wer’e not sinners because we sin, if that’s what you mean.

Because he has a fleshly body, and fleshly desires.**

We do not believe good works are independent from faith because works are rooted in faith. What we are saying is that a believer does not always conciously chose to do good works and that’s proven by the fact that Christians do sin. And one who has* true faith can become fruitless*.

John 15:2

2"Every branch IN Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.

2 Peter 1:9

9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.

Ezekiel 18:24

24"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

And we have clear examples of those who are regenerated and righteous committing grievous sin - one example is the gross idolatry of King Solomon and also:

** 6I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ**, for a different gospel;

Galatians 5:4

4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

God Bless,
Michael

I’m sorry. The part highligted in blue should be in a quotes, since those are Pepcis’s words.

God Bless,
Michael

 

[Tanner9188]

No, that’s what the Catholic faith believes - that you must preservere to the end in good works. The Bible says that “if thou shalt confess with thy mouth, and believe in thy heart, thou shalt be saved…”

The wheat and the tares look the same, act the same, but cannot be distinguished until the harvest. However, some of the tares that walk away to a false religion are the apostates.

1 John 2:19 (says it so clearly)
They went out from us, but they were not {really} of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but {they went out,} so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

 

[una_fides]

No one, means no one, including oneself. How is that taking the word “no one” out of context. Keep in mind, (paraphrasing) that God says no one would come to Him unless He drew Him…why? Because men love darkness rather than the light. The only free will you have is to sin.

If you are in the hand of the Father it would be impossible for you to “snatch yourself” out. The word “to snatch” implies an outside force trying to overthrow the power of the Father in keeping those whom he has predestined. Nevertheless, the interpretation admits to the possibility that the person within the hand of the Father could leave voluntarily. There is no indication that the free will of the person has been removed.

We do have a free will to sin. When we choose to do good, it is brought about by grace. When we do evil, we do so of our own free will. We can see that our free will remains by the fact that we still sin after regeneration. You can either conclude then if you commit a sin after regeneration that a) you either were not truly regenerated, b) God willed you to do evil, or c) you still retained the free will to refuse to cooperate with God’s grace, which was leading you to do the right thing.

The above passage could also be referring to those who have been predestined to glory whom God has given the grace of final perseverance. Such people still retain free will, but God knows because that they will cooperate and endure until the end by his grace and then be saved.

 

[una_fides]

“One Lord, One faith, One baptism” (Eph 4:5) What does that mean? you use it as a signature.

This quote from Ephesians 4:5 speaks of the oneness of the true faith. Just as there is only one Lord and one true baptism, there is only one true faith. My name on here una fides is Latin for “one faith.” From the Nicene Creed: I believe in one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church (and one baptism for the forgiveness of sins). Christ only founded one Church and only entrusted to her one unified message. I believe that Christ’s prayer for Peter–that his faith would not fail–he included in that prayer for his successors. It is absurd to think that Christ would allow his Church to fall into universal error after the death of the apostles. The successors to the apostles dispersed throughout the entire world, who lived holy lives and many of whom died for this faith, must have held to the same teachings the apostles left them. They were guided by the same Holy Spirit, the Spirit of unity and truth, that guided the apostles. This is the Catholic Church, founded by the apostles and continued on through their successors who they appointed to take their place. These ealry Church fathers universally understood and taught that their positions of authority came from the Apostles themselves as they received a special grace from the Holy Spirit for this ministry through the laying on of the apostles’ hands (1 Tim 4:14; 2 Tim 1:6). An honest and indepth study of the teachings and theology early Church fathers will demonstrate to anyone that they were distincly Catholic and held to Catholic teachings. Either the Church immediately fell into complete heresy and remained in it for over 1500 years or she was the same Church she has always claimed to be: one, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic. There is only one faith, handed down by the apostles, preserved by their successors, and lived by the saints for 2000 years.

 

[Tanner9188]

If you are in the hand of the Father it would be impossible for you to “snatch yourself” out. The word “to snatch” implies an outside force trying to overthrow the power of the Father in keeping those whom he has predestined. Nevertheless, the interpretation admits to the possibility that the person within the hand of the Father could leave voluntarily. There is no indication that the free will of the person has been removed.

“chathah” Greek for snatch; Defined: to take hold of, seize, take away - you can remove yourself from the grasp of God? Wow! I’m speechless!

We do have a free will to sin. When we choose to do good, it is brought about by grace. When we do evil, we do so of our own free will. We can see that our free will remains by the fact that we still sin after regeneration. You can either conclude then if you commit a sin after regeneration that a) you either were not truly regenerated, b) God willed you to do evil, or c) you still retained the free will to refuse to cooperate with God’s grace, which was leading you to do the right thing. The good a man does in the sight of God is because of the indwelling of the Spirit; a true believer has a new what? Heart---- Given by whom? God. —

3John 1:11 -
Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God. Emphasis is the “good” comes from God & the negative is that the one who does not do good is not of God. When you see the positive with the negative in a single passge; this is major emphasis on a point.

The above passage could also be referring to those who have been predestined to glory whom God has given the grace of final perseverance. Such people still retain free will, but God knows because that they will cooperate and endure until the end by his grace and then be saved.

I would call it saving grace; never heard of “grace of final perseverance”; doesn’t appear in the Bible that way…of course He is speaking about the elect whom He foreknew and predestined - so much for that free will.