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Tanner9188
Guest
**
Unfortunately you put the precepts of men through religion before the truth of Scripture; therefore you are in error.**
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Unfortunately you put the precepts of men through religion before the truth of Scripture; therefore you are in error.**
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Tanner9188
Guest
**The indwelling of the holy Spirit Who leads the TRUE BELIEVER to the knowledge and understanding; by letting the word of God dwell in you richly. Most are not Christians or perhaps they are new Christians making mistakes. But one thing the Bible makes very clear is that there are the few who are His children and the many who think they are but are not. It is difficult to explain to unbelievers because they have not experienced the radical change in their thought, words and deeds and the bowing to the King of King out of a need for His mercies and grace; knowing you have nothing to offer.
The Bible is the infallible word of God; all 66 books. One can claim whatever they want, but the truth will be manifested in the life of the believer; the death of the old man and a new creation in Christ will has a dramatic effect in the way one lives. No one who has this Spirit and experienced the radical change in their life has little room for doubt as to their status with God. Most people that ask this question have no idea what the heck one is talking about because it has not happened to them.
No, because the Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.
Why would I stand up against the Christ I love and the brothers and sisters in Christ that make up His bride; that would be foolish and prove you are unregenerated and just paying lipservice to god and playing religion.**
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twb1621
Guest
The following is the historically accepted interpretation of *1 Corinthians 8: *
⇒ 8:1-⇒ 11:1] The Corinthians’ second question concerns meat that has been sacrificed to idols; in this area they were exhibiting a disordered sense of liberation that Paul here tries to rectify. These chapters contain a sustained and unified argument that illustrates Paul’s method of theological reflection on a moral dilemma. Although the problem with which he is dealing is dated, the guidelines for moral decisions that he offers are of lasting validity. Essentially Paul urges them to take a communitarian rather than an individualistic view of their Christian freedom. Many decisions that they consider pertinent only to their private relationship with God have, in fact, social consequences. Nor can moral decisions be determined by merely theoretical considerations; they must be based on concrete circumstances, specifically on the value and needs of other individuals and on mutual responsibility within the community. Paul here introduces the theme of “building up” (oikodome), i.e., of contributing by individual action to the welfare and growth of the community. This theme will be further developed in 1 Cor 14; see the note on ⇒ 1 Cor 14:3b-5. Several years later Paul would again deal with the problem of meat sacrificed to idols in ⇒ Romans 14:1-⇒ 15:6.
The purpose was to promote support and enlightenment of the weaker in Knowledge and understanding of the faith by the faithful. Having compassion and strengthening all together in unison.
What I find rather peculiar is how you could possibly get from these verses that this reflects the weaker as none believers rather than as students still weak yet learning with sincere hearts but if they could walk away then non-believers;
“**There is no indication this was a true believer; otherwise they could not be ruined nor walk away.” **
**Because something is not said does not reflect the opposite in fact. That would be a presumptuous and careless luxury we are not entitled to most often used for the purpose of making things “fit” more to the way we think something is to mean. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning here. Otherwise your statement is in direct opposition to the very text; “**Nor can moral decisions be determined by merely theoretical considerations; they must be based on concrete circumstances”.
This actually addresses those who believe they know more than they know and end up misdirecting and driving students (diciples) away. It in no way puts any blame on the weak.
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paul_c
Guest
You see, the Apostles taught their disciples verbally, with only a couple of them writing anything down. Those that did, instructed their disciples in how to correctly interpret what they wrote. This knowledge has been passed down through the Catholic bishops and priests, coordinated through the papacy, for 2000 years. The New Testament letters and gospels were never designed to be standalone instruction manuals on salvation. The only reason that anyone believes in Sola Scriptura today is that men separated themselves from the magesterium and had nothing left but scripture to guide them. And while Scripture is inspired, the men who separated themselves from the church are not, and they interpret scriptures falsely, not because of ill intent, but simply due to ignorance.
For instance, while as you note above, God knows who will be saved and who will not. That is because he has perfect knowledge into each man’s heart and he knows how each man will act before he does so. But men still need to do their part. Those that are predestined, will love God and Neighbor and will end their lives in the state of grace. They will not know they have been predestined until they die but they will know that if they faithfully follow the teachings of the Jesus, as passed down by the Church, that they will be saved. That is our hope, that we will persevere to the end. This is exactly how St. Paul talked about it.
And finally, yes, nothing should be added or subtracted from the Bible. You think this means that there is no truth other than what is in the Bible, but that is not true. The Bible was never meant to include every truth in the universe. You know about the law of gravity, but that is not in the Bible. The Bible teaches some truths, but not all the truths. But no truth will contradict what is in the Bible, because everything that is in the Bible is true. What it really mans when it says not to add or subtract anything from the bible is to not change what is true. So the Deuterocanonical books should not have been subtracted and the words “Faith Alone” should not have been added to St. Paul’s epistle by Martin Luther. Those acts by Luther and his followers were blatant attempts to change the truths that God wanted handed down through the Catholic Church.
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teak421
Guest
**The indwelling of the holy Spirit Who leads the TRUE BELIEVER to the knowledge and understanding; by letting the word of God dwell in you richly. Most are not Christians or perhaps they are new Christians making mistakes. But one thing the Bible makes very clear is that there are the few who are His children and the many who think they are but are not. It is difficult to explain to unbelievers because they have not experienced the radical change in their thought, words and deeds and the bowing to the King of King out of a need for His mercies and grace; knowing you have nothing to offer.
The Bible is the infallible word of God; all 66 books. One can claim whatever they want, but the truth will be manifested in the life of the believer; the death of the old man and a new creation in Christ will has a dramatic effect in the way one lives. No one who has this Spirit and experienced the radical change in their life has little room for doubt as to their status with God. Most people that ask this question have no idea what the heck one is talking about because it has not happened to them.
No, because the Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God.
Why would I stand up against the Christ I love and the brothers and sisters in Christ that make up His bride; that would be foolish and prove you are unregenerated and just paying lipservice to god and playing religion.**
During the time of the Apostles, how many Old Testament books were there. They used the Septuagint.
- Michael
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onenow1
Guest
Quote =onenow1. May I jump in here.
#1. Yes through Baptism. Matt. 28: 16-20. #2. Jesus said so ! Matt. 19: 23- 26. <<In this verse I would not prsume on the Mercy of Jesus. # 3. >1 Corinthians 9: 24-27 Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air;
but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Peace, onenow1
opcorn:
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erikd
Guest
Tanner:
You still haven’t answered posts 587 or 585. I’d like to get answers to these posts so that I can understand under what authority you are able to make that kind of judgement. If you say I am in error, that means you are not. Your answer appears to not have any wiggle room in it, which means it is authoritative. However, if you cannot answer these two posts than how do I understand where you derive your authority? If you say “the Holy Spirit” than you really need to answer 585 as additional questions are warranted with this answer. Once again, I hope you just missed it and are not dodging the questions.
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Tanner9188
Guest
**You are espousing human philosphy; anyone who has God indwelt in them will know it for sure and the proof will be the complete change in ones life; the old man died and the new one lives.
This is my last post to this thread as it is getting way off topic and somewhat discouraging and heartbreaking.**
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paul_c
Guest
This is part of the process of conversion. You are starting to recognize that your theology is flawed and this is discouraging to you. At some point, maybe soon, you will realize that the Catholic Church teaches the truth and in fact, it is you who are espousing human philosophy of your own making.
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erikd
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Tanner:
That’s two threads you quit today without answering questions. What happenned?
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mikeledes
Guest
Hi Tanner! It’s not that simple. According to TULIP, Christ only died for the elect. So lets look at this passage again:
1 Corinthians 8:11
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
First of all, Paul has a true believer in view because he refers to the person as “brother.” Second of all, he says this person is a weak brother, not a “false” one. That’s a big difference. Finally, Paul explicitly states that Christ died for this weak brother. Do you believe that Christ died for the elect only, or for elect and non-elect?
God Bless,
Michael
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twb1621
Guest
I am pointing out the interpretation of the Gospel not of my own, but when you reach the point you can’t answer with a reasonable rebuttal it is time to consider you are interjecting derived personal opinion while unintentionally distorting scripture. you can continue to quit and refuse to learn the truth or realize It would be a major benefit to you to consider what we all are offering you here.
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mikeledes
Guest
The “grand daddy” that you refer in no way contradicts Catholic doctrine. The Catholic Haydock Bible Commentary on Romans 8:30 states:
Ver. 30. And whom he predestinated, them he also called to the true faith and to his service, without any deserts in them, nay, when all mankind were guilty of eternal death, by original sin. — And whom he called, them he also justified, by faith, by hope, by a love of him, and a true penance. — And whom he justified, them he also glorified. That is, hath decreed to glorify. Yet not all who have been justified, but only his elect, who are under his special protection, and to whom he grants a perseverance in his grace to the end: so that the call to faith, their sanctification, their final perseverance, and glorification in heaven, are the effects of their free election and predestination. (Witham)
We believe that that passage is about those who are predestined to glory, commonly called “the elect.” Of the predestined, none shall be lost, none will ever perish. It is Catholic dogma that the number of the predestined is immutable, none can be added and none can be lost. So all who are predestined will be called, justified, and glorified. Where we differ from Calvinists is that we do not believe that all of the justified are numbered among the elect/ predestined. All those who are justified and not numbered among the predestined, God will allow them to ultimately freely fall from grace. And that is proven by passages like Hebrews 6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
No mere false professor can partake of the Holy Spirit and experience the heavenly gift of salvation. And it clearly says “renew them again to repentance.” You cannot be renewed again to something you never experienced. This is a concrete example of genuine Christians falling away. And to confirm that the author of Hebrews has genuine Christians in mind, he later says:
26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
This passage cannot be about false professors because no mere false pofessor can be sanctified by Christ though His blood. In fact, the author of Hebrews clearly states:
Hebrews 2:11
11For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
A person who is sanctified by Christ through His blood is a child of God and by definition is not a false professor. And yet Hebrews 10:29 clearly says that one who has been sanctified can fall from grace, confirming that those in Hebrews 6 are true Christians.
Continued in next post…
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mikeledes
Guest
So we believe that all of the predestined will be justified and will die in a state of grace. What we don’t believe is that the grace of justification is limited to the elect, that only the predestined will be justified. Scripture makes it clear that a justified person can fall from grace and since the predestined cannot be lost, then this makes it clear that not all of the justified are among the predestined. In Romans 8, Paul talks about the predestined. But just a few chapters later he says:
Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
If the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 8 is correct, then he is contradicting himself and undermining any purpose for the above passsage. For if he just finished telling the Romans in chapter 8 that all true believers will inevitably be glorified - thus giving them absolute assurance - then why would he later tell them to FEAR, that GOD WILL NOT SPARE THEM EITHER, and that they too can BE CUT OFF. If there is absolutely no chance of them being cut off according to Romans 8, then why would they suddenly fear being cut off in Romans 11? It makes no sense and Calvinism makes nonsense out of this passage. These passages can only be reconciled if the number of the justified is not coextensive with the number of the predestined.
This is the biblical and historic understanding of predestination and salvation for 1500 years until John Calvin introduced the innovation known as “perseverance of the saints” based on an erroneous interpretation of the Bible. Historic and Biblical Christianity teaches that the grace of justification is given to the predestined and those who are not. In the case of the predestined, they will infallibly die in a state of grace and God will ensure this fact. But those who are justified and are not predestined will freely fall from grace. Although Martin Luther introduced a number of doctrinal errors, he upheld this doctrine because he believed it was clearly taught by Scripture. It was John Calvin who invented this doctrine called “perseverance of the saints” and he was the first to make the Bible contradict itself on this issue.
God Bless,
Michael
Romans 11:20-22
**20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. **
If the Calvinist interpretation of Romans 8 is correct, then he is contradicting himself and undermining any purpose for the above passsage. For if he just finished telling the Romans in chapter 8 that all true believers will inevitably be glorified - thus giving them absolute assurance - then why would he later tell them to FEAR, that GOD WILL NOT SPARE THEM EITHER, and that they too can BE CUT OFF. If there is absolutely no chance of them being cut off according to Romans 8, then why would they suddenly fear being cut off in Romans 11? It makes no sense and Calvinism makes nonsense out of this passage. These passages can only be reconciled if the number of the justified is not coextensive with the number of the predestined.
This is the biblical and historic understanding of predestination and salvation for 1500 years until John Calvin introduced the innovation known as “perseverance of the saints” based on an erroneous interpretation of the Bible. Historic and Biblical Christianity teaches that the grace of justification is given to the predestined and those who are not. In the case of the predestined, they will infallibly die in a state of grace and God will ensure this fact. But those who are justified and are not predestined will freely fall from grace. Although Martin Luther introduced a number of doctrinal errors, he upheld this doctrine because he believed it was clearly taught by Scripture. It was John Calvin who invented this doctrine called “perseverance of the saints” and he was the first to make the Bible contradict itself on this issue.
God Bless,
Michael
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mikeledes
Guest
Paul has the true believer in view in 1 Corinthians 8 , not a false professor. That’s why he refers to the person in question as a weak brother (i.e. fellow believer). But this passage poses a problem for Calvinism because it contradicts two principles of TULIP, Limited Atonement and Perseverance of ths Saints:
1 Corinthians 8:11
11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
If this about a false professor, then that means that Christ did not only die for the elect (i.e. Limited Atonement). If this is not about a false professor because Pauls says Christ died for him, then this contradicts the doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints/ Eternal Security because Paul talks about a Christian perishing. And if Paul believed in Limited Atonement and/or Perseverance of the Saints, then he would be LYING in order to prevent Christians from causing weaker Christians to stumble (sin). He’s telling them that they can cause a fellow true believer to perish knowing that this is not true. But since we know Paul under the inspiration of the Spirit CANNOT lie, we also know that he is revealing a truth that contradicts Calvinism and exposes it for what it is, a theological system based on the doctrine of men, not of God.
God Bless,
Michael
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mikeledes
Guest
Those verses in no way contradict what the Catholic Church teaches. In fact, we can recocile Romans 8 - which is about the predestined - and Romans 11 - which clearly states that a true believer can lose their salvation. That’s because we believe these verses complement each other. Romans 11 indicates that not all true believers belong to the same group in Romans 8 (predestined/elect). We know Paul has true believers in view because he speifically addresses it to true believers (stand by your faith etc.). We also have Hebrews 6 and 10 which explicitly deal with true believers falling from grace. Calvinists based their doctrine on an erroneous interpretation of Romans 8 and other verses and then attempt to use these verses to somehow override other verses that contradict their theology, resulting in often illogical explanations.
God bless,
Michael
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AwGusTeen
Guest
Yes! However, I can fall away.
Through my Baptism and by the Grace of God.
**Only in that I need to keep doing what Christ commanded of us. Jesus left us with the formula - we simply need to take the initiative. The sacrement of Penance plays a huge part of the on-going salvific process.
“Straight is the path and narrow the way…” Tanner – it’s not a cakewalk and Jesus never said that it was.**
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jcrichton
Guest
But you are forgetting that everything that exists was brought into existence by Christ and that it is He Who holds everything in place… the angels are part of God’s existence and they too are in His Presence and exist in His Presence; yet, Lucifer chose to remove himself from God’s Presence and he persuaded other angels to join him in his rejection of God’s Authority…
Every single human being has been Created in the image and likeness of God, but not every single human being is a child of God; every child of God is called to emulate, follow, and obey Jesus, but not every single child of God complies; when Jesus states that none can remove a disciple of His from the Father’s Hand Jesus is not removing from us our ability have free will–even when that will is set against the Will of God!
Yahweh tells us that He does not wish that anyone should die (Ezekiel 18) but He does not force His Will upon anyone–“I have place Heaven and earth as witness… chose life in order that you may live…”
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Most do not because the issue is not Christ but their vision of Christ.
Jesus warns us all that in the end even those who seemed to be His disciples will be rejected by Him because for all their toil they did not obeyed Him!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
I would call it saving grace; never heard of “grace of final perseverance”; doesn’t appear in the Bible that way…of course He is speaking about the elect whom He foreknew and predestined - so much for that free will.
…sadly much misunderstood–God does not predestine anyone for damnation… neither does He place a blanquet “Salvation” on groups or individual because they merit it. Few are the ones that have received such Grace as to be kept by God–these have been only to further His Salvific Plan (one group is Israel’s Remnant, as individuals there are the prophets and Mary); those whom God foreknew and predestined for Salvation are found in St. John 1:12-13.
Maran atha!
Angel
Do you believe the Bible teaches that God chooses the “elect”’ which He determined before the foundation of the earth? Do you believe He knew about each person that would be born and walk on the earth?
I do not believe that God, Who is does not show partiality between one man and another, wills anyone to damnation; sadly, many wish to interpret God’s Word as though God has actually worked out Salvation for those furtunate enough to out of sheer luck be part of that “election,” while condemning all others in a haphazard and perplexing whim.
This theology refuses to accept God’s own Word that He does not Will anyone to die (Ezekiel 18) and that He did not come to condemn (Judge) but to bring Salvation to the world.
Sadaly Scriptural passages as Romans 8:29 confuse the whole issue of Salvation by not accepting St. John 1:10-13 and just running with what they perceive as automatic Salvation for them (since, God forbid, they see themselves as part of the “not elect”).
Reading selectively through Scriptures can have anyone claim any meaning… for instrance, there are those who believe that everything, including evil, comes from God… there are actual passages that could lead one to believe so… but only when read, interpreted and asimilated selectively and in the absence of all other Scripture that may directly counter the idiosyncratic belief… if we read:
1 Corinthians 11:12b
But everything comes from God.
Outside of any other Biblical text, this verse seems to agree with those who hold the belief that evil comes from God.
Apparently, this had been an issue in the early Church as St. James sees fit to clarify:
James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
And all those who continue to believe that Scriptures are telling them that God is the Creator of both good and evil refuse to accept Scriptures when they are told:
1 Timothy 4:4a
For everything God created is good,
In Christ we are predestined for Salvation because even before Creation Christ was our Savior!
Maran atha!
Angel
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