How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[jcrichton]

**The word you cited for charity is agape, which is love, not charity.

I don’t know where I made a statement that my will is Gods will; but I will say if you are filled with the spirit; you will be changed and the propensity to sin will be less and less as the Holy Spirit sanctifies us throughout our Christian life to the direction of the perfection of Christ; but never obtaining it in this life. We won’t be perfected until we see Him as He is, then we will be like Him. I never met a true and mature Christian, one that accepts God’s saving grace through faith in Christ and all that encompasses, that was concerned about loosing their salvation since the Bible makes it abundantly clear that a person of God has eternal security in Christ. If there were no other passages in all of Scripture;
1 John 5:13 “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.”

God bless you this night!**

But that does not equate with once saved always saved; Scriptures only guarantees that in Christ, the Savior, we can achieve Salvation!

When we read/interpret selectively we are forever ignoring/denying all Scripture that does not support our particular brand of theology:

8You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9Don’t grumble against each other, brothers, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door! (St. James 5:8-9)

St. James does not recommend that we become lax and self-assured about our “salvation;” he cautions us to stand firm (as Jesus warned, “…would He find Faith on earth?”) and to remember that those who sin will be Judged!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Tanner:

One more thing I wanted to put out there. As you see, I quoted you Scripture verse after Scripture verse showing you that indeed there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth, and I used a Bible that you are probably familiar with, the NKJV so that we can compare apples to apples. You said that I believe as I do due to the traditions of men. I also noticed that in your public profile you list Colossians 2:8 as your favorite Scripture verse:

Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy, and vain deceit; according to the tradition of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ

I wanted you to consider one thing regarding this verse and your earlier statements that I believe in a tradition of men. The Catholic Church was built by Jesus Christ Himself almost 2000 years ago. I’m sure every Protestant is screaming “NO” right now, but none can prove this statement wrong. History shows us a continuous succession of Popes starting with St. Peter and continuing onto Pope Benedict XVI today. Historical writings as early as the first century show us that the Pope indeed had authority and was not afraid to enforce the mandates of Christ.

The deceit of man, forming the traditions of man, is something the Church has fought since the beginning, starting with the early heresies and continuing right into the reformation. Historical writings prove that for 1500 years the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church believed as one Body of our risen Lord Jesus Christ. It was not until the reformation that Martin Luther, through his “95 Thesis” made an attempt at challenging the Church teachings which had stood for 1500 years prior. I invite you to consider the possibility that Martin Luther, along with his predecessors Such as John Wycliffe and Johannes Hus, and along with his co-conspirators like Ulrich Zwingli and John Calvin, are the real beginning of the traditions of men. Think about it logically: These men all have some disagreements with one another. How can this be? How is it that Christianity eventually led to approx. 40,000 denominations? Could it be because of the traditions of men as taught by the originators of these traditions? Could it be that people found it easier to swallow some teaching and therefore easier to reject others? Don’t forget King Henry VIII who beheaded two Catholic Priests for not allowing to receive a divorce. Obviously King Henry VIII found it easier to eliminate the truth than to accept it. But the truth still remains. After all, did Christ teach different Gospels? Did the Holy Spirit help each one of these men to believe just a little differently? NO. Christ taught one Gospel (1 Peter 4:17) and one Gospel only. There were no disagreements between the Apostles which were not settled and agreed upon by all. That is part of what make the Church “One.” The Church believes today as it has in the past, because Christ never left His Church (St. Matthew 28: 20). The early beliefs within the Catholic faith are easily verifiable through the historical writings of the Church Fathers. If you’re not familiar with them, I would invite you to check out Catholic.com and go into their search engine, and just type in “Church Fathers” and see what comes up. You will get plenty of writings which speak of Catholic doctrines, as described by Church Fathers as early as the first century. We’re talking about people who wrote historical documents who knew the Apostles and even Christ Himself!!! Historically this will show you that Church beliefs and Church doctrines have not changed. We still believe the same way we always did. Take for instance the perpetual virginity of the Virgin Mary: This was written about as early as 400AD by St. Jerome. Or how about the Mass: It was described as early as 130 - 165 AD by St. Justin Martyr. He also describes the Eucharist, as does St Augustine in the early 5th century. All consistent with Church teachings then and now, and all consistent with the Word of God. I invite you to look at the historical values of these writings and how they apply to the worship of God as seen through the eyes of billions of people for the last 2000 years. I think you will find unity and oneness, of which you will not find in any Protestant community around the world. This unity cannot come from man, as man is not intelligent enough to form and make last such a wonderful creation of God.

God Bless

Excellent post!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[BibleAnswer]

To understand John 3:16, you must compare scripture with scripture. We always hear this, however it all depends on what exactly you are comparing. In John 3:16 it is clearly stated “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

However the misinterpretation comes when we try to define what BELIEVING truly is. This is when we compare scripture with scripture, trying to define what it means to believe in Christ.

It is true that many people in this world believe, does this guarantee salvation, NO. Why? You ask. Well we must first understand that believing, as defined in the bible, *Unfortunately I don’t have my bible in front of me. As stated by God, is to follow all of His laws, meaning the Bible. The Bible is Gods law book, and for us to truly love Him, and worship Him, we must follow His doctrine. Once a person truly understands what the Bible is saying, they can move on from the MILK of the Word and move on to the MEAT of the word. Meaning the ability to get past certain principals and to continue to study and learn more, and grow in grace.

God expects us to continue our study, and to learn new things, the result of a person trying to follow the Word, trying to be faithful to the Word, is faith; faith that was put in us by the Holy Spirit; faith that was given to us by Christ. This faith is nothing that was accomplished by us, but Christ put His faith in us.

This is what it means by believing. To follow all of His laws set forth in the Bible. If a person decides to change a fundamental principal, or decides that this is ok in the bible, but that isn’t, he is on the wrong path, and is not truly believing in the Word. Thus this verse John 3:16 will have no meaning and not apply to you.

 

[paul_c]

To understand John 3:16, you must compare scripture with scripture. We always hear this, however it all depends on what exactly you are comparing. In John 3:16 it is clearly stated “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

However the misinterpretation comes when we try to define what BELIEVING truly is. This is when we compare scripture with scripture, trying to define what it means to believe in Christ.

It is true that many people in this world believe, does this guarantee salvation, NO. Why? You ask. Well we must first understand that believing, as defined in the bible, *Unfortunately I don’t have my bible in front of me. As stated by God, is to follow all of His laws, meaning the Bible. The Bible is Gods law book, and for us to truly love Him, and worship Him, we must follow His doctrine. Once a person truly understands what the Bible is saying, they can move on from the MILK of the Word and move on to the MEAT of the word. Meaning the ability to get past certain principals and to continue to study and learn more, and grow in grace.

God expects us to continue our study, and to learn new things, the result of a person trying to follow the Word, trying to be faithful to the Word, is faith; faith that was put in us by the Holy Spirit; faith that was given to us by Christ. This faith is nothing that was accomplished by us, but Christ put His faith in us.

This is what it means by believing. To follow all of His laws set forth in the Bible. If a person decides to change a fundamental principal, or decides that this is ok in the bible, but that isn’t, he is on the wrong path, and is not truly believing in the Word. Thus this verse John 3:16 will have no meaning and not apply to you.

Everything you say here is true. But I wonder if you recognize that the key attribute of a Christian is not Faith, but Love. When Jesus was asked what you need to do to gain eternal life, he said to follow the commandments. Later he says that the Commandments and the prophets are summed up by two statements, " Love God with all you heart, all your soul, all your mind and all your strength and love your neighbor as yourself." St. Paul, in 1Cor13, says that if you have Faith enough to move mountains, but do not have love, you are nothing. Notice in John 3:16, that the key is also love. For God so Loved the world that he gave his only son… Belief is to follow Jesus example and that example is to love… It is a never ending action that saves.

 

[BibleAnswer]

Very good point to bring up, thank you,

I stress this point again however, that a person needs to compare scripture with scripture, in order to define what LOVE is. Not what we think love is, but how God defines what LOVE is.

God defines love by telling us to follow His law. By obeying His Word, we love Christ, and therefore, we truly believe. True these principals seem ambiguous, but that is because the concept is so easy, obey the law of God. That is the bible. To obey the bible, is to understand what LOVE Truly is. To understand love is to believe, to believe in Christ takes faith, Faith in Christ is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Sincereley

 

[paul_c]

Very good point to bring up, thank you,

I stress this point again however, that a person needs to compare scripture with scripture, in order to define what LOVE is. Not what we think love is, but how God defines what LOVE is.

God defines love by telling us to follow His law. By obeying His Word, we love Christ, and therefore, we truly believe. True these principals seem ambiguous, but that is because the concept is so easy, obey the law of God. That is the bible. To obey the bible, is to understand what LOVE Truly is. To understand love is to believe, to believe in Christ takes faith, Faith in Christ is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Sincereley

Love is doing something for someone without expecting anything in return… In theological terms, it is often synonymous with Charity. And God calls us not only to Love Christ but to Love Each other . And you are not really obeying the Bible. What you really are obeying is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. the Bible is simply a teaching tool put together by the Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to help people understand what God wants from us. And what he wants is Love.

 

[BibleAnswer]

I see the problem here, and that is you are defining LOVE by your terms. As stated previously, we must define LOVE by Gods Word. God defines LOVE by obeying all of his laws put forth in the bible. This encompasses so much more then charity and being kind to people, and is so much more than anything WE as human beings can qualify in our own terms.

Unfortunately, you are mistaken, the bible is the Word, and The Word is Christ. [John 1:14] and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. The only way to God is through His word, the Bible. However you are accurate in that we must obey the Father, who is God, who is Christ, who is the Holy Spirit, that which is the Bible. There is no other way around it.

The bible began in July 1447 BC. This was the third month after the Exodus, when the children of Israel made camp at the base of Mount Sinai. Here God spoke with Moses, and here Moses began to write Gods Testimony, which is the bible. Or Scripture. The year 1447 BC is almost two thousand years before the Catholic Church ever came to be.

 

[Church_Militant]

I see the problem here, and that is you are defining LOVE by your terms. As stated previously, we must define LOVE by Gods Word. God defines LOVE by obeying all of his laws put forth in the bible. This encompasses so much more then charity and being kind to people, and is so much more than anything WE as human beings can qualify in our own terms.

Really? Let’s see what Our Lord has to say about that in His Word, okay?

35 And one of them, a doctor of the law, asking him, tempting him: 36 Master, which is the greatest commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. 38 This is the greatest and the first commandment. 39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.( Mathew 22: 35-40, Mark 1228-31, Luke 10:25-27,

Unfortunately, you are mistaken, the bible is the Word, and The Word is Christ. [John 1:14] and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. The only way to God is through His word, the Bible.

So then you are telling us that you worship the Bible? That’s weird, since I’ve read it many times and never once seen anything in there that even infers such a thing. I doubt you can supply a scripture that supports that, but by all means take a swing at it.

However you are accurate in that we must obey the Father, who is God, who is Christ, who is the Holy Spirit, that which is the Bible. There is no other way around it.

I don’t think you can support that from the Word of God. If you can’t then don’t you think you should question the veracity of those who taught it to you?

The bible began in July 1447 BC. This was the third month after the Exodus, when the children of Israel made camp at the base of Mount Sinai. Here God spoke with Moses, and here Moses began to write Gods Testimony, which is the bible. Or Scripture. The year 1447 BC is almost two thousand years before the Catholic Church ever came to be.

I’d love to see try to you prove that with historical facts.

 

[soflochristmas]

The bible began in July 1447 BC. This was the third month after the Exodus, when the children of Israel made camp at the base of Mount Sinai. Here God spoke with Moses, and here Moses began to write Gods Testimony, which is the bible. Or Scripture. The year 1447 BC is almost two thousand years before the Catholic Church ever came to be.

I think you mean a book of the bible began in 1447 BC, since the word/term bible actually means a collection of numerous books written over thousands of years. The bible itself is a “canon” established by the Church which you reject…but I degress.

 

[Luke65]

Unfortunately, you are mistaken, the bible is the Word, and The Word is Christ. [John 1:14] and the word became flesh and dwelt among us. The only way to God is through His word, the Bible.

Not exactly:

“You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life… I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe… I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day… Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” (John 5:39-40, 6:35-64 NIV)

The bible began in July 1447 BC.

It was earlier than that! You might be interested in this article. God bless.

 

[erikd]

I see the problem here, and that is you are defining LOVE by your terms. As stated previously, we must define LOVE by Gods Word. God defines LOVE by obeying all of his laws put forth in the bible. This encompasses so much more then charity and being kind to people, and is so much more than anything WE as human beings can qualify in our own terms.

Love is seen most clearly in the crucifixion of Christ. Jesus Christ was willing to endure unspeakable tortures and ultimately a death of suffication for you and for me. That is love

13 Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
St. John 15:13

 

[BibleAnswer]

I invite you to return at 6:00, I will be more than happy to respond to these statements.

Secondly, to all that are interested, there is indeed an accurate timeline of creation, and if you wish to see it, please leave me a message or an email. I will be more than happy to give you my work on the creation of time, straight from the Bible, beginning with Genesis.

Time began with creation in 11013BC. The time of the Exodus, was June 1447 BC, when Moses goes up the Mountain Sinai, and speaks with God, This is officially the first written Word of God, made by his own finger, (The two stone tablets) and Moses himself began to write Gods Testimony as it was given to him. 1447 BC, is the very first year of scripture in existence. There was no time before when it is indicated that Gods Testimony was being written.

Next, I would like to bring up, that from June 1447 to April 1445, the children of Israel were camped at the base of Mount Sinai, during this time; God gives directions to Moses on how to build Him a Tabernacle and the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark of the Covenant was made specifically to hold the Testimony of God, and for Moses to sit upon the mercy seat and to judge all matters by the will of God. And for the Ark to proceed the children of Israel throughout there wanderings and travels.

[Ex 25:16] “And you shall put into the ark the Testimony which I will give you.”
[Ex 25:21] “You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you.”
[Ex 25:22] “And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, of all things which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel.”

Now concerning your reference to John 5:39-40, 6:35-64 NIV

These passages are full of metaphor and spiritual language and we must remember that Christ spoke only in parables. A parable is an earthly story with a spiritual meaning.
Now with this understanding, we can define what it means to never go hungry, to never be thirsty, to eat His flesh and drink His blood, this is metaphoric language and doesn’t actually mean to eat skin and drink blood. This is a spiritual picture of how to obtain grace. To understand it, you must study the bible. This isn’t simple language to understand.

Finally, what does it truly mean to “come to Christ” As we compare scripture with scripture, we learn that by following all the laws set forth in the bible, we are obeying God. This is LOVE. We cannot define LOVE, The bible has already done this for us.

 

[Church_Militant]

Right…uh huh…:hypno: Just put down the Bible and step away from the computer keyboard, okay?
[SIGN1]Private interpretation based on Sola Scriptura alert.[/SIGN1]

 

[BibleAnswer]

The bible contains 66 books; 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament

The bible itself begins with CREATION,

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

This is dated as 11013 BC. (Again, for those who are truly interested in an accurate timeline of creation, please contact me, as I would be so very happy email you the excel sheet I did it on. Please before you mock use the opportunity to ask me to give you the timeline. You don’t need to believe me; you can do the work yourself and come to the same conclusions. I digress.)

However, in July 1447 BC, once the children of Israel made it to the base of Mount Sinai, God called Moses…

Ex 19:1 In the third month after the children of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on the same day, they came to the Wilderness of Sinai.
Ex 19:3 And Moses went up to God, and the LORD called to him from the mountain, saying, “Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel:”

Beginning what we now have as the Ten Commandments and the beginning of Gods Testimony or Sacred Scripture.

Ex 24:12 Then the LORD said to Moses, “Come up to Me on the mountain and be there; and I will give you tablets of stone, and the law and commandments which I have written, that you may teach them.”
Ex 31:18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Ex 32:15 And Moses turned and went down from the mountain, and the two tablets of the Testimony were in his hand. The tablets were written on both sides; on the one side and on the other they were written.
Ex 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

Then in April 1445 BC, 2 years later, The Tabernacle is raised.

Ex 40:17 And it came to pass in the first month of the second year, on the first day of the month, that that tabernacle was raised up.

Between April and May, the children of Israel worship God (The Tabernacle) and celebrate Passover. Also, Moses wrote the Book of Leviticus.

Then in May 1445 BC, 1 month later, Moses leads Israel into the Wilderness.

Num10:11 Now it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from above the tabernacle of the Testimony.
Num10:13 So they started out for the first time according to the command of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

Then in February 1407 BC, 38 years later on the border of Canaan, across from Jericho on the other side of the Jordan River, Moses dies at the age of 120 years old.

Deut 1:3 Now it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spoke to the children of Israel according to all that the LORD had given him as commandments to them.
Deut 31:2 And he said to them: “I am on hundred and twenty years old today. I can no longer go out and come in. Also the LORD has said to me, ‘You shall not cross over this Jordan.’”
Deut 34:7 Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor abated.
Deut 34:8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.
Deut 34:9 Now Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands on him; so the children of Israel heeded him, and did as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Israel weeps for Moses for 1 month until March 1407 BC, then Joshua leads Israel across the Jordan into Jericho.

Josh 1:1 After the death of Moses the servant of the LORD, it came to pass that the LORD spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses’ assistant, saying:
Josh 1:2 “Moses My servant is dead. Now therefore, arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, to the land which I am giving to them-the children of Israel.”
Josh 5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people who were men of war, who came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they did not obey the voice of the LORD, to whom the LORD swore that He would not show them the land which the LORD had sworn to their fathers that He would give us, “a land flowing with milk and honey.”

Its takes a few days, but Joshua leads Israel across the Jordan into Jericho, and a few days later is Passover, April 1406 BC, The beginning of a new year, and with before them went the Ark of the covenant, holding the Testimony of God, the scripture which Moses had finished, and the 2 stone tablets containing the 10 commandments.

From 11013 BC – 1407 BC when Moses dies is 9606 years. Moses had wisdom through God, God told Moses what needed to be written, and Moses wrote over the course of 40 years, a timeline of events spanning 9606 years.

Now this is an accurate timeline, and as we see 1447BC – 95AD is 1542 years. So nobody can dispute the fact that the bible was written over the course of 1542 years. And nobody can dispute the fact that there simply was no church, any God fearing church around in 1447 BC. The Bible was not written for people going to church, the bible was written for the children of God, the Elect. The church was a means of spreading the Gospel. Nobody can dispute that either, is says clearly in:

Acts 1:8 “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

 

[onenow1]

The bible contains 66 books; 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament

Hi, BA Here’s what I think .

This is what the fundamentalists call the 7 books in Catholic Bibles that protestant Bibles do not have. Catholics call them ‘Deuterocanonicals’. They are, Baruch, Judith, Sirach, Tobit, Wisdom, and 1 and 2 Maccabees. They also include parts of Daniel and Esther. There are many other books, called Apocrypha, by Catholics that are not considered inspired. I believe Protestants merely put those 7 books in the same pot and called them all Apocrypha.

The Problem…

Non Catholics insist that the ‘Council of Trent’ added those seven books to bring the total number of books to 73. They point to the fact that the ‘Council of Jamnia’ removed those books from the Bible in 90-95 A.D., so they were never in the ‘Bible’ from that date on.

The Solution…

Absolutely right, for the second part of the problem. The ‘Council of Jamnia’ did indeed remove those 7 books. The fact of the matter is that Jamnia was not a Christian council, but a Jewish one, called specifically to counter Christianity. In keeping with their practice of presenting only half truths, the non-Catholic detractors fail to mention that fact. The Apostles and Christians in general, used the Greek’Septuagint’, also called LXX, as their Bible in the first century. This upset the Jews, so they decided to call a council to deal with the matter. Keep in mind that the Jewish temple was completely destroyed by the Romans in 70 A.D., and the Jewish priests were killed. Now they were fearful that Christianity would overtake them. The Septuagint is the Old Testament translation into Greek from Hebrew, which the Jews completed at Alexandria in the second century B.C., and it had all 46 books including the Deuterocanonicals. The Jews decided to revise the canon of the Old Testament and they wanted to remove references that would be useful to Christians.

They set up 4 criteria that all books had to meet in order to be included.

1. The books had to conform to the Pentateuch (the first 5 books).
2. The books had to be written in Hebrew.
3. The books had to be written in Palestine.
4. The books had to be written before 400 B.C…

The seven books did not meet all 4 criteria set up by the Jews…

Baruch was not written in Palestine. Disqualified by reason 3.

Sirach and 1Maccabees were written after 400 B.C… Disqualified by reason 4.

Tobit and parts of Daniel and Esther were written in Aramaic and outside of Palestine.
Disqualified by reasons 2 and 3.

Judith was written in Aramaic. Disqualified by reason 2.

Wisdom was written in Greek. Disqualified by reason 2.

2Maccabees was written after 400 B.C. and in Greek. Disqualified by reasons 2 and 4.

Christians continued to use the Septuagint. In 397 the Old Testament canon containing all 46 books was formalized along with the 27 inspired books of the New Testament at the Council of Carthage. St. Jerome completed a Latin translation of the entire Bible in 405, called the ‘Vulgate’ which can still be found today. It always had all 73 books. All Christian Bibles for the next 1100 years had all 73 books. Martin Luther, at about 1521 decided to remove the 7 Deuterocanonicals from the Old Testament and put them in an appendix, because they had teachings of the Catholic Church which he rejected, such as Purgatory. He used as an excuse, that they were already removed at Jamnia, and never should have been considered as inspired. Yes, but don’t forget that the Jews did it at Jamnia, not the Christians. On Luther’s own initiative, he removed 7 books that had been in use from before the first day of Christianity. Let me ask you, if they were “added” at the Council of Trent in 1545, how could Luther have removed them some 20 years earlier if they weren’t there?

The Council of Trent was called in 1545 in response to the protestant reformation. One of the things they accomplished at Trent was a “reaffirmation that the 7 disputed books were indeed inspired and would continue to be included in the canon of the Old Testament”. They did not add them. They merely reconfirmed that they should be there. All Christian Bibles for the first 1500 years of Christianity had 46 books in the Old Testament, and all Catholic Bibles today continue to have them. I have noticed that even some King James Bibles now have them. Why is this?

History of the canons of the Old Testament can be confirmed by checking the records of the Councils of Hippo, Carthage, and Trent. They are readily available, as is St. Jerome’s Latin Vulgate and the Septuagint.

Christianity was in effect for between 35-65 years before the Jewish Council of Jamnia was called. As such, the Jewish Council had absolutely no authority whatsoever over Christianity. Suppose that next month of this year, the Jews decided to call a council in order to remove Isaiah and Jeremiah from the Old Testament and then voted to do it. Would Protestants also remove these books from the King James bible? It would seem they have already set a precedent. Why do Protestants accept the ruling of the Jewish Council of Jamnia, and at the same time reject the ruling of the Christian Council of Carthage regarding the Old Testament canon? Further still, why do they accept the canon of the New Testament which was decided at the same Christian Council? From The Catholic Treasure Chest. BY : B Stanley.

Peace,and God Bless onenow1

 

[SFH]

I am wondering what the Catholic response is when Protestants site John 3:16(“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”) in support of their “saved by faith alone” belief.

Catholic Response: Someone who claims to believe in Jesus Christ, but doesn’t put his money where his mouth is, doesn’t really believe in Him. Do what Jesus Christ commanded you to do (i.e., feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the sorrowful, etc.); that is how you prove you believe in Him.

 

[BibleAnswer]

Onenow1:

Fascinating response, Thank you for the information, I am always looking to learn and can be humbled.

I am going to study this a bit more, thanks for the direction.

However, nothing you said directly relates to anything in the bible. Really, we have here a bunch of information concerning councils of church members and men of power long ago. Where is the information from the bible? That is what concerns me; the truth is from the bible. It seems that many people get concerned over the technical information of councils and what a pope said, and how this document and that document is able to accurately translate the meaning of something, for us the layman, divinely inspired by some man in power somewhere. But I tell you, that should not be the case. We are each of us, in communication with God, when we read His word. We can understand for ourselves the truth through prayer and study, and there is only ONE truth, without being clouded by a preconceived doctrine. I mean I just spread out a fascinating timeline and pertinent information relating to what I was talking about. And it can’t be reputed because it is straight from the bible. However a quick and easy response is to point to some technical scenario that takes away from the meaning and our understanding of the Gospel. It seems that the focus should be on the bible, and the information contained therein.

When it comes down to it, if a person believes the Word of God is true, then they believe in God. IF a person believes in God, then they have to believe that God is in control. If God is in control, then we can rejoice in the fact that He gave us His perfect Word, and it is exactly as He meant it to be. If we don’t believe this, then we are a hypocrite, there is no other way about it. If you believe that somehow men, could somehow ruin the bible, or make subtle changes, or add or delete or decide on this book or that, without it being in Gods control, then you are a hypocrite. If you have any sort of argument about the authority of the bible, then you are a hypocrite. I don’t understand the arguments presented concerning the authority of the bible. If you believe in God, you cannot dispute the bible, you can’t. This is called faith. This is a simple test, if you pass this test, then you’re on the right track, if you fail this test, if even the tiniest notion of the bible not being whole and complete crosses your mind, then that doubt is your downfall.

We should be concerned with the information contained inside the bible. Each and every parable is there ready for us to understand. Each and every word, The Old and New is the Word of God, The Word is Christ, and Christ only spoke in parables. The whole bible is a parable, an earthly story with spiritual meaning. It can be understood, and once you connect the dots, you rejoice, because you found truth.

 

[una_fides]

To understand John 3:16, you must compare scripture with scripture. We always hear this, however it all depends on what exactly you are comparing. In John 3:16 it is clearly stated “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.”

However the misinterpretation comes when we try to define what BELIEVING truly is. This is when we compare scripture with scripture, trying to define what it means to believe in Christ.

It is true that many people in this world believe, does this guarantee salvation, NO. Why? You ask. Well we must first understand that believing, as defined in the bible, *Unfortunately I don’t have my bible in front of me. As stated by God, is to follow all of His laws, meaning the Bible. The Bible is Gods law book, and for us to truly love Him, and worship Him, we must follow His doctrine. Once a person truly understands what the Bible is saying, they can move on from the MILK of the Word and move on to the MEAT of the word. Meaning the ability to get past certain principals and to continue to study and learn more, and grow in grace.

God expects us to continue our study, and to learn new things, the result of a person trying to follow the Word, trying to be faithful to the Word, is faith; faith that was put in us by the Holy Spirit; faith that was given to us by Christ. This faith is nothing that was accomplished by us, but Christ put His faith in us.

This is what it means by believing. To follow all of His laws set forth in the Bible. If a person decides to change a fundamental principal, or decides that this is ok in the bible, but that isn’t, he is on the wrong path, and is not truly believing in the Word. Thus this verse John 3:16 will have no meaning and not apply to you.

If we follow the Bible then we would also follow the Church that gave the Bible to us for without her, we would not even know to call it a Bible, we would not even know which books should be included in it, and we would not know how to interpret it.
“Whoever does not want to have the Church as mother will not have God as Father” (St. Augustine).

 

[erikd]

Onenow1:

Fascinating response, Thank you for the information, I am always looking to learn and can be humbled.

Bible Answer:

Are you from, or a listener of, one of the “Bible Answer Man” radio programs? If we know a little about your background, it may help in our dialogue.

Also, the importance of knowing about the councils of the past is directly related to knowing our Bible, on which you have put a great emphasis. You see, if you know that the Bible should have 73 Books, not 66 Books, you should be seeing a red flag come up because the importance of what is contained within the pages of Scripture is incomplete with a 66 Book Bible. If you care about what is inside, you should know how it came about from the outside. This will assist you in your studies enormously. Onenow1 did a great job of summarizing how the Bible was put together and how the Deuterocanonical Books fit in. More information is available, even on this very website. If you wanted to know more about the 7 Books your Bible is missing, there is plenty of information on a faith tract called “The Old Testament Canon” catholic.com/library/Old_Testament_Canon.asp
Also, since you’ve taken it upon yourself to interpret Scripture, may I suggest the following article, also available from Catholic.com, entitled “What’s Your Authority?”
catholic.com/library/What_Your_Authority.asp
Look forward to talking to you again in the near future.

 

[BibleAnswer]

I was a part of the church. Eventually I began to see it become more and more apostate. I began to see too many contradictions, to many issues arising; too many doctrines explaining other doctrines.

Then I decided to figure out the time line of the bible myself as a jumping off point, as a study tool. I decided that I was not satisfied with what anybody has ever told me, and instead of taking their word for it, I began to study on my own. I researched Ussa’s timeline and then began at the Book of Genesis and worked my down. During the course of my study, many truths were opened up to me, Truths I was never taught, or incorrectly taught.

The first thing that immediately caught my attention was how everything seemed to connect, and fit together in the bible. There was no inconsistency at all. I soon discovered that yes, time can be connected and indeed it comes to 11013 BC. (Ask and I’ll show you)

So I was amazed because the church has no official stance on the subject. At one time they say the creation could be million if not billions of years old, that the first days were not 24 hours but indeed millennium or infinity between the days. That the story is allegory and means something other than what it means. Then they adapt the timeline of Ussa and agree on an earth that is 6000 years old. Then they repudiate that, and finish off with a stance of having no stance, of being of the accord that the church has yet to officially doctrinate creation, so why ask or try to figure it out. That didn’t sit with me; I mean I am reasonably intelligent. Why should I be happy with what a priest tells me about creation? I can simply look for myself. Have any of you. Again, did anybody ever deem to do the research themselves, my judgment is no, because if they did, Then they would see what I and others see.

Yet still, to this day, there is no doctrine, no established truth concerning Genesis and creation. This should not be. The bible has been in existence for well over 1900 years. This all points to the fact that the church, who is my teacher, never got passed the Milk of the Word, they never came to the Meat of the Scripture. They never grew in grace. If the church grew in grace, they would teach me that the earth was created in 11013 BC. (Ask and I’ll show you)

Next the parable of the Wheat and the Tares, this is a very important parable that Jesus explicitly explains. The Wheat is the true believers, the Tares are those who believe they are saved, yet are not. The parable of the wheat and tares tell us that they are indistinguishable from one another. This is why in a church you can have true believers, the wheat, and those who are truly not saved, the tares and not be able to tell who is saved and who is not. Because God is the only person who can discern a heart, so understanding that in a church, there is wheat and tares, I began to see too many tares. Too many hypocrites. I didn’t like it very much, so I picked up my own bible, and went to work.

I have just given a bit about who I am, and where I am coming from in all of this. My only desire is to seek truth and learn, as is with all of you. I thank you for your instruction.

You see, even I do not sit with preconceived doctrine I have always been taught. If you present something interesting, then I want to know about it. I will correct my opinion and be humbled that I have learned something. I will never disregard what somebody says because I already know the answer. As I hope you all do to. We must understand that the bible is made for proof, reproof and correction. We always learn something new. Believe me the bible is not decoded, and the Church does not have all the answers. They may have a doctrine that explains something, but does it follow the principle of Christ spoke in parables, and to compare scripture with scripture. And if it does, then tell me how every religion has something different to say about the same thing. There should be only one truth. There is only one bible, and the bible tells us one truth. How can we have so many interpretations of the same thing? This was a problem for me, so I decided to check the proof, to reproof, and understand the correction.

Sincerely.