How do Catholics answer to John 3: 16?

[paul_c]

BibleAnswer,
I’ll bite. How did you get that the world was created in 11013 BC?

And how did you come the the conclusion that the Exodus was in 1447 BC? Most people date it at around 1200-1250 BC.

I’ve read Genesis many, many times and I am shocked that you think you can discern a date with such precision. I will be shocked if you can produce anything directly out of scripture without making some assumptions that are not directly from scripture. But I am open to see what you have come up with.

On a more fundamental level, though, because the dating of the events are less important than what they mean, I am interested in understanding how exactly you are so confident that you individually can discern meaning from the Bible better than the Catholic Church, which has many advantages you don’t have. These include:

• a direct line of teaching back to the apostles with the original insight from the Authors of the new testament
• Literally millions of trained theologians and priest working on the issues for 2000 years, including some of the most intelligent men who ever lived (Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, etc).
• 2000

years of questions from skeptics to fine tune the responses.

When you come up with a different Biblical interpretation than the Catholic Chruch, or even someone else, do you just automatically assume you are the one who has it right, or do you try to understand why someone else sees it differently than you do, considering that they may have additional insight or knowledge that you don’t have?

 

[BibleAnswer]

Not only that, but the Flood was in May 4990BC. The tower of babel was in 3153-2914 BC, when God divides the continents and confuses mans language, Gods covenant with Abraham was in 2068 BC, Moses was born in 1527 BC, The exodus was 1447 BC, and Joshua leads Israel to Canaan in 1407 BC. A lot of valuable and interesting information, that has altogether been mis interpreted.

The short answer is NO, I must approach the Word with humility and a person cannot let pride cloud there understanding. Because a person has a preconcieved idea, and then somebody else presents valid arguments to the contrary, I am not going to rebuke them outright, Because what if they have something to teach, then i would be left ignorant. This must be all of our attitudes.

And 2000 years of inacurate information, still makes it inacurate. And how can I presume to say it is anaccurate, because I have reached an understanding that is totally contrary to what i have always, always always always been taught by my humble church. And it is so plain as day written in the Bible. so much information that connects in a fantastic way. It just took a little work and prayer and good fortune

 

[Garland]

BAM, I guess that I am to disregard 2000 years of leadership, and The Lords promise that the gates of hell would fail to destroy her, " THE CHURCH" , and quickly follow you to the "TRUTH". I think joseph smith, martin luther, henry vII, jim jones, j. calvin etc etc etc etc etc etc have beaten you to the punch. Well after at least 2 seconds of deep thought, I think Ill stay with the Church. Have a nice life, and when you come to the end of it I hope the bible brings you comfort. His will be done Garland

 

[BibleAnswer]

The Lord`s promise that the gates of hell would fail to destroy her, " THE CHURCH"

WRONG!!!

Ok, well sense you seek truth, like the rest of us, allow me help you out with that parable. The lords promise that the gates of hell shall not prevail, is a parable. It can be read literally, and you can come to a conclusion that is all togther in accurate, and grace will not be yours, because you are not growing in the WORD, However, through careful study, you come to realize, that what God is talking about, would be the The Spiritual Church, the Church that every true believer belongs to in spirit through the holy spirit. This is not talking about an actual church, for that would make no sense, for it isn’t church that is salvation, it is Gods word. Gods word is the Bible. Once you understand parables like this, it reads contrary to any teaching you were taught. The gates of hell is a metaphor for death. the wages of sin is death, death and hell shall not prevail means that every true believer that seeks the LORD and comes to become a true child of God, an elect, then death and hell, have no power over your spiritual salvation. Death shall not be the end of you, your spirit will go on.

And how can we know that this is talking about spiritual church, and not actual church, because of the parable of the wheat and tares. The wheat are the true believers, the saved. The tares are those who believe they are saved, yet are not. They are chaff, and bundled up and burned away, so that only the wheat is left. This parable represents that in a local church, any church, there are true believers, mixed in with those who are not. and nobody can discern who is who because only God can understand you heart. So then this got me thinking, is it possible that my priest, pastur or deacon is a TARE. Can it be that even they can be Tares, therfore, a Tare does not seek after the true meaning of the gospel, a tare does not devote hours and hours of study to the word. No, a tare must adhere to the doctrine of the church, they must uphold those ideas first and foremost. The bible then becomes secondary. If this is the case, then I do not wish to be taught by a Tare, I will seek out the wheat, or by Gods grace, will come to understand on my own.

This is what that parable means, it has nothing to do with a congregation or an actualy brick and mortar church.

You must understand Christ spoke in parables, and to compare scripture with scripture.

 

[Garland]

BAM As usual it only means what you say it means. all others are wrong except you. I imagine the crowds are awful lined up at you gate to join you, soooooooo, don`t hold me a place. still, have a nice life. HIS will be done. Garland

 

[BibleAnswer]

It is apparent that you have never studied the bible for yourself with and eye for truth and understanding. If you did, or if you were truly interested, then you would challenge these idea on your own to see if there is truth to them, rather than just rebuking me out right. I dont see the grace in that, or the desire to learn.

The bible has only one message, and only one truth. People should not come to different conclusion.

Now after i just explained two parables to you, accurately, you still seem fit to mock me, which in actuality you are mocking the bible. sense that is where it comes from.

If those parables do not mean what i just explained them to be, then please enlighten us, rather than dusting me off with reproach. This is only going to lead to your own ignorance of understanding.

 

[davidv]

It is apparent that you have never studied the bible for yourself with and eye for truth and understanding. If you did, or if you were truly interested, then you would challenge these idea on your own to see if there is truth to them, rather than just rebuking me out right. I dont see the grace in that, or the desire to learn.

This seem very judgemental to me. Do you know anything the poster study of scripture?

The bible has only one message, and only one truth. People should not come to different conclusion.

But, they do!! Why is that?

Now after i just explained two parables to you, accurately, you still seem fit to mock me, which in actuality you are mocking the bible. sense that is where it comes from.

The thing being mocked, if anything, is your interpretation, not the Bible itself. I would caution that mocking will not be very effective, however.

If those parables do not mean what i just explained them to be, then please enlighten us, rather than dusting me off with reproach. This is only going to lead to your own ignorance of understanding.

Please see multiple posts already presented in this thread.

 

[onenow1]

QUOTE=BibleAnswer However, nothing you said directly relates to anything in the bible. Really, we have here a bunch of information concerning councils of church members and men of power long ago. Where is the information from the bible?

Quote= onenow1,Not quite BA. Example: That John 10:22 speaks of the “Feast of the Dedication”, and that no non-Catholic can explain what the meaning of it is by using there bible alone.

I believe the feast of the dedication, is otherwise known as Hanukkah, and can be found only in 1Maccabees 4:52-61, and 2Maccabees 10:1-8, two books which some have removed from there Bible.:bigyikes:

Knowledgeable Catholics have no problem explaining what the feast represents. others will never understand the meaning of that verse since “they cannot find it in their Bible”, that is, unless they abandon bible only mind set.

BA the above verses should help you a little.

Peace, onenow1 Snack time

 

[Garland]

BAM, sinnce I only have your word that you are right I chose to not believe you. The church was here 400 years without a new testament to go by so I guess all those that lived and died in that time frame are lost since they had no bible to go by. Jesus founded a visible church. He did NOT write any thing down. He did NOT tell anyone to write anything down. The church you so easly brush off gave the world the bible, and you think your inturpitation is more correct than 2000 yrs. of people much smarter than you, who. loved and grew the CHURCH. Its the same tripe put out my martin luther and a miriad of other false prophets who have the "TRUTH" denied to us lessor human beings and you are out to sew your NEW brand of poison,to further divide the BODY of CHRIST. There is one spirit being who is very happy you are doing this and it aint GOD. I used " aint" to give you a feel good moment, as you can now say "DUMB HILLBILLY", cant use good english. I was a protestant minister for many years so I know all about your type and I have read the entire bible many times. I only understood it in the light of the Catholic Church who wrote it and unity is what it teaches. When I stand before GOD I will claim its promises and if I am denied then so be it. I will NOT devide the body of CHRIST any more than it is already devided by the likes of you with your"New Revelation". I will pray for you as I do all those who become smarter than anyone else and think GOD changes his mind every time someone reads the bible. HIS will be done. Garland

 

[BibleAnswer]

[John 10:22] Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
I can explain this, because the bible is spiritual, and in the bible we learn that Feasts are tied in with spiritual events. Feasts are also benchmarks for seasons and time, one of Gods proofs to connect time together, to create an accurate timeline. (ask me and Ill show you my work)

For example
[Ex 12:1] Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying,
[Ex 12:2] “This month shall be your beginning of months; it shall be the first month of the year to you”

The rest of the chapter is dealing with instructions for Passover. This was the very first Passover, it happened during the 10th plague, the death of all first born. Death passed over the house of those who smeared blood on their door. This was in April, the day after the Passover, the fifteenth day, Moses leads Israel out from Egypt, beginning the Exodus.

Passover is April
Pentecost is June
Tabernacles is Dec.

These are the Three major feasts, for which all males of Israel were required to travel to the Temple in Jerusalem.

These are the only three feasts in the Bible, which the Bible is concerned about. How do I know? Because I have been studying, and these three feasts are benchmarks for tracking time on a calendar, (ask me and Ill show you my work) besides their actual significance and the celebrations.

The Feast of Dedication only has the one reference because it is an unimportant holiday that has nothing to do with anything spiritual. It is a Jewish custom, steeped in tradition, which is not spiritual in the least. It has a cool story, however it has nothing to do with anything relating to salvation.

 

[BibleAnswer]

You asked about my authority, well here it is, it is the Word. Unless you can actively have a desire to seek this sort of information out, then you would never be the wiser to it, you would merrily go along with what you were taught. You can either accept what the bible has to say, or you can reject it. This is what it means to compare scripture to scripture, and this is the only way to read the bible.

[Is 28:9] “Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts?

[Is 28:10] For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”

[Psalm 119:40-48] Behold, I long for Your precepts; Revive me in Your righteousness. Let Your mercies come also to me, O LORD- Your salvation according to Your word. So shall I have an answer to him who reproaches me, For I trust in Your word. And take not the word of truth utterly out of my mouth, For I have hoped in Your ordinances. So shall I keep Your law continually, Forever and ever. And I will walk at liberty For I seek Your precepts. I will speak of Your testimonies also before kings, and will not be ashamed. And I will delight myself in Your commandments, Which I love. My hands also I will lift up to Your commandments, which I love, and I will meditate on Your statutes.

[Psalm 119:99-104] I have more understanding than all my teachers, for Your testimonies are my meditation. I understand more than the ancients, because I keep Your precepts. I have restrained my feet from every evil way, that I may keep Your word. I have not departed from Your judgments, for You Yourself have taught me. How sweet are Your words to my taste, sweeter than honey to my mouth! Through Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way.

[Psalm 119 :117-120] Hold me up, and I shall be safe, and I shall observe Your statutes continually. You reject all those who stray from Your statutes, For their deceit is falsehood. You put away all the wicked of the earth like dross; Therefore I love Your testimonies. My flesh trembles for fear of You, And I am afraid of Your judgments.

[Acts 17:11] These were more fair minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

[1 Ptr 2:2] As newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby.

[2Tim 2:15] Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

[2Tim 3:14-17] But as for you, continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Now for me to come to the understanding I have come to, I am told through Gods word the bible, to do the following:

[1Tim 4:6-7] If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished in the words of faith and of the good doctrine which you have carefully followed. But reject profane and old wives fables, and exercise yourself rather to godliness

[2 Tim 4:2] Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

[2Tim 4:5] But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

However the hard reality of today is:

[2Tim 3:1] But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come,

[2Tim 3:5] Having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

[2Tim 3:7] Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

[2Tim 4:3-4] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

 

[Luke65]

You asked about my authority, well here it is, it is the Word.

The Word: “Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account.” (Hebrews 13:17)

Its easy if you try.

 

[BibleAnswer]

[Heb 13:17] Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

It helps if you give the whole verse. Now, who is it that rules over us, that would be our government and our leaders, like a mayor, or a president. We are commanded to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars, and this includes following the law of the land. That is a law given to Gods children, now that we know God commands us to obey that law, there should be no rationalizing to the law. If we are commanded to do something, By God, by our government, by the laws which this country adheres to, if it is contrary to a persons understanding of moral law, then it wouldn’t be your soul on the line, being held accountable, it would be our leaders who commanded us to do something.

This has nothing to do with obeying the church that rules over us because they watch over our souls. that is total nonsense. the church has no power to save a soul or to condemn a soul. The Churches function was to spread the word and preach the gospel.

And secondly, how can you make a point, when you don’t understand your reference. I hope i was able to help you understand this passage.

 

[paul_c]

[Heb 13:17] Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

It helps if you give the whole verse. Now, who is it that rules over us, that would be our government and our leaders, like a mayor, or a president. We are commanded to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars, and this includes following the law of the land. That is a law given to Gods children, now that we know God commands us to obey that law, there should be no rationalizing to the law. If we are commanded to do something, By God, by our government, by the laws which this country adheres to, if it is contrary to a persons understanding of moral law, then it wouldn’t be your soul on the line, being held accountable, it would be our leaders who commanded us to do something.

This has nothing to do with obeying the church that rules over us because they watch over our souls. that is total nonsense. the church has no power to save a soul or to condemn a soul. The Churches function was to spread the word and preach the gospel.

And secondly, how can you make a point, when you don’t understand your reference. I hope i was able to help you understand this passage.

Zach,
I absolutely applaud your enthusiasm. You are spending a great deal of time trying to understand the word of God and that speaks highly of you. The Spirit seems to be calling you and it has led you here, where you will get the Catholic Answers to your questions. You see, you don’t need to search for the truths of salvation on your own. That is why Jesus instituted the Catholic Church, to pass on the truths he taught the apostles. It is so easy to get confused when you go it on your own.

For emphasis that this is true, let’s use your own words. How can you make a point when you don’t understand your reference. Hebrews 13-17 is all about the church. You expanded the reading to cover the whole verse, you should have expanded it to cover the entire paragraph. Let’s look at what it says in total:

7 Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teaching. It is good to have our hearts strengthened by grace and not by foods, which do not benefit those who live by them.
10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat.
11 The bodies of the animals whose blood the high priest brings into the sanctuary as a sin offering are burned outside the camp.
12 Therefore, Jesus also suffered outside the gate, to consecrate the people by his own blood.
13 Let us then go to him outside the camp, bearing the reproach that he bore.
14 For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the one that is to come.
15 Through him (then) let us continually offer God a sacrifice of praise, that is, the fruit of lips that confess his name.
16 Do not neglect to do good and to share what you have; God is pleased by sacrifices of that kind.
17 Obey your leaders and defer to them, for they keep watch over you and will have to give an account, that they may fulfill their task with joy and not with sorrow, for that would be of no advantage to you.

So you see, the leaders referenced in Hebrews 13-17 are the same leaders referenced in 13-7, and they are the ones that spoke the word of God to you. That would be the Apostles and their successors who are the bishops of the church. And I agree thtat the church can not save or condemn on its own and that its function is to hand down the truths of the Gospel. Judgement is reserved for Jesus, but remember the Church through St. Peter was given the power to Bind and Loose (Matthew 16: 16-19) and the Apostles given the power to forgive sins.

Zach, every thing in the Bible is true and there is sufficient truth in it to drive salvation. BUT, you need to understand it and that is not easy on your own. We all have our inate biases and blind spots, and without help, those color our interpretation of what we read. That’s why two people, equally sincere and equally convinced that they are being led by the Holy Spirit, can come up with radically different views of what it takes to be saved. Thats why it is necessary to go back to the Apostolic Church for clarification on what was really meant by scripture. Once you understand Catholic Doctrine fully, you can read scripture in the way that it was meant to be understood. This requires trust, humility and reason. Trust that the Catholic Church has no motivation to stear you wrong. Humility to accept the teachings and reason to understand how they apply to you.

At one time, I too thought I knew better than the Church, but through the grace of God, I gradually came to understand that I just didn’t have all the necessary information on my own to come to the correct conclusions. I learned that when I thought the Catholic Chruch’s position was wrong, what was actually the case, was I didn’t understand the issue well enough. I began to look more deeply at the reasons that the Catholic church taught what it taught and I found out time and time again that there was incredible depth and wisdom behind every doctrine and that it was readily spelled out for anyone who cared to learn. As I became more versed in Catholic Doctrine, I found that my disagreements totally melted away.

Be aware that the Spirit leads many to the Church through this forum. If you open your heart and your mind to what is being taught here, the truth will set you free. Just be open to where the spirit is taking you…

Take Care. paul

 

[una_fides]

You asked about my authority, well here it is, it is the Word. Unless you can actively have a desire to seek this sort of information out, then you would never be the wiser to it, you would merrily go along with what you were taught. You can either accept what the bible has to say, or you can reject it. This is what it means to compare scripture to scripture, and this is the only way to read the bible.

Acts 8:26-39 Then the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, “Get up and head south on the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza, the desert route.” So he got up and set out. Now there was an Ethiopian eunuch, a court official of the Candace, that is, the queen of the Ethiopians, in charge of her entire treasury, who had come to Jerusalem to worship, and was returning home. Seated in his chariot, he was reading the prophet Isaiah. The Spirit said to Philip, “Go and join up with that chariot.” Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied,** “How can I, unless someone instructs me?”** So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him. This was the scripture passage he was reading: “Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter, and as a lamb before its shearer is silent, so he opened not his mouth. In [his] humiliation justice was denied him. Who will tell of his posterity? For his life is taken from the earth.” Then the eunuch said to Philip in reply, “I beg you, about whom is the prophet saying this? About himself, or about someone else?” Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him. As they traveled along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look, there is water. What is to prevent my being baptized?” Then he ordered the chariot to stop, and Philip and the eunuch both went down into the water, and he baptized him. When they came out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord snatched Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but continued on his way rejoicing.

1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Your own Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth, and this fact makes sense since the Bible itself came from her and you would not know to call it a Bible without the Church and her authority. If you believe that the Holy Spirit guided the Church to compile the canon, then you should also rely on her other understandings of the same Scriptures as well as her authority to which the Scriptures and the Church Fathers attest. Sola Verbum Dei (only the Word of God) both the written Tradition (Scripture) and the Oral Tradition handed down and explained through the heirarchy and preserved by the same Holy Spirit that preserved Scripture.

2 Thes 2:15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

Gal. 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have [ORALLY] preached to you [aka oral Tradition], let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

Mat 18:17-18 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

 

[una_fides]

[Heb 13:17] Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

It helps if you give the whole verse. Now, who is it that rules over us, that would be our government and our leaders, like a mayor, or a president. We are commanded to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars, and this includes following the law of the land.
…
This has nothing to do with obeying the church that rules over us because they watch over our souls. …

Acts 20:28 Take heed to yourselves and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own blood.

1 Thes 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them who labour among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you.

1Pet. 5:5 Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.”

– “He hath loved the people, all the saints are in his hand: and they that approach to his feet, shall receive of his doctrine” (Deut 33:3).

– It was pride that changed angels into devils; it is humility that makes men as angels (Saint Augustine).

 

[onenow1]

[John 10:22] Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.
I can explain this, because the bible is spiritual, and in the bible we learn that Feasts are tied in with spiritual events. Feasts are also benchmarks for seasons and time, one of Gods proofs to connect time together, to create an accurate timeline. (ask me and Ill show you my work)

Quote=onenow1. You cannot find the feast of the dedication in the passages you quoted. Nice try ! :nope:

BA you might want to study a little more of God given secular history.

Such as this BA: Martin Luther, the first Protestant, who was the person who founded the man made doctrine of Sola Scriptura, expressed harsh words about it just a few years later, after he had surveyed the damage it had caused?

"This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads.

No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet." Martin Luther…
De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.

“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” Martin Luther…
Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.

Your posts seem to reflect M Luther’s thoughts BA :sad_yes:

Peace,onenow1, Donut time

 

[teachccd]

And secondly, how can you make a point, when you don’t understand your reference. I hope i was able to help you understand this passage.

Bible Answer, how do you know that your bible is inspired? Because it says so?? So does the Koran and the Book of Mormon. How can you convince me that the Bible should be followed and not the book of Mormon or the Koran? What makes the writing in one book known to be inspired and not the writings of the others? If you answer faith, well then I remain perplexed since the Mormons call it a “burning in the bosom” and Islam also relies on their faith in Allah. How can we Christians be so sure? How do you know that these 66 or whatever number of books are truly inspired and no other writings are? I have my answer do you??? …teachccd

 

[Luke65]

Hebrews 13-17 is all about the church.

Thanks, Paul. I get angry when I get accused of taking Scripture out of context! I’m glad you got there first. The only thing I would add is “they keep watch over your souls” (a word that NIV conveniently leaves out - I quoted NASB).

 

[Church_Militant]

It is apparent that you have never studied the bible for yourself with and eye for truth and understanding. If you did, or if you were truly interested, then you would challenge these idea on your own to see if there is truth to them, rather than just rebuking me out right. I dont see the grace in that, or the desire to learn.

I did and that is precisely why I am a Catholic.

The bible has only one message, and only one truth. People should not come to different conclusion.

A good point and that causes me to ask why it is that your own teachings seem not to be found in the writings of the early church? We have a wealth of documents from the early church and none of them agree with you.

Are you alleging that everyone except you is apostate?

Now after i just explained two parables to you, accurately, you still seem fit to mock me, which in actuality you are mocking the bible. sense that is where it comes from.

Yet your explanantions show glaring departures from the rest of the New Testament. This causes most objective readers to reject it in favor of the straight sense of the Word of God.

If those parables do not mean what i just explained them to be, then please enlighten us, rather than dusting me off with reproach.

Okay…

Originally Posted by BibleAnswer forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
[Heb 13:17] Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

The problem here is that this is referring to those who are the leaders in the Church and not the government of the day. If it meant governments, then, according to your errant teaching they would have been duty bound to renounce their faith and live as pagans because that is why so many of us were martyred. We refused. Example: The Martyrdom of Polycarp*

It helps if you give the whole verse. Now, who is it that rules over us, that would be our government and our leaders, like a mayor, or a president. We are commanded to render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars, and this includes following the law of the land. That is a law given to Gods children, now that we know God commands us to obey that law, there should be no rationalizing to the law. If we are commanded to do something, By God, by our government, by the laws which this country adheres to, if it is contrary to a persons understanding of moral law, then it wouldn’t be your soul on the line, being held accountable, it would be our leaders who commanded us to do something.

Though the Bible teaches that governments and leaders face a serious judgment from God for so much of what they do in passages like the following.
“*Moreover I saw under the sun that in the place of justice, even there was wickedness, and in the place of righteousness, even there was wickedness.” (Ecclesiates 3:16)

1] Listen therefore, O kings, and understand;
learn, O judges of the ends of the earth.
2] Give ear, you that rule over multitudes,
and boast of many nations.
3] For your dominion was given you from the Lord,
and your sovereignty from the Most High,
who will search out your works and inquire into your plans.
4] Because as servants of his kingdom you did not rule rightly,
nor keep the law,
nor walk according to the purpose of God,
5] he will come upon you terribly and swiftly,
because severe judgment falls on those in high places.
6] For the lowliest man may be pardoned in mercy,
but mighty men will be mightily tested.
7] For the Lord of all will not stand in awe of any one,
nor show deference to greatness;
because he himself made both small and great,
and he takes thought for all alike.
8] But a strict inquiry is in store for the mighty.
9] To you then, O monarchs, my words are directed,
that you may learn wisdom and not transgress.
10] For they will be made holy who observe holy things in holiness,
and those who have been taught them will find a defense.
11] Therefore set your desire on my words;
long for them, and you will be instructed. (Wisdom 6)

This has nothing to do with obeying the church that rules over us because they watch over our souls. that is total nonsense.

Really? *Let’s see what the New Testament says about that. *“The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”

the church has no power to save a soul or to condemn a soul.

*Again…here you contradict the plain teachings o the New Testament, because it says, "*21] Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”
22] And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
23] If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

That very clearly shows that the New Testament tells that the Church does indeed have that capacity and is charged with that mission by Our Lord Himself.

The Churches function was to spread the word and preach the gospel.

But not it’s only function, as Matthew 25:31-46 clearly tells us.