How do Catholics define "poor"

  • Thread starter Thread starter dean24us
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I think it’s based on whether you have an iPhone or not.
Then I guess i"m poor. And all this time I just thought I had no use for one… The United Nations defines “rich” as “having more than you need to survive TODAY”. On any given day, there are many millions of people who are homeless, and thousands of children starving to death, and we sit around and argue semantics…
 
I think it’s based on whether you have an iPhone or not.
This is a good point. It’s strange to see how many people in my country (Canada) classify themselves as ‘poor’ if they don’t have the latest technology, entertainment, vices, etc. I can’t even tell you how often I’ve heard neighbors, friends, coworkers etc make statements like “I’m so broke, that last internet bill killed me” or “I’m poor, I can’t go out to the bar/movies this weekend” or “Oh man, I’m so broke, I can’t afford to buy smokes this week”.

I find these attitudes curious, at best. They seem to be a symptom of living in communities that are used to having enough shelter, warm clothing, food and other necessities. Communities that measure their wealth by their entertainment, habits, vices, etc. The majority of the world doesn’t live this way - if they say ‘I’m so broke’ or ‘I’m poor’, they usually mean they can’t afford food or proper clothing for their kids.

That breaks my heart. In some ways, I hate being a product of my generation - the “gimme now” generation. I’ve succumbed to a lot of the stereotypes, myself. I convinced myself that I “needed” a laptop, a particular internet speed and a cellphone for work. I convinced myself that I “needed” a new pair of pants, when older ones were still serviceable. I point the finger at myself, too. I convinced myself that I “needed” some entertainment because I hadn’t gone out for a long time and enjoyed myself.

Of course, all of the above is foolish, and I see that now. I am seeking to change that. I don’t “need” ANY of the above. When I was away from the Church, I grew incredibly hardhearted and blind to the true needs of others. I was convinced that looking after myself was the most important thing. I deluded myself into thinking that I cared about others and that I was really helping them if I made small, insignificant sacrifices of my time, money, etc.

I know better now. I see the world in so much hurt, so much physical poverty, crying out for help - as they said on Catholic Answers Live the other day, the Church is concerned with getting us to heaven, but it’s also equally concerned with our physical welfare here on earth. I need to let Jesus break my heart for the poorest of the poor, so that I can really help them the way He wants me to.
 
In the United States-if you can’t say yes to the below, then you’re poor.

Do you have a roof over your head? Is the power on, the heat (or AC down here) and the water running?

Do you have a way for an employer to reach you? (you need at least a cheap phone for that)

Do you have transportation back and forth to work? (some places will not hire you if you are depending on public transportation)

Can you afford healthy food? (mac and cheese every night is NOT HEALTHY)

Can you put away a little money every week in case of an emergency?

Can you see a MD when you are ill or to guard against preventable illness? (and I’m not talking about the ER for basic healthcare either)

and yes, I think it’s ok if “the poor” have a TV with some rabbit ears or basic cable. Sue me for not wanting them to be miserable enough. 😛
 
Do you have a way for an employer to reach you? (you need at least a cheap phone for that)
The state of California has more telephone lines than the whole of Latin America combined. How has Latin America tackled this problem? They’ve jumped over that technology to the newer technology of cell phones. Even the poor living in the shanty towns and slums of Brazil and Venezuela have cell phones

In fact… some are saying that it’s through cell phones that most in Latin America may find their future connections to the internet.
Do you have transportation back and forth to work? (some places will not hire you if you are depending on public transportation)
The increased, suburban, urban sprawl has dramatically impacted the former links or interconnections between transportation and jobs. When just about all the jobs were centrally located in the traditional cities, an automobile was not needed (accept for suburbanites in the 1950’s traveling into the city for work). Public transportation was sufficient.

Today, as you pointed out, there are many jobs, especially for certain shifts, that require a car. Many of these jobs are located in the far away suburbs and not the traditional cities. I know in Milwaukee the buses stop running around 11:30 PM - 12:00 AM in large part due to cuts in the budget. Which means if you live in inner-city Milwaukee and rely on the bus system while working far out. You may be stranded till what is it… 5:00 AM I think?

About 95% of metropolitan Milwaukee construction industry requires ownership of private transportation too. Back in the 1950’s company construction trucks and vans drove employees to the job site.
 
Ringol. I know that many people have a specific calling to assist the poor. Your calling is a blessing to the world. I have volunteered full time, 5 years of my life as a foster parent. Caring for them day & night, shuttling them to 7-8 appointments a week. My children thrived & showed huge gains in mental, emotional, and physical growth. I am not the uncaring person that you would characterize me to be. We added a room onto our house & purchased a mini van to accomodate our foster children.

Most agencies, churches, myself, and organization provide more than the basic necessities. However the questions was what is required.

I also do have concernes with us turning people into takers. I have heard biological moms say. I don’t have to visit with my kids. I can ignore them for 3 years before they will terminate my rights. She proceeded to disappear for 3 years!!! $90,000. per child (three of them ) times 3 years = $810,000. It cost social services. It cost me my heart. Just when they were ready to allow us to adopt these children whom we loved and raised, She showed up & demanded her parental rights. The biological Grandmother also filed for custody, after refusing to even visit since birth. ** I heard them both yelling at each other in the court house because THEY BOTH WANTED THE WELFARE CHECK they would get with the kids. It broke my heart that neither ever spoke of loving the children! **
😦
When I was small my folks divorced and my Mom got the rights to me (always did at that time).

The only reason she wanted me was for the child support checks she got from my Dad. Never was a cent spent on me, I wore rags and ate pinto beans. I was physically and emotionally abused by mom and step-dad. He broke my leg with his bare hands when I was 9.

Forward a lot of years, I had a dibillitating stroke, can’t work, drive or ambulate without a walker.

I have been chided on the net I(not here) for actually posting on a computer I bought before I was sickend. Seems like some of those very conservative people demanded that I give up all that I had before the stroke to get dissabillity.

Dissability is all I get from the Gov and I paid social security for years before I sickened, to me it’'s just getting back what I paid in.
 
When I was small my folks divorced and my Mom got the rights to me (always did at that time).

The only reason she wanted me was for the child support checks she got from my Dad. Never was a cent spent on me, I wore rags and ate pinto beans. I was physically and emotionally abused by mom and step-dad. He broke my leg with his bare hands when I was 9.

Forward a lot of years, I had a dibillitating stroke, can’t work, drive or ambulate without a walker.

I have been chided on the net I(not here) for actually posting on a computer I bought before I was sickend. Seems like some of those very conservative people demanded that I give up all that I had before the stroke to get dissabillity.

Dissability is all I get from the Gov and I paid social security for years before I sickened, to me it’'s just getting back what I paid in.
Sorry to hear that, Andrew. 😦
 
HI Dean,
Mother Theresa shares ideas on this subject below. Excerpt from:
Speech of Mother Teresa of Calcutta tTeresa of Calcutta to the National Prayer Breakfast, Washington, DC, February 3, 1994
"I can never forget the experience I had in visiting a home where they kept all these old parents of sons and daughters who had just put them into an institution and forgotten them - maybe. I saw that in that home these old people had everything - good food, comfort- able place, television, everything, but everyone was looking toward the door. And I did not see a single one with a smile on the face. I turned to Sister and I asked: “Why do these people who have every comfort here, why are they all looking toward the door? Why are they not smiling?”

I am so used to seeing the smiles on our people, even the dying ones smile.

And Sister said: “This is the way it is nearly every day. They are expecting, they are hoping that a son or daughter will come to visit them. They are hurt because they are forgotten.” And see, this neglect to love brings spiritual poverty. Maybe in our own family we have somebody who is feeling lonely, who is feeling sick, who is feeling worried. Are we there? Are we there to be with them, or do we merely put them in the care of others? Are we willing to give until it hurts in order to be with our families, or do we put our own interests first? These are the questions we must ask ourselves, especially as we begin this year of the family. We must remember that love begins at home and we must also remember that “the future of humanity passes through the family.”

I was surprised in the West to see so many young boys and girls given to drugs. And I tried to find out why. Why is it like that, when those in the West have so many more things than those in the East? And the answer was: “Because there is no one in the family to receive them.” Our children depend on us for everything - their health, their nutrition, their security, their coming to know and love God. For all of this, they look to us with trust, hope and expectation. But often father and mother are so busy they have no time for their children, or perhaps they are not even married or have given up on their marriage. So the children go to the streets and get involved in drugs or other things. We are talking of love of the child which is where love and peace must begin. These are the things that break peace.

But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child, a direct killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself.

And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even His life to love us. So, the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love, that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts.

By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems.

And, by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion.

Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching its people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. This is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion.

Many people are very, very concerned with the children of India, with the children of Africa where quite a few die of hunger, and so on. Many people are also concerned about all the violence in this great country of the United States. These concerns are very good. But often these same people are not concerned with the millions who are being killed by the deliberate decision of their own mothers. And this is what is the greatest destroyer of peace today - abortion which brings people to such blindness.

And for this I appeal in India and I appeal everywhere - “Let us bring the child back.” The child is God’s gift to the family. Each child is created in the special image and likeness of God for greater things - to love and to be loved. In this year of the family we must bring the child back to the center of our care and concern. This is the only way that our world can survive because our children are the only hope for the future. As older people are called to God, only their children can take their places.

But what does God say to us? He says: “Even if a mother could forget her child, I will not forget you. I have carved you in the palm of my hand.” We are carved in the palm of His hand; that unborn child has been carved in the hand of God from conception and is called by God to love and to be loved, not only now in this life, but forever. God can never forget us.

I will tell you something beautiful. We are fighting abortion by adoption - by care of the mother and adoption for her baby. We have saved thousands of lives. We have sent word to the clinics, to the hospitals and police stations: “Please don’t destroy the child; we will take the child.” So we always have someone tell the mothers in trouble: “Come, we will take care of you, we will get a home for your child.” And we have a tremendous demand from couples who cannot have a child - but I never give a child to a couple who have done something not to have a child. Jesus said. “Anyone who receives a child in my name, receives me.” By adopting a child, these couples receive Jesus but, by aborting a child, a couple refuses to receive Jesus."
 
I would relate this to realistic prospects to pursue self-betterment. Maslow would call this the quest towards “self-actualization”. But it’s not the most concrete, and definable type of idea but is an important element, at least to me.
Please don’t equate Maslow’s positions with your own. I know his work well. He was speaking of conditions or states, not (necessarily) societal obligations. He was acknowledging the fact that desperation makes it difficult if not impossible to seek higher Goods, let alone to actualize oneself.

That said, it is my opinion that far too many Catholics romanticize poverty. Poverty is actually quite ugly, and normally does not sanctify someone. (In contrast to vowed or consecrated poverty, freely chosen, or in contrast to lay simplicity of lifestyle.) Rather, unwilled poverty tends to encourage the most base, least noble, instincts in its subject: competition, dishonesty, bitterness, suspicion, and selfishness – all because of the need to survive.

Consecrated poverty (btw, since I brought it up) cannot be compared to secular unchosen poverty, because the former does not have the dimension of insecurity to it, whereas the latter does. Human beings are not attractive when they become dangerously insecure and lack a supportive community.

Thus, my definition of “poor” is layered:

The urgent category of poor:
Also known as the abject poor: an unwilled condition of deprivation severe enough to interfere with purpose, hope, focus, and even self-organization. (Poverty disorients.) IOW, the person needs outside intervention (even temporary) to maintain his motivation and to care, given a self-perception of dependency, a perception which arises from discouragement.

That group is not “millions,” but it is certainly a signfiicant figure, which is why I seekideas for more permanent solutions, not only for Christian compassion reasons, but for the health of communities and the nation.

The working poor:
This group is in a constant state of struggle, but more for maintenance as opposed to raw survival. Like the above group, they find themselves locked in restricted mode, unclear about how to advance beyond this level.

I do not consider the poor to equal “lower-class.” (Living very simply and without luxuries, while not desperate.)

Bottom line: The reason for Jesus’ exhortations about the poor was that He also considered poverty to include dependency/helplessness. His reference point for poverty did not include farmers who had no excess currency to buy purple cloth (luxuries), or who ate meat once a month, but rather the cohort of people who were unable to be independent and who relied on the generosity of others because there was no other choice. (i.e., at risk)

I think, however, that the working poor in a capitalistic society (unlike the ancient Mediterranean) can easily become, and have often become, the abject poor. I think Christian vigilance compels us to work to prevent such regression by ensuring not just opportunity but proactive outreach. (See my comments on the Dolan thread.) That, i.m.o., is a joint project for government, the private sector, religious institutions, NGO’s, and individuals.
 
I have worked for the Salvation Army in the past. The problem is people in those positions become callous over time and instead of recognizing this and stepping back or aside and allowing someone fresh to intervene, they insist on remaining, doing more harm than good. Then we start weighing what is best for the poor in our eyes, We pull out our accounting ledger, we begin to play GOD, because we know what is best for these wretched souls.

.
If you’ve worked with the Salvation Army and been dissatisied with the way they do business…thank GOD you have not worked for an inner city wet (as in ppl who live there can come in as high or drunk as they want) shelter. Salvation Army are saints compared to the work done by the gov’t run public shelters (at least in Boston).

People can stay there for YEARS, spead their montly gov’t check all on booze and drugs in 3 days and then go beg or steal for the rest of the month to support their habit. Anyone who calls this ‘help’ I’d like to see you move one of these homeless into your house and allow them to behave the way they behave living at the gov’t shelter where they eat your food, etc and never wash a dish, never make their bed, never say ‘thank you’, complain about the free food your giving them… it goes on and on…

Not all the homeless are like this…but to any liberal who holds up the gov’t ‘safety net’ as something good…I invite you to move one of these homeles into your own home and see how long you allow them to stay before you go crazy or realize that they are hurting themselves so badly and your contributing to it because they are going out and getting drunk every night.

I’ll also post and invitation to any liberal who lives in MA or is or will be travelling to MA…I’ll leave my wife for an evening and take you to one of these homeless shelters…we can both go there and you can see what it’s like up close and personal. Want to know what it’s really like? I’m inviting you to find out. I’ll be your personal escort. I used to live in these places (for a short while as I was driven to get the heck out of there and to make the changes in my life that were necessary for me to get the heck out of there).

So come and find out how the government ‘helps’ the homeless. Heck, I’ll even be willing to take a few days off of work and we can live the homeless lifestyle together for a few days. It will be best to do it in winter…so on the last day of the freezing cold month you see we are in a shelter full to the max…and then on the 1st, when all these poor people with no food or money (supposedly) disappear… you will see first hand that what happened is they took their monthly check and went to blow it all on drugs and booze…in a few days… and they do this for months and years some of them…

Anyone interested? It won’t be fun for me. Homelessness isn’t fun at all. But I’ll be willing to sacrifice to teach a liberal how the gov’t is HURTING these people and not helping them. The condition is that we stay together day and night and talk about homelessness and related subjects…

God Bless,
Bill
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top