How do Catholics explain 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:26?

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You are trying to compare diety with a mere human or do you believe that Mary is diety as well?
No I do not try to compare diety with human. But Jesus certainly intimately bound God with humanity by becoming human. Let us not forget Genesis “Let Us make man in Our image”. So there are certain aspects of humanity that can be compared with God. You can not seperate Jesus from His humanity anymore so than you can seperate the Son of Man from His Divinity. It is heresy to claim that Jesus did not intimately identify with His humanity and suffer intense human pain as well as suffer spiritual pain - both in His Divinity and in His human soul.

Mary is not deity but she is the highest created creature in heaven above even the highest seraphic angel and 2nd only to the trinity. She has a created human soul though. This is exactly why Lucifer rebelled. In his perfect knowledge in heaven he foresaw Mary and the 2nd person of God (Jesus) as being revealed by God as to be created on earth. Lucifer saw human nature to be completely inferior human stock way beneath his dignity to serve. So Lucifer fell and became Satan in his envy and loathing - “I will not serve” (‘a nature so far beneath me’).

Go back and study Revelations. St. Michael, much lessor in stature and rank than Lucifer was able to rise up in loyalty and desire to serve Jesus that he become the Angelic prince of The Church and God honored him to become the most spiritually powerful and beautiful seraphic archangel now in heaven.

James
 
  1. Mary could not be the mother of God. God always was and has no beginning. Mary had a natural birth as a natural human.
  2. Scripture does not tell us that Mary was conceived without sin. Even St. Thomas Aquinas said that Mary could not have been conceived without sin because of the Scriptures telling us that Mary rejoiced in God her savior. St. Thomas Aquinas is canonized saint in the RCC and I don’t believe anybody posting here is.
  3. Again, Scripture doesn’t say anything about Mary remaining a virgin. It in fact tells us that she had other children besides Jesus and says nothing to the contrary that Mary led a normal married life with Joseph.
  4. Scripture tells us of Enoch being assumed into Heaven body and spirit but never anything about Mary.
As you can see clearly, the Mary of the Catholic church is a far different Mary than the Mary in Scripture.
I say again, the scriptures you cited had nothing to do with the Marian dogma’s. However…

Mary is called the Mother of God, not the creator of God. She did not pre-exist God the Son. However, she did pre-exist God Incarnate who is Jesus. Therefore, she is called the Mother of God. Or as Elizabeth says “Mother of my Lord”. Clearly this is scripturally supported. Yes, I agree with what others have said and which you agreed, Mary is not the mother of the Father and the Spirit. They were not born to her, only the Son took flesh, of course.

Not everything thought of or written by a saint is the teaching of the Church. The Bible doesn’t directly tell us there is a Trinity either, we have to apply some reason to what we read. Mary’s immaculate conception is NOT about Mary. It is not a Catholic attempt to elevate Mary in any way. It is recognition of a truth about JESUS who is utterly holy. This is revealed in Scripture when you understand things in context. For example, the fact that Mary is “full” of grace, prior to the greeting by the angel, indicates she was pure before the Spirit overshadowed her. Additionally, in the Old Testament you see in typology Mary’s Immaculate Conception. St. Paul makes great use of typology so that is not some Catholic invention. Anyhow, read up on the Ark of the Covenent, which was made of the purest gold so it could hold the written Word of God, the manna (bread of heaven) and the rod of Aaron (representing the priesthood). The womb of Mary is like the Ark-- it was completely pure (free from sin) not because of anything Mary did or deserved, simply because her womb was to “house” the Word of God, the Bread from Heaven, the High Priest.

Actually scripture does not say Mary had other children besides Jesus. There is scripture that says “brothers of the Lord” but NOT ONE scripture indicates Mary was a mother to other children. Brother is a term that was loosely used in the Bible. We see that brothers can mean disciples, as is the case when Jesus tells Mary Magdalene to go tell His brothers He has risen and she goes to the Apostles. Or, it can mean kin or cousins, like when Abraham is called Lot’s brother but we know from another passage that he was an uncle. But the real clincher, for anyone who knows about ancient Judaism, comes from the lips of Our Lord when He gives Mary to the Beloved Disciple at the foot of the cross. It would have been ILLEGAL for Jesus to have given Mary to someone else if He had blood brothers. Jesus would never have done this.

Scripture does not explicitely say that Mary was assumed into heaven. However, scripture does not conflict with the idea either. The precedent was already set. Anyway, the point of the thread (I thought) was about “conflicts” between scripture and Marian dogma. This is not a conflict, scripture simply does not mention it.
 
  1. Mary could not be the mother of God. God always was and has no beginning. Mary had a natural birth as a natural human.
Before we get too far into this, I’d like to point out that “mother of God” is actually not a literal translation of theotokos.

Theotokos doesn’t translate very neatly into English – “birthgiver of God” – so we typically say either “mother of God” or “God-bearer”. (Meter theou – “mother of God” – is also used, but theotokos is what was dogmatically defined by the Council of Ephesus.)
  1. Scripture does not tell us that Mary was conceived without sin. Even St. Thomas Aquinas said that Mary could not have been conceived without sin because of the Scriptures telling us that Mary rejoiced in God her savior. St. Thomas Aquinas is canonized saint in the RCC and I don’t believe anybody posting here is.
Well I didn’t want to toot my own horn. 😃
  1. Scripture tells us of Enoch being assumed into Heaven body and spirit but never anything about Mary.
Good point. So if we know that Enoch (and Elijah) was assumed into heaven, is it so hard to believe that Mary was too?
  1. Again, Scripture doesn’t say anything about Mary remaining a virgin. It in fact tells us that she had other children besides Jesus and says nothing to the contrary that Mary led a normal married life with Joseph.
You may have seen a thread I started a couple days ago, Cardinal Newman vindicated (re Vatican I)?, about the fact that Newman opposed Papal Infallibility being dogmatically defined, even though he believe it to be correct. I would say the same about #2, #3, and #4: I believe them all to be correct, but that doesn’t mean that it was a good idea to dogmatically define them.
As you can see clearly, the Mary of the Catholic church is a far different Mary than the Mary in Scripture.
 
Good point. So if we know that Enoch (and Elijah) was assumed into heaven, is it so hard to believe that Mary was too?
Not hard to believe. Just no evidence that she was.

Do you happen to know the first time the assumption is mentioned in historical documentation from the early church?
 
Not hard to believe. Just no evidence that she was.
Its more like we have no evidence that she wasn’t.
Do you happen to know the first time the assumption is mentioned in historical documentation from the early church?
St. John wrote about her being in heaven in Revelation. Are you going to ask for documentaion from outside the bible???
 
Its more like we have no evidence that she wasn’t.
Okay…we have no evidence Paul, Mark, or Barnabas were not assumed into heaven, either. That doesn’t mean we say they were. You can’t disprove a negative.
 
You have the bones of Mark and Barnabas? Where?
Mark’s head is in a church named after him in Alexandria, and parts of his relics is in St. Mark’s Cairo’s Cathedral. The rest of his relics are in the San Marco Cathedral in Venice, Italy.

Barnabas is in Cyprus, I believe.

I’m not sure if any of the above relics have an authentic, verifiable chain-of-custody.
 
Mark’s head is in a church named after him in Alexandria, and parts of his relics is in St. Mark’s Cairo’s Cathedral. The rest of his relics are in the San Marco Cathedral in Venice, Italy.

Barnabas is in Cyprus, I believe.

I’m not sure if any of the above relics have an authentic, verifiable chain-of-custody.
There’s no way to tell, unfortunately. So it’s possible either way. Only with positive verification of their remains could you then say they weren’t assumed into heaven.

Bear in mind, I am not disputing the assumption; but without positive ID from the apostles that it occurred, I cannot believe it de fide.
 
Mark’s head is in a church named after him in Alexandria, and parts of his relics is in St. Mark’s Cairo’s Cathedral. The rest of his relics are in the San Marco Cathedral in Venice, Italy.

Barnabas is in Cyprus, I believe.

I’m not sure if any of the above relics have an authentic, verifiable chain-of-custody.
Which by the way, I will note that there doesn’t seem to be any patristic writings referencing the Assumption and, importantly, it doesn’t appear until the 6th century in a work that was condemned by Pope Gelasius (tractate something or other).

Not even Catholic.com has patristic references to it. I cannot find any either.
 
There’s no way to tell, unfortunately. So it’s possible either way. Only with positive verification of their remains could you then say they weren’t assumed into heaven.

Bear in mind, I am not disputing the assumption; but without positive ID from the apostles that it occurred, I cannot believe it de fide.
Dig city.

At least we both take the Catholic Church’s word about the ascension. We don’t have Jesus’ bones either, don’t ya know.😉
 
Find the bones of Mary and you disprove the Assumption. So far, it has not been proven.
 
Dig city.

At least we both take the Catholic Church’s word about the ascension. We don’t have Jesus’ bones either, don’t ya know.😉
That’s true; but at least we have eyewitness testimony to his ascension 🙂
 
And how do you justify Mary queen of Heaven by the Scriptures? And, prove to me how Mary plays any role whatsoever in our Salvation?
Just the fact that the ‘episode’ with her and Joseph is the start of the NT and the fact that she said ‘let it be done to me.etc etc.’ proves it that she played SOME role in everyone’s salvation. This is not just a scriptural argument, but a logical argument.

In other words, it’s common sense.
 
Thomas is an eyewitness to Marys assumption.

Listen, the only reason this is an issue with Protestants and non-Catholics is because it is something that differentiates us from you. The formula we see is consistent and very simple - attack anything that Catholics do or say that Protestants don’t do and anything that clearly demonstrates that Catholics have a separate and unique authority. You all strain gnats in your teeth over each other’s 32,000 or so separate sect false scriptural interpretations and the only way to escape that embarrassment is to try and unite under a “common fog” of things you can mutually agree to disagree with Catholics over. You are united only in your common contempt for papal and ecclesial authority and anything that derives from it - in particular Dogmas.

This petty pattern of behavior much tells us plainly what unites you all - common scorn. That is not a marker for Christian virtue. It is a marker of anti-Christ. Those are the facts people whether you want to admit it or not you serve somone other than Christ every time you attack Catholic dogmas or Catholic authority.

“Thou are Peter and upon this rock I build my Church”
“Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter my kingdom”.
“Those who reject you, reject me”.
“Those that do not gather with me scatter”
“Those that are not for me are against me”

You non-Catholics all live in a very precarious faith and I am telling you frankly that no one who dies with a spirit that is hostile to Catholic authority and dogmatic teaching or is hostile to venerating Mary is going to enter heaven. Period.

James
 
Hi,

This discusses 1 Timothy 2:5
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp

In regards to Hebrews 7:26, I encourage you to pray to the Father through Jesus and ask Him:
If He gives us Mary as our mother whom we can ask for intercession.

If the Catholic Church has the the fullness of truth.

If the Eucharist which is centrally related to the priesthood of Jesus is Jesus Himself and not a mere symbol.
I read that Article, and its paraphrasing the scriptures to fit into the belief that we ought to ask the saints in heaven to intercede for us.

But when “…one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples.
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.” Luke 11:1-4
  1. Why do we make traditions replace Jesus’ own words regarding how to pray?
    We shouldn’t ask the Saints in heaven, or the saints on the grave, or the angels, nor anyone other than Jesus to intercede with us, because Jesus didn’t say to do that.
    That’s what St. Paul said in Timothy 2:5. No other intercessor, not Mary, not Paul, not Peter, not the Elders in heaven that pour the prayers of the saints, or the Angels. They may pray for us, but Angels have never fallen, so they don’t know what its like to be subject to sin, then can only behold it and have pity on us, because they’ve never sinned (just like I can’t tell how difficult it is for a smoker to stop smoking, because I’ve never done it).
  2. Dead people can’t pray for you either, that includes Mary, Peter, Paul, James, John, etc. because the Bible says the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5; Job 14:12, 21; Psalms 146:4; Gen. 3:17-19) until their resurrection (1 Thessalonian 4:16, and Mary and his disciples are some of those who are dead in Christ). The only people in scripture that I know are in heaven are: Enoch, Moses, Elijah, and probably those that rose from the grave on Sunday after Jesus resurrected (Matthew 27:52-53), other than them, I have nothing in the Bible on the rest.
  3. Ultimately Jesus himself said to ask His Father directly and to come boldly to the throne of grace to find grace in time of need. That is not a suggestion from Jesus, its a commandment (John 14:13-15; 15:16; 16:26 and Hebrews 4:15-16; be sure to read those texts or you won’t see it).
  4. Therefore, even though we are not worthy of God, the sacrifice of Jesus allows us to go to the Father directly, no other angel, saint or man may “intercede” for us in behalf of Jesus. There are no steps between us and God other than Jesus. We pray for each other and ask God to help a neighbor or the people we love, but we ask God directly through Jesus, because Jesus said to do so. Anything outside of that, is breaking the commandment Jesus said.
Ariel >>
 
Hello James,

Could you provide a link for this info?

By the way and for any interested, here is an awesome article on the dogma of the assumption.

catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=469
These are non-scriptural sources.

According to The Passing of Mary, a text attributed to Joseph of Arimathaea, Thomas was the only witness of the Assumption of Mary into heaven. The other apostles were miraculously transported to Jerusalem to witness her death. Thomas was left in India, but after her burial he was transported to her tomb, where he witnessed her bodily assumption into heaven, from which she dropped her girdle. In an inversion of the story of Thomas’ doubts, the other apostles are skeptical of Thomas’ story until they see the empty tomb and the girdle.[3] Thomas’ receipt of the girdle is commonly depicted in medieval and pre-Tridentine Renaissance art.

Christian Classics: Ethereal Library TOC
The Passing of Mary: First Latin Form
Passing of Mary: Second Latin Form

James
 
Yes, Jesus is The High Priest and King. But in ancient times the advocate of the people to the king was the queen mother. She was the one who interceded with the king on the people’s behalf. This is why we Catholics refer to Mary as the Queen Mother of heaven. All the power and authority resides with Jesus, the King, and the final say is His, but like any good king, He listens to the council of His mother. Even those of us who are not kings should do likewise.

A little historical context goes a long way 😃
God does not have a queen. And to say that Mary is Jesus’ queen would be very spiritual incest. And God does not conform to human rules as to how he governs (refering to the Queen tells the king, or intercedes) that is man made.

The only intercessors according to the scriptures are Jesus and The Holy Spirit. (1 Timothy 2:5) also Romans 8:26 “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.”

Jesus commanded us to pray to the Father, no one else, in His name.

So anything outside of what he said, is being more religious than God himself is.

May God bless you and keep you all

Ariel >>
 
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