B
- Status
P
pablope
Guest
S
SyroMalankara
Guest
Have you seen that giganourmous JESUS at Chile’s neighbor, Brazil???
T
Tommy999
Guest
Hi SyroMalankara,
Yes, I have seen the statue in Brazil. I like it. A few hour drive from where I live there is a very large ‘Christ of the Ozarks’ statue near Eureka Springs, Arkansas. I like that one, too, as well as a huge cross near Effingham, Illinois on I-70 that I drive by sometimes on my way to visit relatives back east. I think that is neat, too.
I’m not opposed to Mary statues, by the way. I see one occasionally in someone’s yard by a fountain or a group of flowers. I think it is a peaceful and nice symbol of faith.
It was the proportionality issue that I was puzzled by and somewhat offended by when it appeared that Christ was secondary to Mary to those who made and erected the statues in Chile. Also, by the amount of candles and petitions there compared to the statue of Jesus made it look like Mary got a lot more attention than Jesus, at least it appeared that way to this protestant lad.
E
estesbob
Guest
To be honest I have never run across a Catholic who have this problem. it seems, however, to be an obsession among many of our separated brethren
T
Tommy999
Guest
No obsession here, estesbob. Just a question of curiosity. Mary isn’t emphasized much at all in many protestant denominations except during the Christmas season. That is why it puzzles a lot of us protestants the attention she gets on a regular basis in Catholicism.
However, many good Catholics have explained Mary’s place in the Catholic faith and I now have a better understanding because of it, and I respect it.
Note: I have always believed that Mary was a a godly young woman for God to have chosen her to bear the Lord Jesus Christ. Her virtues serve as an example for all young women. She deserves honor, pure and simple. Once again, for me it had to do with proportionality, if that is a word.
L
lutheran_farmer
Guest
I was quite careful about this going through RCIA. It’s in your attitude. Mary is one of us. She’s human (without sin, but still human). I am in awe of her for what she has done for us, but she never inspires fear and trembling or the same level of reverence as God. She is easy to talk to, LOL!
During the Eucharist and/or adoration, I sometimes have trouble looking at the altar because I feel so unworthy. That is a feeling only God can cause. When I am preparing for reconciliation, talking to Mary is comforting, but once I go in to confess, it’s all about God.
Mass is also a time where the entire focus is on God. Have you noticed that all the prayers during the Eucharist are to God alone? There is a reason for that.
During the Eucharist and/or adoration, I sometimes have trouble looking at the altar because I feel so unworthy. That is a feeling only God can cause. When I am preparing for reconciliation, talking to Mary is comforting, but once I go in to confess, it’s all about God.
Mass is also a time where the entire focus is on God. Have you noticed that all the prayers during the Eucharist are to God alone? There is a reason for that.
T
Telstar
Guest
Hi, TommyNo obsession here, estesbob. Just a question of curiosity. Mary isn’t emphasized much at all in many protestant denominations except during the Christmas season. That is why it puzzles a lot of us protestants the attention she gets on a regular basis in Catholicism.
However, many good Catholics have explained Mary’s place in the Catholic faith and I now have a better understanding because of it, and I respect it.
Note: I have always believed that Mary was a a godly young woman for God to have chosen her to bear the Lord Jesus Christ. Her virtues serve as an example for all young women. She deserves honor, pure and simple. Once again, for me it had to do with proportionality, if that is a word.
I’ve been thinking about this a bit, and it’s quite possible that the place you went to was a shrine of some kind, that was dedicated to the Blessed Mother. That would explain why the larger statue of her was at the top of the hill, and the statue of Jesus was somewhat smaller. If you went to a shrine dedicated to Jesus (like a shrine of the Sacred Heart of Jesus), then you might find a smaller statue of the Blessed Mother and a larger statue of Jesus.
The focal point of any Catholic shrine would typically be the dominant feature on the grounds. Whoever the shrine is dedicated to (either Jesus, Mary, a Saint, etc) will always have a statue or picture that is the center of attention. It’s certainly not meant to be disrespectful of anyone else. Shrines are meant to be a peaceful place to go and pray. That’s the whole point of them.
Nearby, there’s a Shrine of Our Lady of Fatima. The most prominent feature, there, is a huge Rosary made from a very large crucifix, with huge boulders tied together by big chains, formed in a large circle. People who go there can follow the path around it and recite the Rosary by stopping at the crucifix and each boulder (Rosary bead) along the path. There’s also a statue of Mary and the three children that saw her in the visions at Fatima, Portugal. It’s a wonderful place to go and pray. Around Christmas time, the whole place is decorated with strings of Christmas lights. People from miles around (even from out of state) go there every year to see the lights and pray around the Rosary. It’s absolutely beautiful!
T
Tommy999
Guest
Hi Telstar,
I did a little research and I believe it is called San Cristobal Hill in Santiago, Chile. The picture sure looks familiar, anyway. I think this was it. It may be a shrine like you said but I don’t know for sure. Perhaps someone on CAF can say for sure.
It is referenced in one of the pictures toward the bottom (below the fish market pictures and just below the statue of Pope John Paul II) in the following link:
wakawakawinereviews.com/2013/10/17/an-afternoon-in-santiago-chile-mercado-centrale-and-san-cristobal/
You can see a picture of Christ on the cross with the Virgin Mary statue towering above it in one of the photos.
Also a picture of the top of the hill of the Virgin Mary statue is listed in this link.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Crist%C3%B3bal_Hill
I guess it makes more sense if you look at it like it as a shrine to the Virgin Mary instead of how my protestant mind processed it as Mary taking precedence over Christ. Once again, this was several years ago when I went there.
D
Dorothy
Guest
Thank you for the pictures Tommy999 !
T
Tommy999
Guest
You’re welcome, Dorothy. Now we have more of an objective picture of what I saw when I wore a younger man’s clothes
D
Dorothy
Guest
You’re welcome, Dorothy. Now we have more of an objective picture of what I saw when I wore a younger man’s clothes
T
Telstar
Guest
OK, I did a little googling and struck pay dirt! There’s another wiki page that has a bit more detail about the statue:"History
Before the arrival of the Spanish forces in Chile, the place where the shrine now stands was venerated by the indigenous population and known as Tupahue, meaning “Place of God” in Mapundungun. Some time after the founding of Santiago, a 10 meter cross was placed on the hill’s summit, where it remained until the end of the 19th century. Popes Leo XIII and Pius X both proclaimed that during 1904, the 50th anniversary of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception would be celebrated. Answering this call to commemoration, the Archbishop of Santiago, Monsignor Mariano Casanova, asked the priest José Alejo Infante to coordinate a meeting of clergymen and lay people. It was at this meeting that Infante proposed and received approval for the construction of a Marian shrine.[3]
The statue is believed to be a reproduction of the “Virgin of Rome” and was designed by Luigi Poletti and is a work by Giuseppe Obici.[3] The prestigious French foundry Val D’Osne was commissioned with the task of constructing the statue by then Chilean ambassador to France, Enrique Salvador Sanfuentes. The statue cost 22,000 francs at the time.[3]
The land on which the sanctuary was built was donated by the communities of the Recoleta Dominica church and the Saint Teresa Carmelites of Santiago.[4] The first stone was placed on December 8, 1904 and the shrine was officially inaugurated on April 26, 1908.[1] In 1987 it was visited by HH John Paul II.[5]"So, this certainly explains why Mary’s beautiful statue is so prominent on top of the hill.
T
Telstar
Guest
From one of my all-time favorite songs!You’re welcome, Dorothy. Now we have more of an objective picture of what I saw when I wore a younger man’s clothes
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Thank you Billy Joel.You’re welcome, Dorothy. Now we have more of an objective picture of what I saw when I wore a younger man’s clothes
E
EvangelCatholic
Guest
Tommy
You raise valid points and why some Protestants are confused by this kind of display featuring the Blessed Virgin. I can’t speak for the Orthodox but I know Anglicans and Lutherans would never position the statue of Mary above Christ.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Thanks, Tommy for showing the picture.
They were proclaiming her immaculate conception and this statue was put there in her honor.
And it also makes me think that all the devotions to the Lord, to her, to recogntion of JPII, she is the transmitter of grace of all the prayer intentions below to the Lord in heaven.
I see her placement more as the bridge between heaven and earth, she the closest creature to God in heaven, she interceeding for us, beseeching the Lord to hear our prayers. I don’t see her competing at all with the Lord or the veneration implying to me she is greater than the Lord. We don’t look at Mary as God. So I am sharing here from the inside.
They were proclaiming her immaculate conception and this statue was put there in her honor.
And it also makes me think that all the devotions to the Lord, to her, to recogntion of JPII, she is the transmitter of grace of all the prayer intentions below to the Lord in heaven.
I see her placement more as the bridge between heaven and earth, she the closest creature to God in heaven, she interceeding for us, beseeching the Lord to hear our prayers. I don’t see her competing at all with the Lord or the veneration implying to me she is greater than the Lord. We don’t look at Mary as God. So I am sharing here from the inside.
B
Bob_Crowley
Guest
And that, Tommy, is precisely the problem. When Protestants look from the outside in, they do so, in most cases, with preconceptions that give an immediate bias to their perceptions.
They may hear the Rosary being recited, as you did, and immediately assume this proves their suspicion Catholics worship Mary.
We don’t, and if you went to most Catholic masses, you’d probably hardly hear Mary mentioned, except in the creeds (either Apostles Creed or Nicene Creed), and even there she’s merely mentioned in one line.
Nicene Creed - “… he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man…”
Apostles Creed - “… who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the virgin Mary …”
These creeds are statements of faith, which no Christian should disagree with anyway.
We hold Mary in higher esteem that Protestants obviously, and we believe that she has a special role to play in what might be called passing on the prayers of the saints to God. The saints are doing something up there, besides waving palm branches and singing eternally (neither of which turns me on as an eternal prospect). After all as Christ said, if we’ve been shown to be faithful in small things, we’ll be trusted with big things. The saints, who showed themselves to be be faithful in small things here, are then entrusted with big things up there.
But if you took the Protestant hard line boys in their interpretation, all the saints do in heaven is sit around on their backsides all day.
Mary has a heavenly role. We know very well that Christ was God, not Mary. But it was also at Mary’s request that Christ performed his first miracle - the Wedding at Cana. God, in the form of Christ, did what she asked, and in doing so, began His public ministry. And she was very much involved.
In a similar fashion now, Christ, or God if you like, listens to His mother.
Incidentally the Rosary is just a combination of some Scriptural verses, plus a request that she pray for us.
Lifted from -
blessedjp2.com/totus-tuus/where-is-the-hail-mary-in-the-bible/
Luke 1:28 - the Angel Gabriel - “Hail Mary, full of Grace” The Angel Gabriel greets Mary with very respectful greeting used for royalty. … Gabriel then proclaims Mary full of Grace (full of God’s own life and love. I mean if the Archangel Gabriel turns up and tells “you’re full of grace” and that the “Lord is with you”. then you’re a bit more important in God’s sight than the average feminist.
Luke 1:28 “The Lord is with you” This is word for word. The Angel Gabriel said that the Lord is with Mary, she is full of his Grace, his own life.
Luke 1:41 “Blessed are you among women” - Elizabeth is filled with the Holy Spirit; she is inspired by the 3rd person of the Blessed Trinity to proclaim that Mary is the most blessed among all women.
Luke 1:42 **“And blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus” **(and blessed is the fruit of your womb) Elizabeth still inspired by the Holy Spirit proclaims that the fruit of Mary’s womb, the developing Jesus, is blessed. The text doesn’t say “Jesus” after womb, but it is implied, the fruit of her womb is Jesus.
The remainder,** “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.”** is an addition. Ever ask your friends to pray for you? I’ll bet you have, and no doubt you expect God to listen to them. What makes you He think He’s not going to listen to the woman He chose to be His Son’s Mother?
We don’t worshop Mary, but we hold her in high esteem. And she’s got a role to play in heaven, along with all the saints who have proven themselves trustworthy in small things.
M
MarcoPG
Guest
I didn’t read all the replies, but i would like to say this:
Mary followed Jesus, therefore she is a Saint. She accepted God’s plan totally, therefore she got the crown, as we may get the crown at the end of Times. She was born without sin to bear the Lord.
Mary is indeed the greatest saint. Mother of God. Queen of the Universe, born without sin, and so on as we meditate the mystery of the Incarnation and Salvation … but unlike Jesus Christ the Son of God and God himself, who has all graces and is source of all the graces, all these graces of Mary come from God. When a Catholic says that Mary or another saint “gives” graces, it is because The only Mediator Jesus gives them, as He gave the old Saints and us His Spirit, making us mediators because of Him.
Therefore praying to the Saints is a way to go to God, but all these ways (through Mary too) go ultimately to Christ and then to the Father. That is the Church, and her Communion.
When a Catholic knows that Mary is who she is because of her Son, a creature who do not share God’s nature, it is clear that Mary cannot be above God or worshipped/adored. When one sees pictures of the Virgin Mary bearing the Son, it is not to say Mary is greater, but the Arch, the Temple, and the one who says of Jesus: “Look at Him, do what He says”.
Mary followed Jesus, therefore she is a Saint. She accepted God’s plan totally, therefore she got the crown, as we may get the crown at the end of Times. She was born without sin to bear the Lord.
Mary is indeed the greatest saint. Mother of God. Queen of the Universe, born without sin, and so on as we meditate the mystery of the Incarnation and Salvation … but unlike Jesus Christ the Son of God and God himself, who has all graces and is source of all the graces, all these graces of Mary come from God. When a Catholic says that Mary or another saint “gives” graces, it is because The only Mediator Jesus gives them, as He gave the old Saints and us His Spirit, making us mediators because of Him.
Therefore praying to the Saints is a way to go to God, but all these ways (through Mary too) go ultimately to Christ and then to the Father. That is the Church, and her Communion.
When a Catholic knows that Mary is who she is because of her Son, a creature who do not share God’s nature, it is clear that Mary cannot be above God or worshipped/adored. When one sees pictures of the Virgin Mary bearing the Son, it is not to say Mary is greater, but the Arch, the Temple, and the one who says of Jesus: “Look at Him, do what He says”.
S
SAVINGRACE
Guest
Hi Tommy,
The reason I am attracted to Our Lady is because she was human. So was Christ but he was also Divine and impeccable. Two sides of the same coin.
Our Lady shows us what all christians should be like. She said yes to God without question and let his will be done (realising her son would suffer and die) in the same way that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son and do God’s bidding without question.
I always aspire to be like her because I know it is impossible for me to be like Christ. he was perfect, you would go insane trying to be like Christ. For me I try to be like the human Mary and follow the divine Christ’s teachings.
Smaller or larger statues, higher or lower statues is irrelevant. For the most part it’s decorative designed to invoke meditation and contemplation. We don’t have a relationship with a statue. We have relationships with the person the statue represents.
All Catholic Churches have Christ front and centre stage.
It’s what you worship in your heart that matters.
The reason I am attracted to Our Lady is because she was human. So was Christ but he was also Divine and impeccable. Two sides of the same coin.
Our Lady shows us what all christians should be like. She said yes to God without question and let his will be done (realising her son would suffer and die) in the same way that Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son and do God’s bidding without question.
I always aspire to be like her because I know it is impossible for me to be like Christ. he was perfect, you would go insane trying to be like Christ. For me I try to be like the human Mary and follow the divine Christ’s teachings.
Smaller or larger statues, higher or lower statues is irrelevant. For the most part it’s decorative designed to invoke meditation and contemplation. We don’t have a relationship with a statue. We have relationships with the person the statue represents.
All Catholic Churches have Christ front and centre stage.
It’s what you worship in your heart that matters.
- Status