How do Catholics keep from putting Mary above Christ?

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Tommy,

Our beliefs are that Jesus Christ saved us from sin and restored us to the Father, but it is a daily faith walk because one must deny one’s self, pick up the cross, and endure to the end, and only those who do God’s will and endure in Him to the end of their lives will be saved.

Subsequently, the Crucified Lord is the bridge to the Heavenly Father. We experience the Crucified Lord and the Risen Lord at the Mass.

Mary is closest to Our Lord in that she did not sin. She works with the Lord for our salvation and redemption and has great power of the devils. She is our greatest advocate at death and I personally witnessed 3 deaths where people turned to the Lord after undergoing demonic affliction or despair.

Mary is transmitter of grace that comes only from God. She has grace to help us live God’s will. She manifests to some the presence of heaven, and to others with heavy crosses, she protects their hearts from breaking. In the Lord she makes suffering light so it is bearable, a constant testimony at Lourdes. At Lourdes many go there for healing and most don’t get it, but they find new strength and acceptance in carrying their cross.
Hi KathleenGee,
I can tell you are a person of deep faith who lives out that faith on a regular basis. I find that very commendable. Your devotion is very real and shines through in your comments. 🙂 . That is why I enjoy communicating with you so much.
 
Actually, I had considered this thread ended because my question was answered to my satisfaction, but you touched on an area where I still struggle that I wanted to pursue a little further, if ok with everyone.
First of all, let me say that I am comforted to know that Mary and the saints are in heaven praying for us down on earth and I am grateful for it. In fact, I appreciate it.
 
Hi ,

I am sure others could add to this list ,but enough has been highlighted for me anyway,to show that ,in the absence of any scripture or textual basis ,that this thread might equally be
entitled:
?
Bernard…in post 88: you stated thus: I do not believe in ‘Sola scriptura’ as such ,

Seems like from the statement above, are going back to be a Sola Scripturist? anyway, just asking. 🤷
 
Actually, I had considered this thread ended because my question was answered to my satisfaction, but you touched on an area where I still struggle that I wanted to pursue a little further, if ok with everyone.

First of all, let me say that I am comforted to know that Mary and the saints are in heaven praying for us down on earth and I am grateful for it. In fact, I appreciate it.

However, I believe the Apostle Paul when he writes in **I Timothy 2:5, “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus”. **

Since Catholics also seem to believe that Mary is a mediator between us and Christ because of her special relationship as Jesus’ mother, doesn’t that imply that Christ’s role as sole mediator is somehow insufficient?

In other words, our communication line to God through Christ our sole mediator is somehow infected by static to the point where we need an additional mediator (Mary) to help fix it. Some folks add that we also need to pray to the saints because or their special relationship to God.
Let me put it this way, Tommy. Catholics do not believe that the only way we can pray to God, is through Mary. We all pray directly to God the Father in the “Our Father” that Jesus taught us, as only one example. The Rosary contains the Our Father at the beginning of every decade of Hail Marys. It also begins the entire Rosary, after we start it with the Apostle’s Creed (I Believe in God). The Rosary also contains other prayers, like the “Glory Be” (Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. World without end. Amen). That prayer is also repeated at the beginning of the Rosary and at end of every decade. We recognize God, first, every time we pray. We start all prayer with the Sign of the Cross (In the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen), then usually follow that with the Our Father. We also end all prayers with the Sign of the Cross. Whether we pray to Mary or to the Saints, we always acknowledge God above all, first and last.

Many Catholics also pray directly to Jesus. Very often, we do this throughout the whole day. We don’t necessarily say ‘formal prayers’ (composed prayers), either. But, we talk to Him as if He were right here in the room with us (which He always is) and we’re having a conversation, just as we would with any friend or relative. It’s a very personal and familiar relationship that we have with Jesus. That’s one thing that always annoys me when some protestants say that Catholics “need to have a real ‘personal relationship’ with Jesus”. We already do! And, you can’t get any more personal than receiving the Holy Eucharist, believe me. To a deeply spiritual person, that is the epitome of our worship of God. Just contemplating what it really means to all of us is truly incredible, as well as very humbling.
To me, that seems like a more convaluted approach than to pray directly to God through Christ as our sole mediator. It begs the question, “Where does the need for additional mediators end?”

If we need Mary and the saints to help intercede for us to Christ, why wouldn’t it also be logical that we should pray to our recently passed away parents and/or our devout and departed Uncle Joe and Aunt Carolyn for their intercession? In otther words, where does all the mediatorship end?

Please help correct my misconceptions.
If we believe that a deceased family member is exceptionally holy, there is nothing wrong with asking them to pray for us. But, they might not necessarily be in Heaven, yet. They might be in Purgatory, so we should always start by praying for them. We should pray for all of the holy souls in Purgatory, and ask them to pray for all of us. Purgatory is where we are purged of the residual ‘muck’ of sins, left on our souls at the time of death. If souls are in Purgatory, their final destination is Heaven, so they can definitely pray for us. But, they can’t pray for themselves. That’s why we need to pray for them.

The bottom line is that Mary and the Saints are still a part of humanity, except they’re already in Heaven and we’re still struggling down here. If we think of humanity as sort of a ‘pyramid’, all leading up to God, Mary would be at the top of that pyramid. But, she’s definitely not God. She’s still very much human. Above her is Jesus, the True Mediator between humanity and the Father. Mary is just the top of all humanity. Her position is unique. We pray to her and the Saints because they are the closest that human beings can get to God, already. They ‘have His ear’ because they lived very holy lives, so He listens to their pleas for us. Remember the wedding at Cana? Jesus turned water into wine, only because Mary asked Him to help that young couple. Think about that, and how it relates to us asking Mary to talk to Jesus for us. 😉
 
The great point about intercessors is that we are social beings and that the Church fulfills our needs because it is not only Christ’s Church, but because it is a social institution.

The Church actualizes our communion with the Holy Trinity through liturgy and the sacraments, through her moral teachings on all kinds of issues. We also have priests who help us. One priest got a new car and said if there is anyone there who could tell him a sin he never had heard, he would give them the car. The Church is full of compassion and she shows it in the face of others in the Church. So many times we have our fellow believers encourage us and pray for us.

We cannot prove to God anything by praising Him…if we do not love our neighbor.

Our neighbor is our ‘barometer’ of how much we truly love the Lord. Our neighbor is the one who sees our blind spots and points them out to us when we think we are OK. And a Dominican told me if he is not suffering for about 3 months, he knows he is doing something wrong. The highway to hell is wide and fast and easy, the ultimate BIG EASY!!

What does this mean?

Even though we go to Mass every week, even every day, we know we cannot save our selves and WE NEED ALL the help we can get.

I already gave some references in how Mary is our greatest advocate when we are in our last hours on earth, when the devil comes to torment us and label us and tell us we are no good.

But – through the intercession and knowledge of some lives of the saints, St. Theresa of Avila said that we can only do about 10% in being good or atleast trying to be good…but the Lord does the other 90%. So many times, it is a simple yes to do His will, and we are in situations that are so hard to fulfill…but God knows our intentions and heaven knows our good intentions.

I knew of this older man who used to go to Adoration at 2 am in the early morning. One morning he got up and it was snowing, and the chapel was way up on the hill. So he prayed to Blessed Mother, ‘Please help me Mother Mary, I have to go to visit your Son!’ So within seconds, a sand truck pulled out from no where right in front of him, and lay a safe pathway for him up the hill. This is typical of Mary’s intercession and ----- her sense of humor.
 
=Tommy999;12083971]Hi everyone,
I was just listening to my local Catholic radio station where I listen to Catholic Answers Live. However, I missed it and tuned in to hear a half hour of continuous Rosary recitations. It was beautiful but troubling to me in a way because it brought back an unpleasant old memory that I will describe below. The way they alternated from men praying the Rosary to women while intejecting music at times was mesmerizing and pretty. However, it made me wonder the following:
How do good Catholics draw the line between venerating Mary and uplifting her so high that her importance equals and competes with that of Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirirt?
Unpleasant memory:
Several years ago I was traveling in South America. I remember visiting a prominent park situated on a big hill in Santiago, Chile, (or at least I believe it was Santiago). Toward the bottom of the hill, there was a section of small statues of some saints. About half-way up the hill there was a big statue of Jesus, which I thought was very nice. However, when we got to the top of the hill, there was a gigantic statue of the Virgin Mary with lots of candles and other stuff adorning it.
It made me wonder and I thought to myself, “These folks love Mary more than Christ”.
Having been on this forum for almost a month, I know there are a lot of Catholics who venerate Mary and love and serve God and Christ strongly and sincerely with their whole hearts. I’ve interacted with many of you.
Can you explain how you keep from putting Mary in a higher position than Christ in your life? To me, that sounds like it could be a challenge for Catholics.
My FRIEND:)

You’re question flows from the NORMAL Protestant Manta of what THEY THINK we Catholics believe and do.

For Informed and Fully-Practicing Catholics its a NONE ISSUE.

There is NO competition between Mary and Her Son. MARY like ALL the Saints LEAD us to a closer Union with Christ; which is what the CC Teaches, and what we belief and practice.

THANK YOU so much for the kindness of your post.

God Bless you, Patrick
 
Hi everyone,
I was just listening to my local Catholic radio station where I listen to Catholic Answers Live. However, I missed it and tuned in to hear a half hour of continuous Rosary recitations. It was beautiful but troubling to me in a way because it brought back an unpleasant old memory that I will describe below. The way they alternated from men praying the Rosary to women while intejecting music at times was mesmerizing and pretty. However, it made me wonder the following:

How do good Catholics draw the line between venerating Mary and uplifting her so high that her importance equals and competes with that of Christ, God the Father, and the Holy Spirirt?

Unpleasant memory:
Several years ago I was traveling in South America. I remember visiting a prominent park situated on a big hill in Santiago, Chile, (or at least I believe it was Santiago). Toward the bottom of the hill, there was a section of small statues of some saints. About half-way up the hill there was a big statue of Jesus, which I thought was very nice. However, when we got to the top of the hill, there was a gigantic statue of the Virgin Mary with lots of candles and other stuff adorning it.

It made me wonder and I thought to myself, “These folks love Mary more than Christ”.

Having been on this forum for almost a month, I know there are a lot of Catholics who venerate Mary and love and serve God and Christ strongly and sincerely with their whole hearts. I’ve interacted with many of you.

Can you explain how you keep from putting Mary in a higher position than Christ in your life? To me, that sounds like it could be a challenge for Catholics.
It doesn’t seem to be an issue within the Church.
How do Catholics keep from putting Mary above Christ?
Catholics just don’t do that. It’s not like there’s some exercise or discipline to it. There’s no “Keep Your Perspective of Mary in Check” class out there. Mary is at one level, and God is infinitely above.
 
I believe what Kathleen means, is that Catholics are more inclined toward the inner spiritual forms of worship (aka ‘mystical’)

That certainly doesn’t mean that we ignore the Bible.

She is separate and above the rest of us, because God created her that way. She is the Mother of God in the Person of Jesus Christ. That makes her completely unique from the rest of mankind. Doesn’t God have the right to treat her in a special way, and to expect us to do the same?

Mary is the mediator that leads the Saints, and the rest of us, to Jesus.

There is no “parallel” between Mary and God. Mary is a creation of God, just like we all are. She just happens to be the most perfect human being that ever lived, who remained within God’s grace for her entire earthly life. (Jesus is the only perfect man, but He is not a “creation” of God. He is, and always was, God.)
Hi Telstar,what ever Kathleen herself was intending by her comment,‘Catholiicism is essentially mystological,not textual bible based’
It seems to me that in all the parallels I have attempted to point to :there is no scriptural backing.

Mary indeed was unique in her own role and was also certainly a role model of faithfulness and meekness;
But for me ,it seems to be an inescapable reality that by placing Mary on the highest pedestal possible and elevating her above all mortal flesh ,since the time that mankind fell,
that RC teaching has given her power and a role that is never suggested or taught by Jesus or seen through the writings of those he left behind to record his words and doctrine.

If Mary is the mediator that Leads us to Jesus ,then Jesus himself being God ,means Mary is mediator between Man and God ; then of necessity in her role as mediator,she must also be a mediator between God and men?
Which of course is contrary to the teaching of 1Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God ,and one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus”
How does one escape this conundrum and the simple arithmetic involved with this verse?
Do one and one in a mystical sort of fashion ,still make one?

I have not been suggesting that RC teaching claims Mary to be equal with God,only that those characteristics unique to divinity are in no small measure attributed to her person and role.
Paul says ( Romans1:3) “concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord ,which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh”
Although he ever was the Son ,he was ’ made’ (to become) then was not his human flesh a ‘creation’ of God ?
By teaching the perfection of Mary’s flesh I would suggest here too,we have an exact parallel,not only so but because ,you say Mary was sinless prior to Gods only Son coming into the world ,this unique sinless Man 's appearance ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh’ is not so unique after all: as Mary was here first!
Furthermore since Mary’s own existence was through ‘the immaculate conception’
Jesus her son comes in the runner up or in second place once again.
 
Hi Tommy,

I don’t know if you have ventured into reading papal documents yet, but you may want to read Pope St. John Paul II’s encyclical Redemptoris Mater, or Mother of the Redeemer, on the role of Mary in the plan of salvation as evidenced in Scripture, and on her role in the Church and in each of our own “pilgrim journeys” today. You can find it at the following link:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_25031987_redemptoris-mater_en.html

To understand the Rosary and its Christocentric nature better, you may want to read JP II’s Apostolic Letter Rosarium Virginis Mariae, at the following link:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_20021016_rosarium-virginis-mariae_en.html

John Paul II had a great love for Mary, as he believed she brought him closer to Jesus.

PS Just a bit of a heads up: if you’re accustomed to getting information in bite-size pieces, you may find reading these documents requires some adjusting, as they are quite lengthy (but full of treasures). I found I needed to set aside quiet time with no distractions, and break my reading into hour-long chunks in order to properly absorb what I was reading and contemplate it.
 
Look at Mary like you would a pair of glasses. We Catholics look through Mary to get an even better focus on Christ. If we were looking at the glasses rather than through the glasses than this would be idolatry.
 

and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Bernard, is the word of God limited to the written word?

Apostolic…what do you mean is meant by being “apostolic”?

Hi,pablope In Galations 2 and in your verse Paul had already between among the Gentile preaching ,so for me it appears he is a bit late if it is as you imply he is here seeking permission or approval to so do.
Furthermore since Titus was there’ compelled’ to be circumcised in the following verse,then perhaps the reason for this private consultation ( ‘privily’)with the faithful ’ brethren’ was that Paul did not wish these ‘false brethren unawares brought in’( verse 4) to unnecessarily ,Prejudice( with their unjust accusations ,)the true saints , before Paul had opportunity to explain beforehand.
Clearly then the circumcision were still a great threat what ground, Paul through the Gospel,had already secured.
Was Paul also afraid that that true brethren were already greatly affected by this leaven(circumcision )?
So much so, that in a public arena ,they would not harken to truth( the Gospel Paul was advocating)?
Then such a disaster would ultimately overturn that which he had already ( among the Gentile) so earnestly contended for,and his race indeed would have been in vain!

In regards the complete and completed word of God:
The world could not contain the (words) books that could have been written, but only one was (and is still)
This however is not con stricture but an unending ,source of contemplation and usefulness and any utterance worthy of the name ‘salt’ is according to this same word.

Finally by apostolic I mean that office peculiar to the twelve.
It is my opinion that when Paul in regards to his own calling( as an apostle) said ’ and last of all me’ as one born out of due season.
There is no evidence I believe ,to add a single apostle after the twelfth .
This being true wether he is a pope or a Pentecostal minister,both claims ( gifts of Pentecost)are identifiable to the time of the inauguration of the church and the foundation on which the church rests upon.
 
Hi Bernard…

Just take a look at Mary’s magnificat…my soul doth glorify the Lord…He has done great things for me…holy is His name…

The angel Gabriel:…Hail Mary, full of grace.

What does ‘full of grace mean?’

Do you know what the Mass is and what does it do??? IF you would study the Mass…and sorry to be blunt, not focus on creatures so much, inc. Mary, you would find out the Mass manifests the fullness of Christ totally…just as He was on the Cross…and in His Resurrection and Ascension into heaven.

And note Pope Pius XII’s use of language…‘assumption’…what does assumption mean? We assume, but we don’t know how. We do know by faith that Mary was conceived sinless. Wages of sin are death…but she did not sin. So we can only assume she followed Our Lord into heaven…by His will and power, not hers.

Mary has singular grace, we don’t.

I would say, ask Mary to help you to find the truth about her and Jesus…I mean, Scripture actually speaks so little about Mary because the focus was Christ’s mission of salvation and redemption.

But the fact the Bible says so little about Mary likewise tells us so much about her. She does not detract from the Lord.
 
Hi Telstar,what ever Kathleen herself was intending by her comment,‘Catholiicism is essentially mystological,not textual bible based’
Hello again, Bernard.
I have to admit, I do believe that the Catholic Church is far more mystically focused than most, if not all, modern ‘Protestant’ churches, with the few exceptions being those that still retain the basic Apostolic liturgies and forms. Since Jesus is God, it’s only logical that His True Church would naturally reflect His Own Divine Mysticism.

God is a total Mystery to all mankind that we can only understand in a very miniscule way. The Catholic Church has always focused on trying to understand more of that deep mysticism that we all struggle so hard to figure out. I also believe She has come closer to understanding those deep mysteries than any others have, due to the continuous guidance of the Holy Spirit, for 2000 years.

Is there a problem with mysticism, in your view? Do you doubt that the Holy Spirit has the power to inspire such deep mysticism in Christian people of faith? Was Jesus not more inclined toward the mystical side of man, instead of the temporal/carnal side? Didn’t Paul speak about mysticism when he said: “1 Corinthians 4:[1] Let a man so account of us as of the ministers of Christ, and the dispensers of the mysteries of God. [2] Here now it is required among the dispensers, that a man be found faithful.”
And Jesus told the Apostles: "Matthew 13: [10] And his disciples came and said to him: Why speakest thou to them in parables? [11] Who answered and said to them: **Because to you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven: but to them it is not given.**Jesus came to inspire us all to live our lives in a much more spiritual way than men had ever done in the past. He taught us to explore the spirituality that makes up our very souls. Everything we learn about Jesus should always be seen through the spiritual lens of our soul.
It seems to me that in all the parallels I have attempted to point to :there is no scriptural backing.
The Bible, ‘alone’, (“sola scritura”: which you claim not to follow) is only a small portion of the books and oral traditions that were available to early Christians, long before the Bible was ever assembled. Writings of the ECFs also shed some light on what was believed and taught in the days before anything was ever committed to paper. The oral traditions were held in the same high esteem as those that were written, because not everyone could read. So, it’s needless to say that there are some traditions that you will never find in the Bible, however, that doesn’t mean they weren’t always there from the beginning.
Mary indeed was unique in her own role and was also certainly a role model of faithfulness and meekness;
But for me ,it seems to be an inescapable reality that by placing Mary on the highest pedestal possible and elevating her above all mortal flesh ,since the time that mankind fell,
that RC teaching has given her power and a role that is never suggested or taught by Jesus or seen through the writings of those he left behind to record his words and doctrine.
The Catholic Church doesn’t ‘give’ Mary any power. All the Church does is recognize those gifts and honors that she has already received, directly from God. As I said, sola scriptura just doesn’t cut it.
If Mary is the mediator that Leads us to Jesus ,then Jesus himself being God ,means Mary is mediator between Man and God ; then of necessity in her role as mediator,she must also be a mediator between God and men?
Which of course is contrary to the teaching of 1Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God ,and one mediator between God and men,the man Christ Jesus”
How does one escape this conundrum and the simple arithmetic involved with this verse?
Do one and one in a mystical sort of fashion ,still make one?
I already addressed this. You’re certainly free to believe whatever makes you ‘feel good’ about your faith.
I have not been suggesting that RC teaching claims Mary to be equal with God,only that those characteristics unique to divinity are in no small measure attributed to her person and role.
Mary is not God.
Paul says ( Romans1:3) “concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord ,which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh”
Although he ever was the Son ,he was ’ made’ (to become) then was not his human flesh a ‘creation’ of God?
Are you suggesting that Jesus is a creation of God? Or, that He is somehow less God than the Father? Seriously? Are you sure you want to go down that road, here? Jesus took on human flesh, He was NOT ‘created’ in any way!
By teaching the perfection of Mary’s flesh I would suggest here too,we have an exact parallel,not only so but because ,you say Mary was sinless prior to Gods only Son coming into the world ,this unique sinless Man 's appearance ‘in the likeness of sinful flesh’ is not so unique after all: as Mary was here first!
Mary is the perfect human woman; the New Eve. Jesus is the perfect human man (while always remaining fully God); the New Adam. Both sinless from birth to death. Adam was created first, then Eve. The New Eve was created first, then the New Adam. How would you suggest God bring His Son into the world? Is there any way Jesus could have been born before Mary? 🤷
Furthermore since Mary’s own existence was through ‘the immaculate conception’ Jesus her son comes in the runner up or in second place once again.
What!!! :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
Thanks again to everyone for your replies. I really do appreciate them. I realize that the level of devotion to Mary will continue to be a hot topic of discussion among Christians of different backgrounds in the future. For me, this thread is officially over although if people want to continue to comment, you are more than welcome to do so.

Although I don’t hold the same high level of devotion to Mary as Catholics do (and possibly never will), I respect their position and I am in not in a position to say they are wrong or misguided in their beliefs.

To me, *it has been *and always *will be *a matter of putting Christ first because He is our beloved Savior who died on the cross for our sins – not Mary. However, she was obviously a special godly young woman and blessed of God for God to have chosen her to bear our Lord and for her to graciosuly say “yes”. She obviously loved Him dearly to be at the cross with the Apostle John when Jesus died for us.

For me, she is now more than just a casual after-thought during the Christmas season and I will thank God for her more often in my prayers. If she and the saints are praying and interceding for us up in heaven (including us protestants) like my Catholic frineds on CAF say she does, I appreciate it and am grateful to God for it.
 
About the Catholics and of course, the Orthodox, the Eastern apostolic Church, founded by the apostles, yes, the Church is mystalogical for a most important reason.

It is through the Word and Sacraments that Jesus Himself lives and ministers to us. It is Jesus Who is the life of the Church, Who gives the papacy prominence so that when the pope speaks, the world listens.

Human beings can not ever fully define Jesus in His living essence, because of our basic limitation as creatures.

The Lord has given us His Church and teachings.

Former Catholics need to get hold of the Catholic Church Catechism, CCC.

In it you will find the majority of footnotes supporting Catholic doctrine comes from none other than Sacred Scripture. We have the Early Church Fathers articulating points of faith, the ECF’s. Then we have footnotes from great theologians such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. There are footnotes pertaining to Church Councils – defined interpretation in how to believe and practice your faith in the times you live in, and then papal documents and the saints. We have Canon Law as well to implement the life of the Church, the document on the Sacred Liturgy.

The five reference points for Catholic belief are: The present Vatican Council that interprets Sacred Scripture and Tradition, documents on the Sacred Liturgy that includes rubrics – how we believe, we pray, the Catechism, Canon Law pertaining to all aspects of governing. We also have papal encyclicals, letters by popes to the people…but not every encyclical carries the same degree of truth. Pope Paul VI wrote an encyclical that was all but ignored…he wanted all the seminaries around the world to teach in Latin.

Truth is essentially Jesus Christ and how He is understood or you can use the word, interpreted for today.

So the elements of understanding our faith from what I just shared are not mystical.

What is mystical is Jesus Christ in the form of bread and wine Who provides us His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity – Jesus Christ in the Liturgy Who breaks open the Word of God and makes the Word understandable!

It is the Liturgy Who is the teacher of the Word of God!! Jesus Christ is the Teacher, Logos.
 
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