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mardukm
Guest
Does such an admission give you an inkling at all of the foundations for the Catholic belief in the infallibility of the bishop of Rome, the successor of St. Peter?
Blessings,
Marduk
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Blessings,
Marduk
L
lampalm
Guest
How would it lead to infallibility, and if it did why would it be passed to (or limited to) the Bishop of Rome?
I believe that the pope is a man, so God works through the pope the same way He works through you and me.
S
steve_b
Guest
The point was Peter’s see/chair. You were saying it’s not really a see/chair according to the “majority of Christians” (which I would dispute) but Peter’s faith. That’s an attempt by people who are seperated now (Protestants and EO) from the chair of Peter, to redefine the faith to convince the world they are not seperated. As Paul said, Dividers trying to be clever to convince the naive to follow THEM, is still deception and NOT serving Our Lord but their own selfish appetites. [Rm 16:17…] And as Paul says that’ll go on for awhile then Satan will soon crushed under the Church of Rome’s feet. Too bad we don’t know how long a time period “soon” means.
l:
Who was it that
- selected Simon
- changed Simons name to Rock?
- says He builds His Church on Rock
- gave Rock the keys to the kingdom, a kingdom without end.
- gave Rock the power to bind and loose
Because Jesus told us
Jn 5:19
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Jn 14:10
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jn 14:31
I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
Therefore, from all time, The Father chose Peter(Rock). Even before Peter opened his mouth. And since Peter has the keys to the kingdom that will never end, and not even the gates of hell will prevail against it, he will have successors to follow him in this office. Peter laid THAT groundwork of succession in Acts 1 when he called for the replacement of Judas when Judas died.
S
steve_b
Guest
Peter and his faith are a package deal.
l:
Yes the Father revealed the truth to Peter. And Peter responded. We can’t ignore either, that Peter is the Father’s choice from all time. Jesus told us so when He said
Jn 5:19
the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
Jn 12:49
For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
Jn 12:50
whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."
Jn 14:10
The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.
Jn 14:31
I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
Therefore, from all time, The Father chose Peter(Rock). And since Peter has the keys to the kingdom that will never end, and not even the gates of hell will prevail against it, Peter will have successors to follow him in his office. Peter laid THAT groundwork of apostolic succession in Acts 1 when Peter called for the replacement of Judas when Judas died.
That’s why I showed you the quote from Irenaeus to show you the dynamic at work of an early bishop, teaching about the importance of apostolic succession, and who it is that is in that line of succession, by naming names.
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
I don’t believe that anything can be worse than being so close to the truth and still managing to go to Hell.
I believe that one day when radical Islam is threatening to over take Rome and Constantinople ad perhaps even Moscow that all the silliness will end and the East and West will be reconciled.
Most of the things that separate the Orthodox and Catholics are SMALL.
Ther East should obey the bishop of Rome.
The Latin branch of the church should be more charitable and not sweat the small stuff–listen and learn from the East.
I believe that one day when radical Islam is threatening to over take Rome and Constantinople ad perhaps even Moscow that all the silliness will end and the East and West will be reconciled.
Most of the things that separate the Orthodox and Catholics are SMALL.
Ther East should obey the bishop of Rome.
The Latin branch of the church should be more charitable and not sweat the small stuff–listen and learn from the East.
M
mardukm
Guest
Dear Lampalm,
On that same principle, Catholics point to the fact that among the Apostles, St. Peter held a special place and was given unique charisms or responsibilities. On the principle of Apostolic Succession, this unique role among the group that itself is unique in relation to the general population of believers, is handed down in the Apostolic Succession. It is inconsistent for apostolic Christians who believe in the principle of Apostolic Succession to deny this unique role within the Apostolic college.
To put it another way, many Protestants believe that the charisms and roles given to a unique group of men in Scripture are in the possession of EVERY Christian in general, though there is no evidence of that in Scripture. Similarly, many non-Catholic apostolic Christians believe that the charism and role given to a unique member among the Apostles is in the possession of EVERY Apostle in general, and therefore of all bishops who are the successors of the Apostles, though there is likewise no evidence of that in Scripture.
Blessings,
Marduk
I do not know your background. If you are Protestant, I admit it may not have any relevance for you. But to apostolic Christians who believe in Apostolic Succession, it does (or should) hold much relevance. Belief in the principle of Apostolic Succession depends on the idea that our Lord chose a SPECIFIC group of men to carry on the Mission in a unique way. We would point to the fact that our Lord gave specific charisms to a select group of men, distinct from the general population of believers.
On that same principle, Catholics point to the fact that among the Apostles, St. Peter held a special place and was given unique charisms or responsibilities. On the principle of Apostolic Succession, this unique role among the group that itself is unique in relation to the general population of believers, is handed down in the Apostolic Succession. It is inconsistent for apostolic Christians who believe in the principle of Apostolic Succession to deny this unique role within the Apostolic college.
To put it another way, many Protestants believe that the charisms and roles given to a unique group of men in Scripture are in the possession of EVERY Christian in general, though there is no evidence of that in Scripture. Similarly, many non-Catholic apostolic Christians believe that the charism and role given to a unique member among the Apostles is in the possession of EVERY Apostle in general, and therefore of all bishops who are the successors of the Apostles, though there is likewise no evidence of that in Scripture.
That would be consistent for a Protestant to believe, but not for an apostolic Christian.
Blessings,
Marduk
E
ERose
Guest
The Catholic church’s definition of what Catholic means as from the official Catechism:
*What does “catholic” mean?
830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” the Church is catholic in a double sense: First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. the Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.
831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:310
All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God’s will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one… the character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit.311*
*What does “catholic” mean?
830 The word “catholic” means “universal,” in the sense of “according to the totality” or “in keeping with the whole.” the Church is catholic in a double sense: First, the Church is catholic because Christ is present in her. "Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church."307 In her subsists the fullness of Christ’s body united with its head; this implies that she receives from him "the fullness of the means of salvation"308 which he has willed: correct and complete confession of faith, full sacramental life, and ordained ministry in apostolic succession. the Church was, in this fundamental sense, catholic on the day of Pentecost309 and will always be so until the day of the Parousia.
831 Secondly, the Church is catholic because she has been sent out by Christ on a mission to the whole of the human race:310
All men are called to belong to the new People of God. This People, therefore, while remaining one and only one, is to be spread throughout the whole world and to all ages in order that the design of God’s will may be fulfilled: he made human nature one in the beginning and has decreed that all his children who were scattered should be finally gathered together as one… the character of universality which adorns the People of God is a gift from the Lord himself whereby the Catholic Church ceaselessly and efficaciously seeks for the return of all humanity and all its goods, under Christ the Head in the unity of his Spirit.311*
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steve_b
Guest
As you know, technically Constantinople lost its name in 1926, it is now Istanbul. Re: Moscow, it’s estimated that by 2050 Russia will be majority Muslim. news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5056672.stm
As an aside, Christianity in Turkey is < 2% of the population. Most of those Christians live in Istanbul. The largest Christian group in Istanbul is Catholic.
JJ:
It would be nice if those same sentiments came from the EO who post here.
JJ:
The Catholic Church is made up of the Latin rite ~98% of the total population and the Eastern rites which make up the remaining 2%. But we are ALL represented by the Pope. He speaks for the entire Church. The popes have been extremely charitable in their overtures to the EO Churches. I don’t sense the same sentiments are returned. But the popes keep trying.
L
lampalm
Guest
I would be interested in hearing how apostolic Christians would view it differently.
L
lampalm
Guest
So Catholics believe that Orthodox go to hell?
E
ERose
Guest
No we do not. I am not exactly sure what he is trying to say but he has more than one fact wrong.
From everything I have read and heard the catholic church is very open to reconciliation and after having discussions with other Orthodox the people of the Catholic church are more open to unity than the people in the orthodox church. The catholic church has been very open by using phrases such as “our sisters in the East” and comparing the east and west as a pair of lungs.
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mardukm
Guest
I can help with that. I was a member of the Oriental Orthodox communion before I became Catholic, and had adhered to the same views on the matter as those Orthodox Christians not in communion with Rome today. There are 3 basic positions (though there are always those who are “in between”, or are a mish-mash of these basic positions):I would be interested in hearing how apostolic Christians would view it differently.
(1) St. Peter only had a primacy of mere honor among the Apostles.
(2) St. Peter had more than a primacy of mere honor, but such apparent examples of the uniqueness of St. Peter in Scripture are merely circumstantial - i.e., while they applied to the Apostles, they don’t apply to the Church today.
(3) St. Peter had more than a primacy of mere honor, and this has indeed been handed down in the Apostolic Succession, but such primacy exists only either at the metropolical level or the patriarchal level, and not the universal level.
Individual Orthodox each have their own rationales for accepting their positions. There is no commonality except to agree that the primacy does not belong to Rome today.
Personally, I have come to sincerely believe that none of those positions above are scriptural, patristic, nor logical — part of the reason I joined the Catholic communion.
Blessings,
Marduk
J
Jerry-Jet
Guest
Is it mortaly sinful to be schismatic–or venially sinful to be schismatic–or not sinful at all to be schismatic if you have known the Fullness of Truth that is the Catholic faith?
Now I’'m sure there may be some Orthodox who have not known the Fullness of Truth that is the Catholic faith but what about people who have left the Catholic faith for the Orthodox? Are those people mortally sinful–venially sinful–or not sinful at all?
What would most Catholic say?
Now I’'m sure there may be some Orthodox who have not known the Fullness of Truth that is the Catholic faith but what about people who have left the Catholic faith for the Orthodox? Are those people mortally sinful–venially sinful–or not sinful at all?
What would most Catholic say?
S
steve_b
Guest
People born into families who are NOT Catholic, are NOT guilty of formal schism. They didn’t commit that sin. That doesn’t mean they will always remain innocent of that sin. It depends on what they come to know about the truth.
For example:
Ignorance
- ***1791 *ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.
- ***1859 *Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
Therefore, once someone comes to the knowladge of the truth, Catholic or non Catholic, they must act on it.
- ***846 *How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it
those who continue to live like this will not inherit the kingdom of heaven [Gal 5:21]
I bring that up to show that Paul set that bar high to begin with. The Church took into consideration all the division that took place since Paul said that. And gave good guidelines for people who find themselves in a position where they obviously can see they are seperated from the chair of Peter what they need to do. So once they know the truth, they have a choice to make.
L
lampalm
Guest
So if someone believes in Catholicism they should be Catholic? I guess that makes sense.
S
steve_b
Guest
It’s even more than that. We are required by God to be one in His ONE Church that He started 2000 years ago. Seperation from that Church is disobedience to the faith we received from God. Paul didn’t mince words. If one seperates from this ONE Church and remained that way they won’t inherit heaven [Gal 5:21]. 2000 years later, that same Church started with Peter as the one to rule that Church is still here. It’s the Catholic Church, with Peter’s see in Rome. However there are 10’s of thousands of groups seperated from this Church and they’ve taken billions of people with them over the 2000 years. How then, does the ONE Church put this grave matter for those who seperated or will seperate, into a proper light?
Everyone everyday, is being given grace by God to believe correctly and come to the truth. The HS isn’t the author of all this division, Satan is. And men either cooporate with God or Satan. That’s why Paul also said to the Church of Rome
Rm 16:
*17 I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. *
20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.
This Church has given guidlines to those who have divided or would divide, so there is no confusion. That’s why I gave those sections from the CCC. The choice is always personal. Does one remain wise and stay which is good, or does one become guilty of what is seriously evil, by dividing.
That’s why Paul also teaches
Titus 3:
10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. 11 You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.
Sound pretty harsh? Paul wrote that under the influence of the HS. Who is the HS speaking for? It’s Jesus and God the Father
Jn 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
So we know how God, (Father Son and HS) views division. And how He will judge it.
I’m thinking to myself, who in their right mind would even WANT to argue with THAT or be seperated from the Church EVERYONE knows is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.
If you ask me, I sure don’t need even 1 warning.
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