How do Catholics view penal substitution theory of atonement?

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It’s absurd that the father requires a sacrifice. It’s not absurd that we demanded a sacrifice (can’t say I remember this demand).

I’m sorry but this contrast you suggest isn’t winning any common sense points with me. it does not ring true with any of my intuitions that you have offered something better.

That we demanded the sacrifice to my knowledge is also a new soteriology for whatever that’s worth.
To be precise, it was our sins that “demanded” the sacrifice but as we are responsible for our sins we are the ones who needed the sacrifice.
Yet this would be the height of injustice! Only a monster would demand a bloody sacrifice from a guiltless person to make amends for the crimes of others.
Penal substitution advocates generally hold that this was a mutual decision in the trinity (perhaps before creation, be a certainty or a contingency). God didn’t have to sacrifice himself. He could have just destroyed humans after the first sin.

An infinitely loving Father would never destroy His children made in His image and likeness! That is why hell exists…
It was not the Father’s Will that the Son should offer Himself as a human ransom for us.
But furthermore, you are suggesting something at odds with a Messianic prophecy from Isaiah 53:10:

Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Isaiah had no knowledge of the Blessed Trinity. By “the LORD’s will” he meant God’s Will.
 
To be precise, it was our sins that “demanded” the sacrifice but as we are responsible for our sins we are the ones who needed the sacrifice.
If that’s the way God designed us, to need a sacrifice after corruption, then it still leads back to him. So it may not be to appease his anger, but that was never a necessary to penal substitution any way. Again, Calvin was the first to articulate it and while he spoke of the wrath of God, he mentioned that that was metaphorical language as Calvin also subscribed to the static unmoving unaffectable passionless (or perpetually happy) god of the philosophers, of much of classical theism.

And again, my pastor articulates it this way. He doesn’t speak of God’s wrath needing to be appeased but the rules of the universe (in place by God) that demand some sort of recompense for sin.
An infinitely loving Father would never destroy His children made in His image and likeness! That is why hell exists…
And where did hell come from? That causal chain still goes back to God.

And it was probably still a free choice of God’s to redeem us. That means he could have held back his infinite love. Or perhaps not. Then his love would’ve taken the form of grief as it does for all of the damned.
Isaiah had no knowledge of the Blessed Trinity.
It does not matter. The church still recognizes this prophecy as fulfilled in Jesus.

I actually agree with the non-christian scholars that the passage is about Israel. But Jesus is Israel. Jesus did what Israel could not do.
By “the LORD’s will” he meant God’s Will.
yes… what I said depends upon that.
 
Sorry, not obvious at all. Some say for the slightest sin, death is deserved. Others take the common sense view, that gossip or stealing gum balls doesn’t deserve crucifixion (but its still more than enough to cover it).
Our sins deserved Death. According to Penal Substitution, Christ was condemed for the guilt of our sins and took upon Himself the punishment for all our sins.

The problem is, some of those sins deserved Enternal Damnation. If Penal Substitution was valid, it would mean that Christ is in Hell in Enternal Torment.

Since this is not true, It logically follows that Penal Substitution is not true.

One might say that Christ did not take upon Himself those sins which merit Hell, but in that case, there can be no forgiveness for such sins, as they would not have been attoned for.
 
To be precise, it was our sins that “demanded” the sacrifice but as we are responsible for our sins we are the ones who needed the sacrifice.
How do you reconcile that view with your claim to be a Protestant?
So it may not be to appease his anger, but that was never a necessary to penal substitution any way. Again, Calvin was the first to articulate it and while he spoke of the wrath of God, he mentioned that that was metaphorical language as Calvin also subscribed to the static unmoving unaffectable passionless (or perpetually happy) god of the philosophers, of much of classical theism.
Calvin’s belief in predestination implies that we have no choice about our final destiny. If that is the case we cannot be responsible for the extent to which we sin! We are blessed or damned regardless of what we try to do…
And again, my pastor articulates it this way. He doesn’t speak of God’s wrath needing to be appeased but the rules of the universe (in place by God) that demand some sort of recompense for sin.
If God created the rules of the universe why do they demand some sort of recompense for sin? Why didn’t He create different rules?
An infinitely loving Father would never destroy His children made in His image and likeness! That is why hell exists…
And where did hell come from? That causal chain still goes back to God.
How do you reconcile that view with your claim to be a Protestant?
And it was probably still a free choice of God’s to redeem us. That means he could have held back his infinite love. Or perhaps not. Then his love would’ve taken the form of grief as it does for all of the damned.
If God “held back” His infinite love He wouldn’t be infinitely loving…
Isaiah had no knowledge of the Blessed Trinity.
It does not matter. The church still recognizes this prophecy as fulfilled in Jesus.

The Church does not recognize the prophecy that “it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer” for the simple reason that our infinitely loving Creator does not cause anyone to suffer unnecessarily.
I actually agree with the non-christian scholars that the passage is about Israel. But Jesus is Israel. Jesus did what Israel could not do.
How is Jesus Israel?
 
Cat herder,
Nope. God did not create evil.
Which is not what I intend to convey. You said a loving God wouldn’t destroy his children, that’s what hell is for. I’m saying that God designed the world in which people who rebelled against him would be judged (destroyed or sent to hell). So it isn’t the case that God wouldn’t destroy his children if he created us with responsibililty and consequences.

Then again, I suppose what you meant to say is that a loving God wouldn’t destroy them in the annhilationists sense, but would rather let them stew in hell. I don’t see how there is anything in the slightest to commend this, unless you have a much nicer view of hell than most other people.

Brenden, I believe I began to address objections like yours on the first page.

tonyrey,
How do you reconcile that view with your claim to be a Protestant?
I don’t know what the problem with what I said and protestantism is. But for that matter, I don’t know how you are interpreting me.
Calvin’s belief in predestination implies that we have no choice about our final destiny.
Which I find not just wrong but also extremely reprehensible. But I also don’t find it relevant to this discussion. Even if it’s related, it isn’t related enough that I can tell for a fruitful conversation on the current topic.
How do you reconcile that view with your claim to be a Protestant?
Again, I have no clue what the problem with that is. And I’m not sure that you are interpreting me correctly to begin with.
If God “held back” His infinite love He wouldn’t be infinitely loving…

Just because something is not boundless in every conceivable way does not mean that it isn’t boundless at all. To parallel this with mathematics, you could have a lin that radiates from a point toward infinity. You could have a line that is infinite in both ways. You could have an infinite plane or an infinite 3 dimensional space.
It seems to me that God has indeed held back his love from Satan and his minions… if the traditional view of them is correct.
The Church does not recognize the prophecy that “it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer” for the simple reason that our infinitely loving Creator does not cause anyone to suffer unnecessarily.

Or you just don’t know church history. The attribution of this chapter to Jesus is very early, in the new testament itself where Philip ascribes it to Jesus in acts 8.
How is Jesus Israel?
He fulfills God’s purposes for Israel.
 
If God “held back” His infinite love He wouldn’t be infinitely loving…
It is absurd to compare God’s love to mathematical rules.
The attribution of this chapter to Jesus is very early, in the new testament itself where Philip ascribes it to Jesus in acts 8.
Why are there more than 30,000 Protestant sects? Because individuals have used snippets from the Bible to justify their arguments.
 
If you want to discuss the topic, I’m still willing.

Sorry, red herrings will be ignored. Start your own topic on denominations. As for the mathematical thing, don’t describe anything of God as infinite if you don’t like the imagery. or perhaps you didn’t know that quantities and concepts such as infinity were mathematical.

And I drew an analogy. It is a time honored way to discuss everything including God.
 
I still have this thread on my radar, geebob, I just wanted to let you know that. I am studying Atonement/Redemption as we speak, and it may be a while before I meaningfully contribute. I’ll PM you when I write my big post.

My position has been modified somewhat. I used to think “substitutionary atonement” was not Catholic, but I just realized how dumb that is, since any atonement would have to involve some concept of substitution, since it was Jesus who did the deed on our behalf and, obviously, not us. What, for sure, is not Catholic is the word “penal” and all the beliefs that go along with it. Why Catholic have our differences with that belief is something that I am not totally sure of, yet. Do you mind explaining what penal substitution theory of atonement actually is?

And, btw, in light of what I sight about substitutionary atonement, why in the world do Orthodox Christians get so up in arms about it? By the very nature of what happened, there must be some concept of substitution.
 
I just realized how dumb that is, since any atonement would have to involve some concept of substitution, since it was Jesus who did the deed on our behalf and, obviously, not us. What, for sure, is not Catholic is the word “penal” and all the beliefs that go along with it. Why Catholic have our differences with that belief is something that I am not totally sure of, yet. Do you mind explaining what penal substitution theory of atonement actually is?
The gospels explicitly say that Jesus came to pay a ransom for us. So yes, substitution is there, and it is a part of the orthodox faith (small “o”, but large one too). The question is to whom was the ransom paid. Christus Victor, the the predominant catholic and East Orthodox view suggests that the ransom was paid to Satan. Penal substitution suggests that it was paid to God. Also, I think penal substitution involves the idea that sin deserves retribution, that there has to be a balance through pay back. This is indicated by an early law given by God himself, “an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth”. One might suggest that the death of one man can’t offset all the evil indicated by an eye for an eye, but that’s where I’d point out that Jesus Divinity, which entails infinitude in and of itself, plays a more important role here.

I really don’t take Christus Victor and Penal substitution as exclusive of each other. It may be by God’s design (design in light of a broken world of course) that sin places us in a debt, and being in that debt places us under Satan’s authority. As I mentioned before, I don’t think that any one view of atonement is strictly and exclusively correct. The atonement, why one man’s death (and subsequent resurrection) should be the lynch pin of the redemption of the world is a mystery and the various atonement theories allow us to look at this mystery from different angles and gain different insights.
 
As I mentioned before, I don’t think that any one view of atonement is strictly and exclusively correct.
And you would be right - our Redemption is effected in many different ways, and I can count, off the top of my, head at least six. The thing is, penal substitutionary atonement is singled out by a lot of Catholic theology as being wrong. I am not sure why, though. I’ll find out.
 
To all:

“… A similar mingling of the true and the incomplete is seen in the aspect of Substitution or Vicarious Punishment. In this view the idea of ransom passes into that of Christ as our substitute. His precious blood is our price and more than our price, because the shedding of it represents what we deserved. His death is in place of our death, his suffering in place of our punishment. Now undoubtedly there is a truth contained in such statements, because the language with a slight change is the traditional Catholic language, and we all use it when we wish to speak of the Sacrifice of the Cross. But again it is not the full truth. If instead of using “in the place of,” the holders of this view had written, “on behalf of,” their version would have served well. The Latin language with its preposition “pro,” and the English use of “for,” tend to confuse what St. Paul kept quite distinct. The death of Christ for him is ”for our sake,” “on our behalf,” ( ύπέρ not άvτί ) and not “in our stead” ; and if his words do imply some kind of substitution, it is a substitution based on an intimate union of Christ with us, and not on a mere exchange.
Code:
“This meaning and the implications of St. Paul’s view will be developed later. It is mentioned here to bring out the resemblance between it and the representation of it, which is also partly a misrepresentation, under the form of an exchange or substitution of the innocent for the guilty. Those who support this latter theory do so on the ground that expiatory sacrifice generally takes the form of the offering of a victim in place of the guilty persons. They regard the ritual of such sacrifice as marking this transposition. An innocent victim is chosen, the priest lays his hands upon it in token of the substitution, then its blood is shed, and the blood signifies the life of the offerers which is then made over to God. Evidence to support this explanation is sought in the Jewish sacrifice, and the scapegoat is regarded as the best illustration.
“This interpretation of expiatory sacrifice needs to be supplemented by other aspects. Taken independently it may hold good of certain primitive sacrifices where religious worship is debased by the intrusion of magic. But it does not do justice to all the features of Jewish sacrifice, and it is worth noting that in the example of the scapegoat which best suits the view there is no slaying or shedding of blood of the victim. When then this aspect is converted into a rigid theory of our Lord’s sacrifice, great caution is needed. Its exponents suggest that our Lord, like the scapegoat, suffers in place of man and endures all the penalties which, if he had not taken the place of man, man would have suffered. Now, as was said, there is a truth imbedded in the theory, and many outside the Church are under the impression that the theory without qualification contains the whole Christian and Catholic doctrine of the Redemption. Hence many minds have been turned away scandalized. Not without some justification they regard the conception of God contained in the view indefensible. We have no longer the “Our Father” of Christ but a pagan God who maltreats the innocent because his lust for punishment must be sated. And even if the justice of God, as it is claimed, demand the punishment either of the guilty or the guiltless, there is far too great an insistence on that justice as distinct from the divine mercy. This quality of mercy is everywhere present in Christian theology, and the Christian God is no Rhadamanthus who ruthlessly condemns the innocent to suffer in place of the guilty. It should be added that the theory does not work out, because the death of Christ ought, if it is a substitute for the death of man, to procure a release for all mankind from the penalty of death.

“The aspect of substitution, therefore, if pressed, cannot be maintained as a complete explanation of the Redemption. Undoubtedly there are traces of it at least as a theory among certain of the Fathers, but almost always the theory is an exaggeration of what is straightforward and accurate. As was said above, the theory needs a small but important emendation to be wholly right, and it is because the meaning of our Lord’s sacrifice was never lost in the tradition of the Church that the somewhat ambiguous statement of it in terms of vicarious suffering has always been intelligible and, when properly understood, accurate.

“The immaturity of both the above theories led to a more sophisticated explanation when theology first began to be scholastic. This explanation is what is called the theory or aspect of Satisfaction, and its author was St. Anselm. As might be expected, St. Anselm avoids the crudities inherent in the preceding views, and starts with the premise that sin is an offence against God. Now since sin against God is an infinite wrong, and since the honour of God must needs be vindicated, only Christ the God-Man could repair this wrong, appease the justice of God, and save mankind from the fate in which sin involved them. Hence the Redemption of Christ is morally necessary, and Christ by his willing acceptance of Calvary makes abundant reparation, manifests the justice of God, and obtains propitiation and redemption for all mankind.

“The faultiness of the view lies in this, that it is still too rigid, too coloured by legal ideas. God is not bound to enforce an infinite satisfaction. If that is given by Christ, there must be some special motive attending his voluntary act. Again it is not clear why and how Christ, who is innocent, offers satisfaction for the guilty and transfers the merit which is his to those to whom it does not belong. Once again, therefore, we have a truth recognisable, indeed, in the form of which it is expressed, but nevertheless imperfectly expressed and therefore open to serious misinterpretation.

continued . . .
 
continuation . . .

“The worst exaggerations of the theory of substitution are to be found in Protestant writings and were the cause of that reaction which has taken the form of denying any objective factor in the Redemption. The Redemption is the appeal of love and nothing more. Such a formula is far too narrow for the Catholic tradition and, as was said, is irreconcilable with the clear teaching of St. Paul. The Redemption is for him a supernatural transaction which involves a change of status. But this objective fact does not exclude love, and so it is perfectly legitimate to try to co-ordinate all of the various aspects under the motif of charity, so long as the supernatural character of the Redemption is kept intact. St. Paul indeed always falls back in the last resort on the agency of love when he wishes to enter more deeply into the mystery of the Redemption. Isaias had already told the Jews that God loves with an eternal love, and St. Paul in his letter to the Romans develops this same thought. When we were ungodly, Christ died for us. Whereas scarcely will one die even for a just man, yet when we were as yet sinners God showed his charity to us. ** (Romans v 6-9) ** But there are certain laws which must accompany such an unmerited gift as the supernatural life. That gift makes us children of God and as such it is essential that we should be docile and make a return of filial love. We must recognise the generosity of God who makes himself our Father, since that predestination is “to the praise of the glory of his grace.”

“The prelude to the drama of the Redemption lies in the refusal of man’s first representative to give God obedience and filial love. This refusal has certain consequences which are worked out by St. Paul, especially in the Epistle to the Romans, and these consequences can be viewed conveniently from man’s side and from God’s side. Since mankind has been blind to the super-abounding charity of God and, instead of making a return of filial love, preferred the natural, we might expect a providence which educated man to recognise and appreciate the supernatural as a gift. This providence takes two forms: the majority of men are made to learn humility or at any rate the bankruptcy of the natural by being left to a degree to their own devices. This is the story of the Gentiles. They are not favoured like the Jews. The nemesis of the first refusal works itself out in their history; they learn by bitter experience how evil a thing it is to have relied on themselves instead of God.; and in the darkness they yearn for a great light. ”Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God or given thanks: but became vain in their thoughts. And their foolish heart was darkened. For, professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.” ** (Romans i 21 and 22) ** But the bitter experience has for its effect that the Magi look for the King of the Jews, and the Gentiles are more ready for the good news than the chosen people.

“The Gentiles learn then by a law of consequences the value of God’s gift as a gift, and any incitement to pride and self-sufficiency has been removed by the loss of integrity which brought a realisation a weakness of mind and will. One race however, the Jews, is selected in order to show the way back to God; it is educated gradually by the revelation of a moral code of natural law and by a religion which is only partially supernatural. The religion enforces obedience to God. “The Lord saith . . .” Repentence and sorrow with strict punishments to leave no room for misapprehension are part too of the education, and lastly the worship is embodied in a sacrifice, which shatters the illusion of self-sufficiency. The act of oblation symbolises homage and the surrender of ourself to God. It is the preamble to that gift which will be the sign of true filial love, the offering of Calvary.

“On man’s side then the rejection of the supernatural are seen, as the ninth to the eleventh chapters of the Epistle to the Romans explain, in the experience of loneliness and the folly of self-satisfaction, and secondly in the long and necessarily severe training of the race which is chosen to prepare the way back to the supernatural. Throughout, the plan is governed by love, and God uses the rod of punishment to drive in a lesson which was essential for appreciation of the duties and privileges of supernatural love.

“On God’s side love, as it was said, is the prevailing motive. As all-holy his rejection of sin is automatic and necessary. The Old Testament speaks of him too as angry, and St. Paul uses the same language. What is all-holy cannot be unaffected by sin, and, God would not be seen as God by us were not his attitude toward evil described under the term “anger.” Nevertheless St. Paul generally uses the future tense when he describes God as angry in the strict sense, and at other times he is thinking more of the anger of a parent who corrects in order to educate, or he is setting forth the natural law and consequence of sin as falling under the disapproval of the Author of nature. For St. Paul it is always the charity or the wisdom of God which comes to the fore in the long run. God’s love gives the initiative to a return from man’s side. Even before the Incarnation the hope of the supernatural is restored because a title of sonship is given which some day will bring those who have faith to the enjoyment of eternal life in Christ. But what God will not do is to give back the inheritance before the lesson is learnt. For that reason the law cannot give life; it is but a pedagogue, and all have to experience the absence of the supernatural, “that no flesh may glory before God.”

continued . . .
 
continuation . . .

“The full measure of God’s love however is not made clear till the coming of Christ. “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.” First, Christ gave the finishing touches to that long education which was so necessary. He proves first of all the truth of God’s friendship, and his attitude to the Father is the sublime pattern of what filial friendship should be, the friendship which man had refused. His food is to do the will of his Father; he does not snatch at an equality of honour with god. He is therefore the exact opposite of all that self-sufficiency which had stood in the way of the original divine design.” – The Teaching of the Catholic Church, Vol. I, Chap. XIV: “Christ, Priest and Redeemer,” pp 497-502

The foregoing is rather long, but I knew there was not going to be any way of properly condensing it any more than it already was. There is more, before these paragraphs and after them, that may be pertinent but, I think this should give a better perspective on the Church’s position on substitution.

God bless,
jd
 
That is awesome, JDaniel. I am going to read it more in-depth. Where can I find that book? Is it online for free?
 
That is awesome, JDaniel. I am going to read it more in-depth. Where can I find that book? Is it online for free?
Windfish:

Unfortunately, only a few essays are available online, and they are FREE. Google "The Teaching of the Catholic Church Smith. I think they can help you buy the books. There are two volumes. I was fortunate to have taken a class at school in the late 60’s and then I found the second book by accident in a bookstore just off the University of Miami’s campus. So, I have both volumes. But, different editions. The Index is in Volume II, unfortunately, but, you should get both books anyway.

Let me know of your success or failure.

God bless,
jd
 
continuation . . .

“The full measure of God’s love however is not made clear till the coming of Christ. “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.” First, Christ gave the finishing touches to that long education which was so necessary. He proves first of all the truth of God’s friendship, and his attitude to the Father is the sublime pattern of what filial friendship should be, the friendship which man had refused. His food is to do the will of his Father; he does not snatch at an equality of honour with god. He is therefore the exact opposite of all that self-sufficiency which had stood in the way of the original divine design.” – The Teaching of the Catholic Church, Vol. I, Chap. XIV: “Christ, Priest and Redeemer,” pp 497-502

“god” in the fourth line from the end above, should be “God,” with a capital “G”.

God bless,
jd
 
JDaniel;7740007:
continuation . . .
“The full measure of God’s love however is not made clear till the coming of Christ. “For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whoever believeth in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting.” First, Christ gave the finishing touches to that long education which was so necessary. He proves first of all the truth of God’s friendship, and his attitude to the Father is the sublime pattern of what filial friendship should be, the friendship which man had refused. His food is to do the will of his Father; he does not snatch at an equality of honour with god. He is therefore the exact opposite of all that self-sufficiency which had stood in the way of the original divine design.” – The Teaching of the Catholic Church
, Vol. I, Chap. XIV: “Christ, Priest and Redeemer,” pp 497-502 “god” in the fourth line from the end above, should be “God,” with a capital “G”.

God bless,
jd
This explanation clarifies the reality of the Atonement. Jesus became one with us **through the power of His love. **He identified Himself with us totally by living and dying for us. He raises us by being raised on the Cross but we have to respond to His sacrifice. We have to identify ourselves with Him by loving others as He loved us: “When you did it to one of the least of these you did it to me”. Then we shall fulfil His prayer that “they may be one as we are one” and be united with Him in heaven…
 
If this statement accurately represents the RCC view, then it is very clear that the RCC holds to the penal substitution doctrine (not mere theory) of atonement.

I’m not sure that I understand the caveat made at the beginning regarding the difference between, ‘instead of’ vs ‘on behalf of’, or ‘in the place of’. Don’t they mean essentially the same thing? If my wife says she’s going to the store and I say, ‘let me go instead of you’, wouldn’t that be the same as if I were to say, ‘let me go on your behalf’, or ‘in your place’?

Brendan had raised the argument that if there had been a Penal Substitution, then Christ would still be in eternal torments.This statement clearly answers that objection by pointing out Christ’s sufficiency as a sacrifice.
…since sin against God is an infinite wrong, and since the honour of God must needs be vindicated, only Christ the God-Man could repair this wrong, appease the justice of God, and save mankind from the fate in which sin involved them. Hence the Redemption of Christ is morally necessary, and Christ by his willing acceptance of Calvary makes abundant reparation, manifests the justice of God, and obtains propitiation and redemption for all mankind.
However, that last phrase doesn’t seem to fit in with Roman Catholic soteriology. As it says, ‘obtains propitiation and redemption for all mankind.’ is more Universalistic than anything else. And, it can’t read, ‘obtains possible propitiation and redemption for all mankind.’ That doesn’t seem to make sense. Nor can it read, ‘obtains propitiation and redemption only for those who believe.’ In that case it would be Calvinistic. The reason I say it doesn’t seem to fit is because, if Christ obtained it then there is no room for mankind to obtain it. :hmmm:
 
However, that last phrase doesn’t seem to fit in with Roman Catholic soteriology. As it says, ‘obtains propitiation and redemption for all mankind.’ is more Universalistic than anything else. And, it can’t read, ‘obtains possible propitiation and redemption for all mankind.’ That doesn’t seem to make sense. Nor can it read, ‘obtains propitiation and redemption only for those who believe.’ In that case it would be Calvinistic. The reason I say it doesn’t seem to fit is because, if Christ obtained it then there is no room for mankind to obtain it. :hmmm:
Christ has** redeemed** all mankind. He came for everyone not just the select few. But whether we are **saved **also depends on our response to His love.

A warm welcome to the forum!
 
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