How do Catholics vote outside the US? Especially in the UK

[EmilyAlexandra]

I mean taking the UK into an American war for corporate profit, and then lying to both the public and The House about the reasons for said war, is generally frowned upon. I mean he did win three elections, but him and his brand are now so toxic that its impossible for Labour to refuse.

With the benefit of hindsight, the invasion of Iraq was a mistake. I have no idea whether Tony Blair genuinely believed that the war was justified at the time. He claims that the intelligence convinced him that the war was necessary. It is true that there are some people for whom Blair’s legacy will forever be defined by Iraq, and those people will perhaps never forgive him for the mistakes that he made.

Blair aside, my point was that Corbyn’s supporters never seemed to understand that he was incompetent and unelectable. I understand that a small proportion of the UK population does share Corbyn’s far-left ideology. There is nothing wrong with being on the far left, but people do have to understand that the far left will never be electable. So, people who joined in singing “Oh, Jeremy Corbyn” have to understand that Jeremy Corbyn sabotaged the Labour Party’s chances of being in government. Some people are actually okay with that. I think there are many on the far left who aren’t actually interested in being in government; they enjoy being angry and self-righteous and living in an echo chamber, but they have little interest in actually changing anything.

What I can tell you is that if Blair is brought up in conversation someone will call him a war criminal, and from a perusal of the Daily Fail comments section (a notably right wing paper), it seems that is pretty evenly split left/right.

Or, as they call him in the comments section of the Daily Mail, “Tony Bliar”.

Most issues were like this–general agreement on the issue with the disagreement being over “how much” and “who pays, and how.” It’s a totally different world!

Yes, I think that is true in the UK too. A few weeks ago I was talking to a friend of mine who is almost wilfully ignorant of American current affairs. When I say wilfully ignorant, I mean she didn’t even know which candidate belonged to which party. (Honestly, I think she does it deliberately.) So, she was trying to get me to explain to her what the two parties stand for by telling her which one is the same as the Conservatives and which one is the same as Labour. I had to explain that, really, both of the main parties in the UK are somewhat similar to the Democrats: the Conservatives would more or less align with the centrists in the Democratic Party, while Labour would more or less align with the left wing of the Democratic Party. These are imprecise approximations, of course, but my point was that the British Conservative Party is for the most part more left wing and more liberal than Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton. My friend therefore remained confused about the Republican Party. We simply do not have a party that is analogous to it.

 

[PickyPicky]

Well, Midsomer is just Bucks, Berks and South Oxon, our bit’s good for trees, squirrel street gangs - and trips to Oxford

My neck of the woods is only spiritually Midsomer. Geographically it is further southwest. Somer, as it were.

 

[PickyPicky]

My friend therefore remained confused about the Republican Party. We simply do not have a party that is analogous to it.

Although the Tories have been gradually drifting in that direction. It becomes increasingly difficult to determine where the Christian Democrat / Macmillanite Middle Way has gone.

 

[Kaninchen]

Somer, as it were.

Can’t move for Moggies, by all accounts.

 

[PickyPicky]

Yep, they’re loose on the Common, as it were.

 

[Inquisitor85]

Blair aside, my point was that Corbyn’s supporters never seemed to understand that he was incompetent and unelectable. I understand that a small proportion of the UK population does share Corbyn’s far-left ideology. There is nothing wrong with being on the far left, but people do have to understand that the far left will never be electable. So, people who joined in singing “Oh, Jeremy Corbyn” have to understand that Jeremy Corbyn sabotaged the Labour Party’s chances of being in government.

This I basically agree with, I think he had a slim chance in 2017, largely due to electoral incompetence from May.

I think there are many on the far left who aren’t actually interested in being in government; they enjoy being angry and self-righteous and living in an echo chamber, but they have little interest in actually changing anything.

This is interesting, a lot of far leftists don’t like electoral politics seeing elections as reforming a broken system instead of affecting deep systemic change. That said there are several different ideas on whether American leftists should get involved in this election, and what is the best strategy.

My friend therefore remained confused about the Republican Party. We simply do not have a party that is analogous to it.

Whatever odious vehicle Nigel Farage is currently hitched up to, disband the NHS, relaxation of handgun restrictions, reducing immigration by questionable means and trickle down economics. Sounds like a Republican election platform, if they could be bothered to actually produce one.

 

[Polak]

An example of why I don’t consider the Conservative Party conservative anymore and won’t vote for them.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1301783393974325249

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

I don’t consider the Conservative Party conservative anymore

I think it’s been quite a while since the Conservative Party was particularly conservative on social or moral issues.

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

Also one should remember that some on the right wing of the Conservative Party are actually more libertarian than conservative and could not care less if people are gay. For some people, political affiliation is full of contradictions and can even seem somewhat arbitrary. Cyril Smith, for example, switched from Labour to the Liberals, but was not actually very liberal. The party leadership dreaded the perennial debates on the death penalty, because Smith was one of its most enthusiastic proponents in the House of Commons. He was also keen on corporal punishment to the extent that he acquired a bizarre role administering it to his constituents. In some ways, Smith was about as liberal as Harvey Proctor.

 

[Polak]

One shouldn’t confuse the left with liberalism. Michael Portillo and Alan Duncan, for example, were both rather right-wing Conservative MPs who were also socially liberal. Duncan is openly gay; Portillo admitted to having had a relationship with a man before he married his wife.

Well I would normally not associate the right with liberalism, so the fact that so many ‘conservatives’ in the UK are so liberal on social issues, pretty much takes away their conservative authenticity in my eyes.

Indeed, Thatcher herself was something of a contradiction. Publicly, she pursued anti-gay policies, while she was in private remarkably tolerant of homosexuals. She also supported legal abortion.

What do you mean she was ‘tolerant of homosexuals’ in private? You can be against gay marriage and gay sexual relations, but still be very tolerant of homosexuals. She may not have agreed with it but had many homosexual friends for instance, as do many Christians.

I think it’s been quite a while since the Conservative Party was particularly conservative on social or moral issues.

Yes and that’s why it’s been quite a while since the Conservative Party was actually conservative. Heck, there was even a time when the Labour Party was more conservative on moral issues than the Conservative Party is now.

Yep, and that isn’t enough to call yourself conservative in my view.

 

[Polak]

British Polish you could say

 

[EmilyAlexandra]

Well I would normally not associate the right with liberalism

My point, really, was that “the right” in this context means proponents of the economic policies of Thatcherism, such as privatisation, lower taxes, lower public spending, less regulation, and a reduced role for trade unions. There are, and to some extent always have been, those on the right who hold conservative economic viewpoints together with more liberal outlooks on social and moral issues. I think that your definition of conservatism would apply more to somebody like Norman Tebbit, who has more or less out of public life for almost 30 years.

What do you mean she was ‘tolerant of homosexuals’ in private? You can be against gay marriage and gay sexual relations, but still be very tolerant of homosexuals. She may not have agreed with it but had many homosexual friends for instance, as do many Christians.

What I mean is that in public Mrs Thatcher pursued an aggressively anti-gay agenda. She didn’t just maintain the status quo, but actually hardened the country’s stance against homosexuality. In private, however, she was remarkably tolerant towards Tory politicians who became involved in scandals touching on homosexual behaviour and even paedophilia, Peter Morrison being perhaps the prime example. This seems to have been very much Thatcher’s approach in balancing her public pronouncements with her personal responses to scandals involving the private lives of her colleagues. The leniency with which she treated Cecil Parkinson was extraordinary. (In case you are too young to remember Parkinson, in short, he was married and he got his secretary pregnant. Thatcher wanted to promote him to foreign secretary despite knowing about the affair and the pregnancy, but he declined. He was eventually forced to resign, but Thatcher brought him back into her Cabinet. He never met his daughter, refused any kind of communication with her, and left her nothing after his death, despite knowing that she is disabled and requires 24/7 care.)

Heck, there was even a time when the Labour Party was more conservative on moral issues than the Conservative Party is now.

Well, it was always said that Labour owed more to Methodism than it did to Marxism. Believing in common ownership does not necessarily mean abjuring traditional moral values.

 

[Montrose]

British Polish you could say

What is the alternative to the Conservative Party? The loonie left??

 

[EugeneCharles]

Hello EmilyAlexandra!

Ehh, well, here in the Philippines, we vote up like sardines stocked on a can, ready to be sold abroad, but not always. I’m of Spanish, Chinese and Filipino descent, but we live here in the Philippines. I’m just 16 years old, 2 years more so that I can legally vote. Nowadays, we are up for registration of voters via Facebook. It’s just fascinating that most Filipinos are Catholics, but they are often criticized for poor Catechism, which I don’t think to be true. Last 2 years, the Archdiocese gave a list of people that we can vote as Catholics, as we know in the past few years Duterte issued extra-judicial killings, which is against the teachings of the Church. I love my country because of its long tradition and loyalty to the Pope and the Church. Uhh! I wish that I can see you all good people.

 

[Montrose]

Ehh, well, here in the Philippines, we vote up like sardines stocked on a can, ready to be sold abroad, but not always. I’m of Spanish, Chinese and Filipino descent, but we live here in the Philippines. I’m just 16 years old, 2 years more so that I can legally vote. Nowadays, we are up for registration of voters via Facebook. It’s just fascinating that most Filipinos are Catholics, but they are often criticized for poor Catechism, which I don’t think to be true. Last 2 years, the Archdiocese gave a list of people that we can vote as Catholics, as we know in the past few years Duterte issued extra-judicial killings, which is against the teachings of the Church. I love my country because of its long tradition and loyalty to the Pope and the Church. Uhh! I wish that I can see you all good people.

I am British but have lived in the Philippines (Metro Manila) for 18 years and I have found that filipinos in general are devout Catholics but they have not been well catechised.

 

[EugeneCharles]

Hello Montrose!

Really? Yeah, they are really devout to God, but they are not really Catechised in a formal way like those of in the U.S. I dream to become a Catechist someday. Are you a priest, nun or seminarian?

 

[Montrose]

Hello Montrose!

Really? Yeah, they are really devout to God, but they are not really Catechised in a formal way like those of in the U.S. I dream to become a Catechist someday. Are you a priest, nun or seminarian?

I am retired - a pensioner (male) and a Catholic.

 

[EugeneCharles]

Oh, Sir! Please, pray for me, so that someday I can be a Catechist or maybe a priest. How’s England today, Sir?

 

[Elf01]

There are, and to some extent always have been, those on the right who hold conservative economic viewpoints together with more liberal outlooks on social and moral issues. I think that your definition of conservatism would apply more to somebody like Norman Tebbit, who has more or less out of public life for almost 30 years.

Interestingly I’m the opposite, I’m economically liberal, but socially conserative.

 

[Rau]

It seems clear that for Catholics in the US, religion and politics are closely intertwined.

I think it would be unwise to view the opinions of Catholics on CAF as necessarily reflective of the views of Catholics in the US generally.