How do Christians determine morality?

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hanba2han:
The Bible permits marriage with girls who have reached puberty, does it not?
And so, from a Christian point of view, how is this now considered immoral?
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What’s this about girls and puberty? Have you proved Aisha had reached puberty or are you assuming it and taking it to be fact?
 
jack_hawkins said:
Could you expand on that at all?
How much do you know of the Bible? Which part of the Bible do you believe is being contradicted?
When you mention Aisha, it is rather odd you should want to focus on Christian morals except as a diversionary tactic?
BTW how do you square Mohammed’s life with the Bible - or are you going to claim the Bible has been corrupted?
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Why would he need to square Mohammed’s life with the Bible? It was written by Jews and Christians, who are unbelievers, and are all going to die for their lack of faith in Allah and his messenger.
 
junk said:
Although I’m not certain whether the Bible does indeed contain such passages, I think you may have a point. As far as I know, marriage and relations with girls who have reached puberty was traditionally permitted by Christians. Mary conceived and got married to Joseph at age 13, though she was always a virgin.

The problem is that Aisha was apparently 9 years old and not 12 or 13. I’m not sure how you could justify that.

To be honest, I would personally be disgusted at the idea of an older man marrying a 12 year old nowadays, though I don’t believe it’s against God’s law for the reasons you’ve stated.
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Why are you stating, as fact, that Mary was 12 years old? We have no inspired Christian writings which tell us the age that Mary was when she conceived her Son. When I was in Catholic School, we learned that Mary was likely around 15.
By contrast, the Islamic hadiths specifically record that Aisha was 9.
 
guanophore said:
Why would he need to square Mohammed’s life with the Bible? It was written by Jews and Christians, who are unbelievers, and are all going to die for their lack of faith in Allah and his messenger.
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…but Muslims claim to hold the Bible holy “in it’s original form”, whilst claiming without basis it has been totally corrupted by said “people of the Book”. Yes, it is probably a silly question in the circumstances:o
 
Yes, how do they determine morality?

Is morality based on the Bible?
Is morality based on Personal Opinion?
Is morality based on Public Opinion?
Is morality based on Culture?
Or is morality based on a combination of all these?

The age of Mary is a prime example.

Just nearly every culture up to a certain point believed that once a child reached puberty, that child ready to be married. It is easier to determine the puberty state with a female then a male.

If a girl reached puberty at 9 then she was fair game.

The plain truth of the matter is that “What is Immoral Now” was “Moral” way back when.

Torture was moral way back then, now we shudder at it now.

Public executions were moral back then, now it is so immoral that it is hidden.

Forbidding a black person was moral, now it is not.

Forbidding a woman to vote was moral, now it is not.

etc, etc, etc.
 
Eden said:
Why are you stating, as fact, that Mary was 12 years old? We have no inspired Christian writings which tell us the age that Mary was when she conceived her Son. When I was in Catholic School, we learned that Mary was likely around 15.
By contrast, the Islamic hadiths specifically record that Aisha was 9.
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No, I didn’t say Mary was 12. I said she was 13, though I’ve heard 15 too. You are correct that there are no inspired Christian writings and we can’t know for certain. Just reporting what I’ve heard.

I said
The problem is that Aisha was apparently 9 years old and not 12 or 13. I’m not sure how you could justify that.
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I said 12 or 13 because that was not considered unusual back then and not in reference to Mary’s age. But I also said that marriage at 9 years old seems unjustifiable to me.

I wanted to point out that even though marriage at a very young age was not unusual, conceding that point to the OP, marriage at age 9 would have probably been unjustifiable even by ancient standards.

I apologise for being vague. I’m tired.
 
Not every moral question has to be answered from direct teachings in scripture. For example, eugenics and animal rights are moral questions that cannot be answered directly from the Bible, yet Christians are still concerned about such questions.

What I feel is that much if not all of the teachings of Jesus Christ (not necessarily the Church) are general and eternal - at least transcending time and culture.

The Church does teach and make pronouncements about specific moral issues as it must provide guidance applicable to its time. However, I very much doubt the original basis of its pronouncements have that specificity.

In contrast, because Muslims view Muhammad as the model for humanity forever and the fount of all Muslim morality, there is a specificity in Muslim morality that is lacking in Christianity. To Muslims, whatever Muhammad did must be good and moral without question.

Thus, they cannot see how a 53 year old man having sexual relations with a pre-pubescent nine year old child is wrong/immoral because Muhammad did so. In fact, they are totally incredulous that anyone else can view such behavior with moral outrage. Pedophilia is as moral as motherhood to Muslims, it seems.

Hence we have a Muslim poster who has to ask where the Christians derive their sense of morality in order to come up with the idea that pedophilia is a rotten thing to do.
 
yes hate can definitely be just - as Ecclesiastes says, there is a time for everything.
 
junk said:
Although I’m not certain whether the Bible does indeed contain such passages, I think you may have a point. As far as I know, marriage and relations with girls who have reached puberty was traditionally permitted by Christians. Mary conceived and got married to Joseph at age 13, though she was always a virgin.

The problem is that Aisha was apparently 9 years old and not 12 or 13. I’m not sure how you could justify that.

To be honest, I would personally be disgusted at the idea of an older man marrying a 12 year old nowadays, though I don’t believe it’s against God’s law for the reasons you’ve stated.
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How do you know Mary was 13 when she conceived. Someone said as much on another thread (although he may have said 12) and was metaphorically crucified for suggesting this.
 
We are to follow what God has told us in the Bible in order to know right from wrong. 2 Tim 3:16 refers to the Bible as that which is inspired,(God breathed). Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us that the teaching magesterium of the church or that traditions are inspired of God. Read God Word, the Bible, and it will show you what is pleasing to God. 👍 :bible1:
 
I guess I was mistaken, there is no specific verse in the Bible which specifies the minimum age for marriage… but it does not prohibit the practice of marrying young girls to much older men either.

Exodus 21:7-11 (New American Standard Bible)
7"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free (B)as the male slaves do.
8"If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
9"If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
10"If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
11"If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.

First of all, the daughter did not have any choice to be sold off by her father, married off by her master to either himself or his son.

Also, the fact that the master can either marry her or marry her off to his son, means that she is most likely to be his daughter’s age and younger than his son!! So he’s probably at least 30+ years older than her. Yet, he himself (her father’s age or even MUCH older) can marry her.

Numbers 31:17-18 (New International Version)
17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man,
18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

In the Torah (In the Book of Numbers in the Bible), after the conquest of Midian and Moab, and the great venereal plague, Moses (peace be on him) ordered that all the women “who have known a man” be killed but that “all the young girls, who have not known a man by lying with him” be kept alive for the Israelites.

Since the only females left fit for marriage and wholesome relations were prepubescent virgins, a Jewish law concerning child marriage was enacted. That law is found in the Babylonian Talmud:

**"Rabbi Joseph said, ‘Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.’

Mishnah: A girl of the age of 3 years and a day may be betrothed, subject to her father’s approval, by sexual intercourse.

Gemara: Our Rabbis taught: ‘A girl of the age of 3 years may be betrothed by sexual intercourse.’ "**

Having pointed out these verses in Jewish and Christian scriptures, I have to say that I just cannot believe that Prophet Moses (pbuh) can issue such an order that permits sex with 3-year old captives.

As a Muslim, I therefore do not accept the truth of these verses.
 
Citations please.

The purpose of the comments in Talmud regarding 3 year old girls is to emphasize that a victim of sexual abuse 3 years or younger still retains their virginity. Among other things, a woman who was a virgin when she married was entitled to more money in the event her husband divorced her. So this was ensuring that the victim of such abuse would be treated legally as a virgin.

But again, I’m only guessing because no citations were provided.

I happen to have the babylonian talmud on CD so I’ll do a search if needed.
 
hamba2han,

You’re assuming that the only purpose of every book of the Bible was to be a straightforward guide of absolute moral laws for all times and places, which is not true. It is this unfounded assumption that leads you to the other conclusions you make of “contradictions”.
 
jack_hawkins said:
…but Muslims claim to hold the Bible holy “in it’s original form”, whilst claiming without basis it has been totally corrupted by said “people of the Book”. Yes, it is probably a silly question in the circumstances:o
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This is a good example of Muslims not acting in accordance with what they say they believe. If they really believed that he original was inspiried, then they would be bound to abide by it, which they consider that they are not.
 
no references to a Rabbi Joseph in the Talmud. I’ll try the search with just Joseph
 
Valke2 said:
Citations please.

The purpose of the comments in Talmud regarding 3 year old girls is to emphasize that a victim of sexual abuse 3 years or younger still retains their virginity. Among other things, a woman who was a virgin when she married was entitled to more money in the event her husband divorced her. So this was ensuring that the victim of such abuse would be treated legally as a virgin.

But again, I’m only guessing because no citations were provided.

I happen to have the babylonian talmud on CD so I’ll do a search if needed.
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That’s an interesting take on the practice. I think we should be more mindful of the fact that a lot of the ancient practices were reponses to tough conditions, and as such, they presume activities that today we might find shocking.
 
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