How do Christians determine morality?

[Valke2]

**"Rabbi Joseph said, ‘Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.’ **

There are two instances in the Babylonian Talmud where R. Joseph is quoted with the opening words “Come and Hear”. The first instance is in Sanhedrin 14b. This has to do with punishment for certian persons who rebell against a ruling of the Sanhedrin. No little girls there. The other instance is in Sanhedrin 13a, which involves a discussion on whether fowl can be served with cheese. THe most amazing thing about this tractate is that I found it interesting. So for that I thank you.

 

[pro_universal]

**"Rabbi Joseph said, ‘Come and hear. A maiden aged 3 years and a day may be acquired in marriage by coition.’ **

There are two instances in the Babylonian Talmud where R. Joseph is quoted with the opening words “Come and Hear”. The first instance is in Sanhedrin 14b. This has to do with punishment for certian persons who rebell against a ruling of the Sanhedrin. No little girls there. The other instance is in Sanhedrin 13a, which involves a discussion on whether fowl can be served with cheese. THe most amazing thing about this tractate is that I found it interesting. So for that I thank you.

Inquiring minds want to know:

Can fowl be served with cheese?

 

[hamba2han]

There are two instances in the Babylonian Talmud where R. Joseph is quoted with the opening words “Come and Hear”. The first instance is in Sanhedrin 14b. This has to do with punishment for certian persons who rebell against a ruling of the Sanhedrin. No little girls there. The other instance is in Sanhedrin 13a, which involves a discussion on whether fowl can be served with cheese. THe most amazing thing about this tractate is that I found it interesting. So for that I thank you.

Try Sanhedrin 7/55B and (Mishnah Niddah 5:4)

 

[Valke2]

There are two instances in the Babylonian Talmud where R. Joseph is quoted with the opening words “Come and Hear”. The first instance is in Sanhedrin 14b. This has to do with punishment for certian persons who rebell against a ruling of the Sanhedrin. No little girls there. The other instance is in Sanhedrin 13a, which involves a discussion on whether fowl can be served with cheese. THe most amazing thing about this tractate is that I found it interesting. So for that I thank you.

Inquiring minds want to know:

Can fowl be served with cheese?

Alas, no. ALthough Rabbi Joseph said fowl and cheese can be served at the same table. The law sided with Rabbi Hillel’s more restrictive stance.

THe whole thing burns my bacon because technically, fowl is not meat (in Jewish law) and the prohibtion regarding chicken and cheese exists because if a jew were observed eating fowl and cheese, someone might mistakenly think he was eating meat and cheese, and thereofre think it is ok to eat meat and cheese.

 

[jack_hawkins]

but it does not prohibit the practice of marrying young girls to much older men either

you have to concede this is a stupid argument
the Koran doesn’t prohibit bestiality either - are you saying it’s OK in Islam?
The Talmud has zilch to do with Christianity
unfortunately you read other writings in the light of the Koran, and your overdone protests are frankly laughable considering what you will swallow!
shall we talk about dipping flies in your drink, drinking camel’s urine or the use of the three stones

 

[ricmat]

How do Christians determine morality?

I’m not sure this approach has been mentioned yet:

Firstly, we believe that God gave everyone a conscience, on which the “natural law” was inscribed. But this concience can sometimes be misled.

So God gave us a written morality - the 10 commandments, which we all share. In addition, Christians and Jews share the Wisdom books in the bible which go into more detail.

Christians believe that Jesus further came as the incarnation of Wisdom = Law. And Jesus expressed this law in the beatitudes, and also very simply as Love God above all else, and love your neighbor as yourself.

Of course, times change. Neither the 10 commandments, the Wisdom books, or Jesus said anything about e.g. manufacturing human embryos for the purpose of stem cell research. So for many questions, especially “new” ones, an authority is needed beyond the bible.

As mentioned above, Jesus instituted the Church, and granted it authority to make decisions regarding faith and morals. We call this office within the Church (Catholic) the magesterium. The magesterium of course looks to the bible for guidance, but they also look to Tradition, and also use the faculties of reason (which should never be in conflict with properly interpreted scripture, or with Tradition).

 

[Sixtus]

By the teachings of their respective church, by their internalised values which are socially transmitted and by their shared understanding of sacred scripture in the light of their personal experience

 

[Montalban]

The religious authorities in Islam cannot make rulings which are contradictory to what is found in the Qur’an and the Sunnah which are the sayings and actions of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

However, in cases where there might appear to be some contradiction between the two, the Qur’an is always given greater weight over the Sunnah when determing matters of faith.

And you have the rule of ‘abrogation’ for when verses in the Koran ‘seem’ to contradict.

 

[jack_hawkins]

I like that phrase - “appear” to contradict
and of course the tried and tested method of ignoring the Hadiths you don’t like…
like dipping the fly back in your drink
drinking camel’s urine
etc etc

 

[Montalban]

I like that phrase - “appear” to contradict
and of course the tried and tested method of ignoring the Hadiths you don’t like…
like dipping the fly back in your drink
drinking camel’s urine
etc etc

“Appear to contradict” as in “There’s no compulsion in religion” and “Slay the idolators where ever you find them”

To the un-trained eye (read: non-moslem) these two verses only “appear to contradict”

 

[jack_hawkins]

naturally - any Muslim knows these verses apply to different situations eg
the first one applies when speaking in public in English to the public and gullible politicians
the second one applies when in the mosque speaking Arabic and laughing about the infidels with your mates!

 

[hamba2han]

“Appear to contradict” as in “There’s no compulsion in religion” and “Slay the idolators where ever you find them”

To the un-trained eye (read: non-moslem) these two verses only “appear to contradict”

Aah, I forgot to mention that aspect of morality according to Islam.

Thanks for bringing it up.

You see, when two or more verses in the Qur’an “appear to contradict” one another – they do not at all actually contradict when the passages are read in full, nevertheless Muslims will always refer to the Sunnah in order to clear up any confusion.

Over the past 1,400 years, it has worked very well for us indeed.

As I have mentioned in an earlier post, think of the Qur’an as the map to guide us in the journey of life and think of the Sunnah as the legend by which to correctly read this map and enable us to safely arrive at our intended destination in the Hereafter.

 

[jack_hawkins]

worked very well?
are you sure?
how come there’s so many Islamists who take the sword verses as unabrogated then?

 

[Montalban]

Aah, I forgot to mention that aspect of morality according to Islam.

Thanks for bringing it up.

That’s what I’m here for

Over the past 1,400 years, it has worked very well for us indeed.

IF it weren’t for all the legal pressures you place upon people you’d not have quite as many Moslems now.

 

[hamba2han]

worked very well?
are you sure?
how come there’s so many Islamists who take the sword verses as unabrogated then?

Christianity has room for only one Pope at any given point in time and yet there are still so many denominations of the Church in the world.

Islam, on the other hand, has room for over 1 billion individual ‘Popes’ and yet there are not nearly as many denominations in the Muslim world as compared to Christendom.

 

[jack_hawkins]

Right…
actually there is more than one Pope for one thing
you confuse the Catholic Church with Christianity as a whole inc Protestant denominations
I don’t believe there are 30,000 denominations anyway - it’s one of these spurious repeated without any source being given - if it is anything like the mythical figure given for iatrogenous deaths in conventional medicine by alternative medicine “fans” it is out by one or two logs

 

[Montalban]

Christianity has room for only one Pope at any given point in time and yet there are still so many denominations of the Church in the world.

The Copts are Christian, and they have a pope. Catholics same (just different pope).

Islam, on the other hand, has room for over 1 billion individual ‘Popes’ and yet there are not nearly as many denominations in the Muslim world as compared to Christendom.

We tolerate diverse opinion.

Look what’s happening in Iraq

 

[Jayda]

I would have thought that they would refer to the teachings of Christianity as found in the Bible in order to determine whether something is morally right or not.

However, after reading the comments of Christians in threads such as ‘Aisha’, I just cannot believe that these people are referring to the Bible when deciding matters of morality.

hola,

Morality is obedience to God by obeying the scriptures and sacred tradition together. we do not believe that the sole source of revelation is scripture, and we do not believe that there are any other ways of interpreting scripture than what the Church teaches under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

i do not know exactly what comments you are referring to in the Aisha thread but if there is any Catholic who agrees with it they are speaking heresy… the Church defines six offenses against Chastity (which is a major sin) they are according to the Catechism (2351-56): lust, masturbation, fornication, pornography, prostitution and rape. according to the Catechism at 2353 fornication is a carnal union between unmarried people, and corruption of the young (before age 15 for girls)… so that relationship was very sinful and impossible to justify in Catholicism.

Dios te bendiga

 

[hamba2han]

You’re assuming that the only purpose of every book of the Bible was to be a straightforward guide of absolute moral laws for all times and places, which is not true.

Let me ask Christians another question.

Since the time that God sent down the Ten Commandments and henceforth all the laws as found in the Bible today, do you think there has been any significant change in the way human beings think and behave?

Do humans have different physiological needs today as compared to thousands of years ago when the divine laws were delivered to humankind?

I do not believe that we are any different at all in our basic physical and mental needs as compared to the people who lived during the time of Moses and later on Jesus (pbut).

To put things into perspective then:

The creations has not changed,
The Creator has not changed,
Heaven and Hell presumably has not changed as well

And so, why have many Christians today accorded themselves the privilege of EITHER not needing to obey the Commandments and all the teachings on morality as written in the Bible… OR to individually interpret these laws based on “modern-day” considerations?

 

[hamba2han]

hola,

Morality is obedience to God by obeying the scriptures and sacred tradition together. we do not believe that the sole source of revelation is scripture, and we do not believe that there are any other ways of interpreting scripture than what the Church teaches under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

i do not know exactly what comments you are referring to in the Aisha thread but if there is any Catholic who agrees with it they are speaking heresy… the Church defines six offenses against Chastity (which is a major sin) they are according to the Catechism (2351-56): lust, masturbation, fornication, pornography, prostitution and rape. according to the Catechism at 2353 fornication is a carnal union between unmarried people, and corruption of the young (before age 15 for girls)… so that relationship was very sinful and impossible to justify in Catholicism.

Dios te bendiga

You are holding on to the teachings of your faith.

I can certainly respect that.

My comments about the ‘Aisha’ thread was regarding those Christians who judge the morality of others by not relying on the teachings that is written in their own scriptures.

I find that very odd.