How do 'Faith Alone' believers understand the Church at Sardis?

[Neil_Anthony]

In today’s reading at mass, Jesus had a message for the Church at Sardis, which made me wonder how ‘saved by faith alone’ people interpret it. Jesus said:

1 "To the angel of the church in Sardis, write this: " 'The one who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars says this: "I know your works, that you have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead.
2 Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.
3 Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you.
4 However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy.

The way I read it, Jesus is saying that some of the people have soiled their garments by their bad works or lack of good works, and that those people won’t be able to walk with Jesus. Doesn’t this show that we will be judged by our works?

 

[NDfan]

In today’s reading at mass, Jesus had a message for the Church at Sardis, which made me wonder how ‘saved by faith alone’ people interpret it. Jesus said:

The way I read it, Jesus is saying that some of the people have soiled their garments by their bad works or lack of good works, and that those people won’t be able to walk with Jesus. Doesn’t this show that we will be judged by our works?

Not exactly. Jesus is saying they continue to live in sin which is why HE tells them to repent. The people who do not have soiled garments obviously have repented.

I do believe our works will be judged because scripture tells us they will be. But I think the situation at Sardis is slightly different. It’s more comparable to the church in Corinth and the way they were behaving which prompted Paul’s letters.

PEACE

 

[389670]

In today’s reading at mass, Jesus had a message for the Church at Sardis, which made me wonder how ‘saved by faith alone’ people interpret it. Jesus said:

The way I read it, Jesus is saying that some of the people have soiled their garments by their bad works or lack of good works, and that those people won’t be able to walk with Jesus. Doesn’t this show that we will be judged by our works?

It is true beleivers will be judged for their works but they will not be judged for their sins since that was already done by Christ on the cross.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

It is true beleivers will be judged for their works but they will not be judged for their sins since that was already done by Christ on the cross.

Thank you for responding.
What is the difference between works and sins? Are sins bad works? Or is works just positive things?

 

[Steadfast]

Sola Fide does not mean that believers should not do good works or even that the good works they do have no value.

What it means is that our standing before God is based not in anything we do or bring but rather solely in His Grace which we enjoy by Faith Alone, this also being a Gift of God.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Sola Fide does not mean that believers should not do good works or even that the good works they do have no value.

What it means is that our standing before God is based not in anything we do or bring but rather solely in His Grace which we enjoy by Faith Alone, this also being a Gift of God.

Thank you for responding. In the passage I quoted, Jesus seems to be saying that only those who do good works will “walk with him”. Do you see what I mean? According to what you just said, “standing before God” isn’t based on anything we do. Is walking with Jesus different from “standing before God”?

(By the way, Catholics agree that we get to be with God ony by His Grace, but we understand grace as being not just the forgiveness of sins, but also God giving us the ability to do good works).

 

[Steadfast]

Again, it seems to speak to the idea that those who excel in practical holiness and good works will receive a better reward than those who are saved as through fire.

There is a larger context than just the Revelation to John for understanding the place of works in the lives of Christians. Taken together, I see nothing here that would contradict Sola Fide.

 

[389670]

Thank you for responding.
What is the difference between works and sins? Are sins bad works? Or is works just positive things?

Sins happen when we break the Law of God in thought and deed. Works are what we do. If the work is for the glory of God it is good. If the work is for something else like to get noticed they are not good in the sight of God.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Again, it seems to speak to the idea that those who excel in practical holiness and good works will receive a better reward than those who are saved as through fire.

There is a larger context than just the Revelation to John for understanding the place of works in the lives of Christians. Taken together, I see nothing here that would contradict Sola Fide.

So Sola Fide believers think that people will receive more reward if they do more good works? That’s encouraging to hear. I didn’t know that.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Sins happen when we break the Law of God in thought and deed. Works are what we do. If the work is for the glory of God it is good. If the work is for something else like to get noticed they are not good in the sight of God.

There must be some overlap between sin and works. If works are everything we do, then some sins must be bad works. And some sins would also be the lack of good works. For example, if I don’t give to support my church when I can, that is a sin, and its also the lack of a good work, right? Are we using the words the same way?

It is true beleivers will be judged for their works but they will not be judged for their sins since that was already done by Christ on the cross.

 

[389670]

There must be some overlap between sin and works. If works are everything we do, then some sins must be bad works. And some sins would also be the lack of good works. For example, if I don’t give to support my church when I can, that is a sin, and its also the lack of a good work, right? Are we using the words the same way?

I think of works as the fruit of the heart and its attitudes. If you do a “good work” and your attitude is not right before God its useless. i think I cor 13:3 speaks to this. On the positive side Jesus said that if you give a cup of cold water in His name you will not lose your reward.

 

[SIA]

There must be some overlap between sin and works. If works are everything we do, then some sins must be bad works. And some sins would also be the lack of good works. For example, if I don’t give to support my church when I can, that is a sin, and its also the lack of a good work, right? Are we using the words the same way?

In giving so much creedence to works, it shows a lack of faith and therefore a lack of trust in the Scriptures and ultimately a lack of the trust in Christ. Purgatory is ultimately the lack of belief in Christ’s complete work on the cross. It’s paranoia marinating in the questions of "what if my faith isn’t enough?’ and what if God is an angry judge?. These are the dangers of getting off track of the authority of Scripture. Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. James said that faith without works is dead. You have to do good works to cultivate your faith in Christ. It is the fertilizer to your faith. Without them, the faith goes dead. C.S. Lewis said, in the end when it is all said and done, it isn’t going to be what you did, it is going to be who you are with.

 

[leg]

In giving so much creedence to works, it shows a lack of faith and therefore a lack of trust in the Scriptures and ultimately a lack of the trust in Christ. Purgatory is ultimately the lack of belief in Christ’s complete work on the cross. It’s paranoia marinating in the questions of "what if my faith isn’t enough?’ and what if God is an angry judge?. These are the dangers of getting off track of the authority of Scripture. Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. James said that faith without works is dead. You have to do good works to cultivate your faith in Christ. It is the fertilizer to your faith. Without them, the faith goes dead. C.S. Lewis said, in the end when it is all said and done, it isn’t going to be what you did, it is going to be who you are with.

The Bible does not use the word purgatory any more than it uses the word Trinity. But just as it gives what is described by the word Trinity when we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, so it gives what is described by the word purgatory when it tells us that souls not bad enough for hell, and not good enough for heaven, will be purified after death in order to fit them for heaven. Thus St. Paul tells us in I Corinthians III., 15, that the soul which does not satisfactorily stand the test of judgment will be saved, but so as by fire. Whatever the nature of the fire of purification, it will mean a cleansing by suffering as opposed to the pleasures of the sins rendering it necessary.

 

[leg]

In giving so much creedence to works, it shows a lack of faith and therefore a lack of trust in the Scriptures and ultimately a lack of the trust in Christ. Purgatory is ultimately the lack of belief in Christ’s complete work on the cross. It’s paranoia marinating in the questions of "what if my faith isn’t enough?’ and what if God is an angry judge?. These are the dangers of getting off track of the authority of Scripture. Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. James said that faith without works is dead. You have to do good works to cultivate your faith in Christ. It is the fertilizer to your faith. Without them, the faith goes dead. C.S. Lewis said, in the end when it is all said and done, it isn’t going to be what you did, it is going to be who you are with.

But that has nothing whatever to do with the question of purgatory, unless you really think that we have no obligation to earn our heaven by being good, and that it does not therefore matter how much we sin. If they are your ideas, of course, yours must be a very comfortable religion. But it is not the Christian religion. St. Peter writes, “Brethren, labor the more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election.” Evidently good works are a contributing factor towards our salvation. St. Paul says, “With fear and trembling work out your salvation.” Your mistake lies in thinking that salvation is a free gift not requiring our cooperation. The truth is that our opportunity of salvation is the free gift of Christ which we could never have deserved. But granted that He has made salvation possible for us, it is necessary that we earn the right to benefit by it. Without Christ, no good works could have enabled us to save our souls. With Christ, our good works can do so; and He demands them of us; forbids sin; and will exact from all of us an account of the sins we have committed. And though we die with our sins forgiven, yet we will expiate them in purgatory. That blocks any idea that we can trade on God’s forgiveness and continue to sin whilst there is time to do so. Apart from revelation, the Catholic position is the only reasonable one, and thinking Protestants are beginning to realize it more and more. That is why many protestants are rapidly restoring the practice of prayer for the souls of the departed who may still be suffering in purgatory for their sins committed whilst on earth.

 

[Reuben_J]

The Bible does not use the word purgatory any more than it uses the word Trinity. But just as it gives what is described by the word Trinity when we are told to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, so it gives what is described by the word purgatory when it tells us that souls not bad enough for hell, and not good enough for heaven, will be purified after death in order to fit them for heaven. Thus St. Paul tells us in I Corinthians III., 15, that the soul which does not satisfactorily stand the test of judgment will be saved, but so as by fire. Whatever the nature of the fire of purification, it will mean a cleansing by suffering as opposed to the pleasures of the sins rendering it necessary.

But that has nothing whatever to do with the question of purgatory, unless you really think that we have no obligation to earn our heaven by being good, and that it does not therefore matter how much we sin. If they are your ideas, of course, yours must be a very comfortable religion. But it is not the Christian religion. St. Peter writes, “Brethren, labor the more that by good works you may make sure your calling and election.” Evidently good works are a contributing factor towards our salvation. St. Paul says, “With fear and trembling work out your salvation.” Your mistake lies in thinking that salvation is a free gift not requiring our cooperation. The truth is that our opportunity of salvation is the free gift of Christ which we could never have deserved. But granted that He has made salvation possible for us, it is necessary that we earn the right to benefit by it. Without Christ, no good works could have enabled us to save our souls. With Christ, our good works can do so; and He demands them of us; forbids sin; and will exact from all of us an account of the sins we have committed. And though we die with our sins forgiven, yet we will expiate them in purgatory. That blocks any idea that we can trade on God’s forgiveness and continue to sin whilst there is time to do so. Apart from revelation, the Catholic position is the only reasonable one, and thinking Protestants are beginning to realize it more and more. That is why many protestants are rapidly restoring the practice of prayer for the souls of the departed who may still be suffering in purgatory for their sins committed whilst on earth.

Excellent posts.

God bless you.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

In giving so much creedence to works, it shows a lack of faith and therefore a lack of trust in the Scriptures and ultimately a lack of the trust in Christ.

But it wasn’t me who said it… it was Christ himself:

Be watchful and strengthen what is left, which is going to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. Remember then how you accepted and heard; keep it, and repent. If you are not watchful, I will come like a thief, and you will never know at what hour I will come upon you. However, you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; they will walk with me dressed in white, because they are worthy.

 

[brkn1]

In today’s reading at mass, Jesus had a message for the Church at Sardis, which made me wonder how ‘saved by faith alone’ people interpret it. Jesus said:

The way I read it, Jesus is saying that some of the people have soiled their garments by their bad works or lack of good works, and that those people won’t be able to walk with Jesus. Doesn’t this show that we will be judged by our works?

Jesus said: “Thou hast a name that thou livest, and are dead.”
Those described as “are dead” must be the church members who never were saved. They were like those who Jesus once described as having shallow, dry, or rocky soil, so that the seed of saving faith could not take and bear fruit (works of God).

I bet those described as dead may have seemed to be quite the “worker” in their own eyes and in the eyes of others like them. They were like the hypocritical Pharisee who prayed unto himself about “What a good boy am I.” There are many carnal churches today that are concerned with the external rituals and works, which they perform to make up for the internal lack that can only be filled by God and not, in any way, of themselves as they mistakenly believe.
They were never truly justified before God, in the manner that the humble publican was described as being justified, since he admitted that he had nothing of himself to merit salvation and he begged for God’s mercy. Those who think that their own works will save them, even if they think it is of God’s grace that helps them to do those works, are no different than the hypocritical Pharisee. It is most unhumble to think that you can do self-works to become “perfect before God”. Salvation is the “work of God”. Good works of God follow, but they are not what can ever save you from being “dead in your sins”.

 

[Ruthie]

Paul said that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. James said that faith without works is dead. You have to do good works to cultivate your faith in Christ. It is the fertilizer to your faith. Without them, the faith goes dead.

Very well put, SIA!

Brkn1, you said,

Those described as “are dead” must be the church members who never were saved.

This belief is a large part of what drove me away from the “non-denominational” church I attended.

It is a judgment of another’s salvation - something we are not to do. Read the parable in Mt 18:23-35. Also read Mt 7:1-5.

It also smacks of the Pharisee’s attitude to the tax collector in Lk 18:9-14. Who is justified, the man who says “I am a sinner,” or the one who does not?

And, did not our Lord say to us, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; ****but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” To declare that someone “was never saved” is to hold their sins against them. It is a dangerous thing to do.

God have mercy on me, a sinner, and bless all of us,

Ruthie

 

[brkn1]

Very well put, SIA!

Are you also in agreement with what SIA said about purgatory?

Brkn1, you said,

This belief is a large part of what drove me away from the “non-denominational” church I attended.

It is a judgment of another’s salvation - something we are not to do. Read the parable in Mt 18:23-35. Also read Mt 7:1-5.

It also smacks of the Pharisee’s attitude to the tax collector in Lk 18:9-14. Who is justified, the man who says “I am a sinner,” or the one who does not?

And, did not our Lord say to us, “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” To declare that someone “was never saved” is to hold their sins against them. It is a dangerous thing to do.

God have mercy on me, a sinner, and bless all of us,

Ruthie

The church that you belong to now is also quite judgemental about other’s salvation. They even carry it as far as proclaiming some as being “saints” or condemned heretics. There is more than a little hypocrisy in that idea as I understand it.

 

[MySavior]

Jesus said: “Thou hast a name that thou livest, and are dead.”
Those described as “are dead” must be the church members who never were saved. They were like those who Jesus once described as having shallow, dry, or rocky soil, so that the seed of saving faith could not take and bear fruit (works of God).

I bet those described as dead may have seemed to be quite the “worker” in their own eyes and in the eyes of others like them. They were like the hypocritical Pharisee who prayed unto himself about “What a good boy am I.” There are many carnal churches today that are concerned with the external rituals and works, which they perform to make up for the internal lack that can only be filled by God and not, in any way, of themselves as they mistakenly believe.
They were never truly justified before God, in the manner that the humble publican was described as being justified, since he admitted that he had nothing of himself to merit salvation and he begged for God’s mercy. Those who think that their own works will save them, even if they think it is of God’s grace that helps them to do those works, are no different than the hypocritical Pharisee. It is most unhumble to think that you can do self-works to become “perfect before God”. Salvation is the “work of God”. Good works of God follow, but they are not what can ever save you from being “dead in your sins”.

Good Post.

If God is the LORD of your life, why wouldn’t you want to do the things that He asks you to do? Eph. 8 “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.” I believe that works DOES follow repentenace and saving faith in Christ. You can add a whole lot of human requirement that has to be accomplished, but how do you decide what is enough work? Who makes the criteria for what is enough work to save you? Only God sees the heart and know those that truly belong to Him. Many of us will be surprised on the day we enter His gates.