How do feminists deal with Scriptures that go against the movement?

[Julianna]

I agree with you, heartily. This wasn’t the type of feminism I had in mind then. But anyway, do you believe in this idea that men and women have different roles to a certain sense? That men and women show virtues in different ways?

My husband cooks…always has. I don’t…I make reservations. When the kids were babies/toddlers…he liked bath time and reading them stories. I cleaned the kitchen. He suggested family outings and vacations. I handle the money. I make sure the cars get their annual check ups. We attended parent/teacher conferences every quarter…even there wasn’t a problem. We raised them in the Catholic Church…but we didn’t beat them over the head with it. I do laundry…he cuts the grass. I pull weeds and mulch the flower beds…he trims the hedges. I clean the bathroom…he mops the floors. He puts up the sheetrock (we have an old house)…I paint the rooms. Since he cooks…he chose the appliances and the decor for the kitchen. He chose the color for the kitchen…I painted it. The living room is my favorite room so I decorated that. He taught both children (son and daughter) how to work with power tools and how to change a tire. I taught them both how to work a washing machine and to paint a room.

Some of things are gender specific…no other way to describe it. But they are not locked and loaded for every family…and shouldn’t be. We all can learn something from the other. I view our marriage as teamwork. Each of us brought the gifts we had into the marriage and worked them accordingly.

 

[Image_of_God]

I think men and women have different tendencies, generally speaking. Yes, you have women who adore electrical engineering… but they’re the minority. Most women would rather talk about education, nursing, history, languages… relational stuff.

Even at the Naval Academy, with some very non-traditional women, hardly any of us chose to go into engineering. The sciences (physics, chemistry, mathematics, etc.) had a slightly larger percentage of women in their majors, but it was still less than the proportion of women at the school. Most women chose the “soft” majors: international relations, english, history. There was a ton of encouragement to pick engineering majors (the department chair begged me to stay in engineering, promised to do whatever it took to make it work if I wanted to come back from history, etc.), but most women had the ability and just weren’t interested. It wasn’t discrimination (there was no, “oh, women can’t do engineering…”); it was just not what most women were interested in for a major.

Kids see the difference; why can’t adults? A little girl I knew used “Mama” to mean “feed me or cuddle me” and “Dada” as a request for some roughhousing, tickling, playtime. It was obvious to her that her parents dealt with her differently.

Some professor got in trouble a while back when he told an anecdote about his kids. He and his wife had decided, he explained, to raise the kids “gender-neutral” so that they could feel free to explore whatever talents they had. So, he gives both kids some toys. The son proceeds to turn the cute doll into a soldier. The daughter names her two new trucks “Daddy truck” and “baby truck” and uses them to play house. It occurred to this guy and his wife that maybe, just maybe, it wasn’t just a societal construct that most girls prefer dolls and most boys prefer trucks and guns. Female professors in the audience were quoted as being, “So horrified, I thought I was going to throw up.”

And, yet again, feminists look totally blinded by their ideology… and some men take this as an excuse to treat women like doormats. There’s a well-balanced middle position that is getting totally ignored.

I remember reading something that said St. Jerome had a lot of belief in the talents of women. It was true because Jerome actually taught women in a world when women weren’t given many scholastic opportunities. How do you feel about this?

 

[athansor]

I think men and women have different tendencies, generally speaking. Yes, you have women who adore electrical engineering… but they’re the minority. Most women would rather talk about education, nursing, history, languages… relational stuff.

I wonder, though, if it isn’t that women can’t do these things, but that we have this mistaken idea that women aren’t “good” in math and engineering, and therefore teachers don’t take the time.
(I’m actually a engineer and mathematician, with a bunch of letters after my name), and have a very tough time overcoming stereotypes.
Is it wrong to use some of the God-given talent I have for these things, and expect to be taken seriously in the workplace? Or, should I just be content to ‘get the boys a cup of coffee’?

 

[Image_of_God]

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Angry depressed women in sensible shoes frequently quote the verses about wives submitting to their husbands, but NOT ONE of them seem to know the next verse.

It says, “Husbands, love your wives…” This might seem self-evident to us today, but in a society where arranged marriages were the norm, this was revolutionary!

Now think–would you rather be merely submitted to? Or loved?

Now tell me who has the better of the bargain.

I’d say the women. More important is love. Submission reveals this love.

 

[Image_of_God]

My husband cooks…always has. I don’t…I make reservations. When the kids were babies/toddlers…he liked bath time and reading them stories. I cleaned the kitchen. He suggested family outings and vacations. I handle the money. I make sure the cars get their annual check ups. We attended parent/teacher conferences every quarter…even there wasn’t a problem. We raised them in the Catholic Church…but we didn’t beat them over the head with it. I do laundry…he cuts the grass. I pull weeds and mulch the flower beds…he trims the hedges. I clean the bathroom…he mops the floors. He puts up the sheetrock (we have an old house)…I paint the rooms. Since he cooks…he chose the appliances and the decor for the kitchen. He chose the color for the kitchen…I painted it. The living room is my favorite room so I decorated that. He taught both children (son and daughter) how to work with power tools and how to change a tire. I taught them both how to work a washing machine and to paint a room.

Some of things are gender specific…no other way to describe it. But they are not locked and loaded for every family…and shouldn’t be. We all can learn something from the other. I view our marriage as teamwork. Each of us brought the gifts we had into the marriage and worked them accordingly.

This is very true. I don’t believe that men should have power over women to the degrees that they had in the past and this is especially agreed with by Pope St. Gregory VII, who spoke of the divorce problem. How do you feel of divorce problems of the past?

 

[Julianna]

This is very true. I don’t believe that men should have power over women to the degrees that they had in the past and this is especially agreed with by Pope St. Gregory VII, who spoke of the divorce problem. How do you feel of divorce problems of the past?

Divorce problems of the past…if I am understanding you correctly…were few and far between. The only “past” divorce problems I could possibly relate to…is that of my grandmother who was a young married woman with children in the early part of the 1900’s. Most women dealt with…because they had no voice. My grandmother was not able to own land…have a bank account or get credit in her own name. She could not vote. If there were circumstances in a marriage where the husband was a drunk, abusive or a womanizer…it was difficult to say, “I’m leaving”…because the wife had no rights or entitlements. It did not matter that she took care of home and hearth. So they put up with it…or died trying.

Divorce is never and easy out no matter how convienent it is to get one nowdays. Everyone involved is scarred from it. IMHO there should be 3 solid reasons for divorce and they are extreme… Abuse, Adultery and Addiction. No one has the right to abuse you physically or mentally. Marriage is a covenant…adultery breaks that convenant. Addiction destroys the mind and affects the body in ways that prevent a husband from full participation in the covenant of marriage.

I am all for alienation of affection laws. If the “honey” or “stud” whatever the case may be has the chance of being sued for dallying around with a married person…they should pay the offended spouse. Abuse is a no brainer…sadly for some women they stay because they blame themselves for the abuse. Addiction could very well lead to the aforementioned…as large doses of chemical toxins release inhibitions and leads to the total financial destruction of the family.

Hard core feminists see the Bible as threat…rather than blessing. The women of the Bible created change within themselves and effected the time they lived. Otherwise there wouldn’t be any reference to the things they did. They were totally opressed…but many of them didn’t buy into the “good ol’ boys” club. They did it without shouting and screaming for their rights…maybe they knew that their “sisters” down the road of time would be able to that. A woman only has to read about the BVM to understand that she had the wisdom, gut determination and sheer emotional strength to go through the life she lived. Why do you think she is called Blessed? If someone was trying to beat my son with a whip and killed him…they would have to pull me off several of the roman soldiers. That is why God chose her and not me. She is my role model…not just as a wife and mother…but as a woman. If the hard core feminists would do a little research into Mary’s life…maybe they would have a change of heart…and see that “men” are not the enemy.

 

[BobP123]

Now that I have an audience, would anyone sign a petition to end women’s suffrage? They do so much good in the world- the don’t deserve so much suffrage. End women’s suffrage!

It would have to be one vote per household/family if it were fair, though.

Either that or let every child of any age be eligible to vote too. That way families with lots of kids would be certain to stop abortions once and for all. Just a thought.

But, the problem is, how do these “evil” feminists who happen to be Christian—who feel that women must preform the same tasks as men to be equal—handle Scripture when it speaks against them?

Is it possible to be quiet in Church and submissive to your husband and perform your feminist thing outside the arena? Why bring your home or religion outside? It’s not the world’s business.

Question: how far back did this feminization start?

Adam and Eve would be my guess.

 

[Hlafdige]

Good questions. Perhaps best answered in the book The Church Impotent, The Feminization of Christianity by Leon J. Podles. It explains why many more men than women don’t go to church for one thing.

I haven‘t read Podles‘ book but his argument (progressive feminization of the Church since the 13th century) doesn‘t appear all that sound. For one thing, the accusation that Christianity is a religion for women and slaves goes back to Tacitus, at least. Also, one could scarcely lay the blame at the door of the High Middle Ages without implicating the rise of Marian piety in the fault. Thirdly, is it a fault? Today‘s Gospel reading was about the cost of discipleship. Men who turn their backs on the Church because they see society‘s less respected demographic segments strongly represented there, wouldn‘t have had much manliness to contribute anyway.

 

[Tim_Kirchoff]

End women’s suffrage! OK, that’s old now.

There are people who go around in amusement parks and such, and people actually say yes because they don’t know what suffrage means

 

[BobP123]

I haven‘t read Podles‘ book but his argument (progressive feminization of the Church since the 13th century) doesn‘t appear all that sound. For one thing, the accusation that Christianity is a religion for women and slaves goes back to Tacitus, at least. Also, one could scarcely lay the blame at the door of the High Middle Ages without implicating the rise of Marian piety in the fault. Thirdly, is it a fault? Today‘s Gospel reading was about the cost of discipleship. Men who turn their backs on the Church because they see society‘s less respected demographic segments strongly represented there, wouldn‘t have had much manliness to contribute anyway.

I don’t agree with everything Podles claims either and I don’t know exactly what kind of men you prefer but I know it turns me off when I see women trying to run things in the Church. Maybe that’s one of the reasons I attend the Extraordinary Form where men still seem to have control of things. I’m not saying women will not have ultimate control of the EF as well but I do like to see some adherence to St. Paul. Our gospel reading, by the way, was Jesus’ power over death (Luke 7:11-16). They need to synchronize the liturgies somehow.

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

I wonder, though, if it isn’t that women can’t do these things, but that we have this mistaken idea that women aren’t “good” in math and engineering, and therefore teachers don’t take the time.
(I’m actually a engineer and mathematician, with a bunch of letters after my name), and have a very tough time overcoming stereotypes.
Is it wrong to use some of the God-given talent I have for these things, and expect to be taken seriously in the workplace? Or, should I just be content to ‘get the boys a cup of coffee’?

I apologize if I came across as discouraging women in sciences; I’m certainly not! There needs to be a better recognition that women can do just as well as men in these fields, but I don’t think that fight is helped by establishing quotas for women. I’m saying that most women don’t seem to be interested enough in them to major in them; I don’t think you’ll ever see a 50/50 split of men and women in the engineering majors, and probably not likely in the hard sciences, either.

It sometimes sounds like people assume if there aren’t a “proportional” number of women in any given field that there must be discrimination, and that has to be fixed somehow.

As a professional engineer, how many women do you usually see in your field? Are there more women in the recent college graduates? At some point, do you think the percentage of women in your field will reach a natural level, where there is consistently 10%, 30%, 70%, whatever % women?

It’s certainly possible that some of this is from upbringing, but I think that is changing. There is a lot of push now to keep girls interested in math and the like. My AP Calculus class in high school was almost evenly split, with a few more guys than girls. My AP Computer Science class was five guys and me (the teacher was a woman). French 4 senior year was mostly girls. Nobody said “girls aren’t allowed in the computer classes” or “only girls can take the advanced language classes.” If you were good at the subject, the teachers encouraged you to continue. The guys in the computer classes never bugged me (unless they wanted help), because they knew I was doing as well or better than they were.

My problem is with the intense push and incentives to get women into these classes and other non-traditional jobs or majors. To the guys, it looks like discrimination. Some women who are less qualified are accepted into these programs and they make everyone else look bad. I’m thinking here of a number of women at the Academy or in other officer programs who were completely inept… frankly, they didn’t even WANT to lead, so why were they there? The only answer seemed to be that someone had a quota for women officers, and they needed someone to fill that number. This makes all the women officers look bad; the assumption becomes, “Well, they probably gave her special treatment,” even though most of us were at least as qualified as our male classmates, and some of us more so. (This then led to men who saw it as their job to remove as many women as possible from “their” Navy, regardless of the woman’s competence as an officer.)

The quotas (like the separate Women’s History Month, IMO) give the impression that women have to have the bar lowered for them: they aren’t smart enough to compete with guys.

During the application process for the Academy, I had a staffer at the Senator’s office snidely comment, “You know you’re only still in the running for the Academy nomination because you’re a girl.” No, I replied, I’m here because I have great test scores and GPA and I’m in leadership positions in five different extracurriculars. “Yeah, whatever.” He knew there was a quota for women, so he assumed that the women were all sub-standard candidates.

Years later, pulling into Norfolk, the harbor pilot made some kind of quiet joke to the captain, then laughed. The captain, who was normally very calm and soft-spoken, replied loudly (and obviously ticked off), “Well, you can see I trust them because one has the deck and the other has the wheel!” As the most qualified officer of the deck, I had charge of the bridge for pulling in. Turning around, I realized that the helmsman and I were the only women who happened to be on watch on the bridge that day. This thirty-something “professional” had made some kind of joke about women drivers! Now I wasn’t too surprised when something like this happened with one of the canal pilots in the Suez Canal in Egypt, but in the U.S. and from someone that young?

I don’t think we do a very good job of judging people by their abilities. Remember the discussion about the Supreme Court? “Well, a woman is leaving, so she has to be replaced by a woman.” Huh? I thought we were supposed to pick the best qualified judge. If that means we get nine men of Asian descent, who cares? The question should be their ability, not their demographic.

Where we are is an improvement on the “women don’t do math/science/military/police/etc.”, but it isn’t the best solution, either, because it assumes that men and women are essentially identical, and that just isn’t true. It is just going to take time.

(sorry for being so verbose, yet again! )

 

[catechumen08]

Personally, I see this as a question of free will. I believe men and women are equals. Women, just like men, are afforded the free will to live the lives they choose. As long as it’s not something criminal, as in the notable case of abortion, I don’t see why we should pass judgment on how women choose to live their lives. No one’s perfect, and I for one, will not cast the first stone.

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

Hmmm. Nobody replied to the last post for 24 hours, thus exemplifying why nobody talks about this…

As soon as you say, “I don’t think modern feminism, as warped by NOW, is doing good things,” people misinterpret the comment to mean, “Women should just shut up and serve the coffee or stay home.”

So, someone angrily accuses people of being judgmental for criticizing radical feminists (as much as they deserve it and deserve to be fought, because they are doing real damage to our society, and that damage makes it everyone’s business), and the thread ends because nobody wants to be seen as misogynist or judgmental or anti-women’s suffrage (for those of you who know what the word means and laughed at the joke earlier in the thread ) or argue with the people accusing them of it.

sigh And this is why we make no progress; we cede the argument to the accusers (wait, what was the word for “accuse” in Hebrew?)…

 

[athansor]

Actually, Mondays are just a busy day at work for me, and I also don’t want to spend time online while my little one is awake.

However, issues like equal pay in the workplace, sexism, accomodations for mothering and family needs, dual-career issues, and fighting the attitude that women are lest adept than men in math and science are all very important to me. I hope I didn’t sound too snarky, but if I had a nickel for every time someone walked into my office and thought I was the administrative assistant instead of a member of the engineering faculy…well, I’d probably put it towards sponsoring Girls in Engineering day activities.

Does that make me a radical feminist? I’ve worked for many issues that relate to women (especially mothers) in the workplace. While I don’t know of any place in academics that has a quota for women students or faculty, I actively support policies to encourage girls to go into the “STEM” disciplines (science, technology, engineering and math), and work to dispel stereotypes that women either aren’t interested or can’t succeed in them. I don’t believe that there are any gender specific differences that relate to either abilities or interests in these areas, and the reason the numbers are so low are because family, friends, counselors,media (remember the talking Barbie who said something like “I can’t do math”!?) and teachers do not encourage (and may in fact discourage) girls from pursuing these interests. Industries who disproportionally lay off women in times of downturns and differences in pay and advancement opportunities also help to keep the proportion of women in these fields too low. I hope that someday the percentage of women in STEM disciplines will reflect the percentage of women in the community.

So, other than issues relating to abortion and contraception, where the feminist movement and the Catholic church disagree, what are the other major problems with the feminist movement? What is “radical” feminism? What damages are you referring to? Does it damage society if women and men recieve equal pay for equal work? Can women who work be loving mothers? Can children raised in families where the mom works grow up to be happy, well-adjusted adults?

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

… like equal pay…, sexism, accomodations for mothering and family needs, dual-career issues…

These things are all important to me, too. You’re proving my point: you are assuming that I think women should be treated badly in the workplace because I don’t like feminists like NOW.

…if I had a nickel for every time someone walked into my office and thought I was the administrative assistant… well, I’d probably put it towards sponsoring Girls in Engineering day activities.

Yeah, like I said in one of my previous posts, I had a number of stupid comments myself. And we need more engineers, period; why encourage just girls?

I’ve worked for many issues that relate to women (especially mothers) in the workplace. … I actively support policies to encourage girls to go into the “STEM” disciplines (science, technology, engineering and math), and work to dispel stereotypes that women either aren’t interested or can’t succeed in them. I don’t believe that there are any gender specific differences…

When I was in college, I was given the distinct impression that the fact that two of the three women in Sys Eng (and we had the most women of any of the engineering majors) had left was going to look very bad with the accreditation board. There was some sort of “acceptable” percentage of women.

You believe there aren’t any differences in interest. I believe there are. I gave examples from my experience to back it up. Do you have a statistic or example of a school that has reached the 50/50 split in the STEM disciplines? Otherwise, we can argue about opinion all day.

… teachers do not encourage (and may in fact discourage) girls from pursuing these interests.

I’ve never had a teacher discourage me in math or science. I had a lot of them tell me, “You’re a girl, you’ve got talent in these areas, who cares if you enjoy the work, you’ve got to do it!” And I wound up in a major I hated.

Industries who disproportionally lay off women… and differences in pay and advancement opportunities also help to keep the proportion of women in these fields too low.

Those statistics always depend on who’s writing them. If my husband does ten years at his job, works overtime, travels frequently, etc., is he on par with a woman at the same job who did ten years, but decided to take a year of maternity time, has to split “sick kid days” with her working husband, and won’t travel or do overtime much because of her kids? Statistically, it would be easy to argue that they should both be at about the same paygrade because they do identical jobs and started at the same time, but it isn’t true.

Are women disproportionally laid off because they’re the more junior ones? Is that “disproportionate” among everyone in their company or everyone at their seniority level?

I hope that someday the percentage of women in STEM disciplines will reflect the percentage of women in the community.

I hope that someday we will come to appreciate everyone as-is, not as a gender war victory or loss, not as a statistic.

So, other than issues relating to abortion and contraception…

The problem is, abortion and contraception aren’t just some of the issues; NOW has made abortion THE issue. The Equal Rights Amendment looked like it would squeak by. Then, abortion got tacked on as a “right”, and the ERA died. Of those states that passed it, several have rescinded their approval because NOW and others have used the ERA to force states to fund abortions.

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

What is “radical” feminism? What damages are you referring to? Does it damage society if women and men recieve equal pay for equal work? Can women who work be loving mothers? Can children raised in families where the mom works grow up to be happy, well-adjusted adults?

And here we are again: you are assuming that anyone who doesn’t like feminists thinks women should be actively discriminated against in the workplace. Equal pay for equal work is a great concept… if you can quantify “equal work.” I’d rather have a fair opportunity to prove myself.

Yes, working moms can be loving mothers. Yes, children of working moms CAN grow up to be happy adults… but the odds are probably a lot lower than for non-working moms. Some single moms raise great kids; in general, however, lack of a father at home is the number one predictor for crime in a neighborhood.

My mom loved me. She also went back to work as soon as my brother entered kindergarten. She has hated her job for 20 years, but dad made it clear that he expected her to “pull her weight” by earning money. I got out of school three hours before my parents got home. That’s a lot of time to get into all kinds of trouble. After they got home, there was all of the usual chores still to do. Our family gradually ceased to exist as a coherent entity when my mom went back to work; there was just too much to cram into the week.

The “radical” feminists are the ones who insist that abortion is a right (and hide the problems), there is no such thing as gender differences (and men are irrelevant anyways), and earning power is THE measure of a person’s worth (so, to quote that stupid book, “Shut up and get back to work.”). They say that they’re concerned about equal pay, working moms, gender bias, etc… but all of their lobbying effort goes towards abortion.

**What damage have the radical feminists done? **

45 million babies dead (and who knows how many mothers) from abortion in the U.S. alone.

90% of women in the U.S. on artificial contraceptives at some point in their lives (have you heard about the synthetic estrogen getting into our drinking water? Is this why infertility rates are rising?).

Contraceptives facilitate increased promiscuity, which leads to increased incidences of STD’s, and STD’s are definitely increasing the infertility rates, leading to hundreds of thousands of frozen “extra” babies in fertility clinics.

Millions of women working outside the home, but most wish they could be home for their kids, especially the young kids.

No-fault divorce and easily obtained divorces… and single moms with kids as the majority of households living in poverty. Millions of children with a poisoned view of relationships and trust.

Promotion of promiscuity as “sexually liberated” because all of those old values of waiting were just “patriarchal,” and, therefore, stupid.

The denegration of men in general and fathers in particular. If he has no say on the abortion, really, why should he pay child support if you decide not to abort?

Increase in violence against pregnant women because of the widespread availability of abortion and the feminist insistence that “it’s no big deal.”

Millions of kids at home alone every afternoon because both parents work, leading to more kids doing drugs, having sex, finding pornography online, etc.

The denigration of housewives and stay-at-home moms because, really, they should be earning money. As G.K. Chesterton said, “Why is it considered a large career to teach other people’s children about the Rule of Three and a small career to teach your own children about the universe?”

Increased obesity because of less leisure time (got chores to do in the evenings, so there goes the family walk) and more eating out (remember the commercial touting, “I give my family real home cooking from Hardee’s”? And about 500x the daily fat allowance).

Increased disintegration of families because everyone has their own lives; home is just where we all sleep at night, nothing more. “Mom as anchor of stability” is gone, so more kids turn to gangs, chat rooms, etc. for community.

Pending demographic obliteration of Europe due to extremely low birth rates. “Educated women don’t have kids,” so, almost nobody has more than two, preferrably only one. Besides, day care is expensive, so, after two, you’re smarter to stay home, and “smart women don’t do that.”

The early feminists won the vote for women, got abortion outlawed, forced colleges to accept qualified women as students, changed ownership and inheritance laws, improved divorce laws to allow abused women a way out, promoted the acceptance of women in the professions, etc.

What have the modern radical feminists done, besides tear the family and society apart with no idea of how it should be reordered?

 

[athansor]

I can’t reply to all of that tonight…but I think that there are assumptions going both ways. For one, there is an assumption that all women who work don’t spend time with families, don’t cook meals, and in general seem to care less about their kids. I absolutely hate the “mommy wars”, where stay at home moms disparage working moms as not caring about their kids “why did you even have kids if other people are going to raise them” and working moms look down at stay at home moms and figure that either they don’t have skills to use in the workplace, or they have them and are wasting them. I think both stay at home and working moms can be great mothers (and I know working moms and stay at home moms who are sadly unattached and disconnected from thier kids as well).

I think that blaming obesity on feminism is kind of reaching. (but I get into too much trouble when I start talking about food issues…because I end up getting into vegan diets )

Personally, I don’t consider myself a radical feminist, so I don’t really know why I’m even writing this. I happen to be married, and a mom, and agree that it is good for my little guy to have a mom and dad at home. I work outside the home, and when my little one was young, he came to work with me. I don’t feel unhappy or forced to work. It sounds to me like we have just had really different experiences and might be generalizing from them…although I do research in women and minorities in science and engineering, it’s kind of a side angle from my regular research and teaching…so I do have some access to data that not everyone does.

We probably agree on a number of things…for instance, I don’t like the pop stars and media that portray girls in a sexual way at a young age. I think that this notion that young girls should be concerned about nothing more than looking pretty is in part responsible for a difference in interests in stem disciplines as much as anything else. The media doesn’t present too many positive role models of girls as loving science and math.

Just as a side note, I am concerned about the increasing (is it increasing or is it just reported more widely?) trend of violence toward pregnant women. I don’t know how you can say that is caused by abortion. My guess is that in most cases violence toward pregnant women comes from either a father who doesn’t want to support/raise a child or a women who want to have the baby. At least most widely reported cases, including one in my hometown 20 years ago, seem to fall into these two categories. I’m not sure how outlawing abortion would be a factor in preventing either of these types of violence.

I do think, though that when women have better opportunities in the workforce, workplaces value female employees as much as men, and make accomodations to allow women to be productive and be good parents, a side effect is that there will be fewer abortions.

Not a significant sample, and of course, not abortion related, but when my son was little, he went to work with me for the first 15 months. Now, not all jobs would work like mine did, but I was able to work with him in a sling and be actually more productive than I was before he was born. I think it is due to the fact that I felt so happy to be able to do that, I no longer wasted any time at work staring off into space, playing on the computer, etc. When he was napping, nursing or playing, I was working with a focus I had never had before.

Anyway, a long and rambling post, that probably didn’t hit all the points (and really, we’re not that far apart). I just feel that sometimes when people start getting “anti-feminist”, things often move to a place where people are saying “women don’t deserve equal pay because they might be distracted by family”, or “don’t hire a woman because they might get pregnant, and then thel will quit”, or “the duty of a young girl is to grow up and be a wife and mother, so it doesn’t matter if you get math, as long as you can cook and sew” , or “boys don’t want to date women who are smarter than they are”. I just want to say that it’s possible to be good at math, science, cooking and sewing, to be a good mom and wife while working, and genetically, women have as much ability as men in these areas.

The things you attribue to the early feminists…while you are battling modern feminists, I would hope that you would keep those things intact…but I’m not sure that everyone who is “anti-feminist” would want to.

Ok…I promised myself I’d just write a short note…I think I should probably stay away from these forum…they keep me up too late at night!

 

[Gardening_Mommy]

For one, there is an assumption that all women who work don’t spend time with families, don’t cook meals, and in general seem to care less …

It isn’t everyone, but the trends are there. There’s only so much you can cram into a day; something has to give.

On food: think about the drastic rise in eating out and super-processed foods. Something’s happening here. (actually, Just a Housewife examined that whole trend of the dumbing down and commercialization of housework pretty well (except for the chapter about Freidan)).

I absolutely hate the “mommy wars”…

Yeah, we’re all pretty invested in our choices, so it’s hard to talk reasonably about them.

I think that blaming obesity on feminism is kind of reaching.

Ok, that WAS a bit of a stretch… but I think feminism has had a negative impact on a lot of family/domestic related areas when it could’ve had a restraining effect.

I don’t feel unhappy or forced to work. It sounds to me like we have just had really different experiences and might be generalizing from them…although I do research in women and minorities in science and engineering

Everyone has opinions about this stuff, but few people seem to have any real facts. Plus, how do you quantify a career or a happy life? Heck, in high school, I wasn’t planning on marriage or kids and I wanted to be an admiral. Didn’t exactly work out that way, but, then, my definition of “success” changed.

Do you have any articles online? I’d love to see them.

Just as a side note, I am concerned about the increasing (is it increasing or is it just reported more widely?) trend of violence toward pregnant women. I don’t know how you can say that is caused by abortion.

Like you said, she wants to keep the baby and he doesn’t want to keep the baby or pay child support. Legally, he has no recourse(ok, one guy is suing, saying if she has a right to an abortion, then he has a right to disown). The father is basically just a source of money; he can’t say whether the baby should live or die, because, legally, it’s all the mom’s decision.

The recent cases seem to be a real trend, and each one was explained by her friends or family as, “Well, he wanted an abortion, she said no, and he got really angry, and three days later he killed her.” Maybe if guys understood what a trauma abortion is for a woman, they’d think twice, but the media usually shows abortion as a no-big-deal, happy ending for everyone.

…he went to work with me for the first 15 months. Now, not all jobs would work like mine did… actually more productive than I was before he was born. I think it is due to the fact that I felt so happy to be able to do that…

Satisfaction is great for productivity, but it’s hard to put on a spreadsheet! As you said, that had a lot to do with your type of job. I think Priests for Life pointed it out, and I know I read it in G.K. Chesterton somewhere, but a lot of the social experiments end up hurting the poor more than anyone else. Most lower-end jobs involve a lot of physical work and are unlikely to have allowed a baby in a sling. Plus, these people have less ability to walk away from a job that wouldn’t accomodate their parenting needs.

Anyway, a long and rambling post, that probably didn’t hit all the points (and really, we’re not that far apart).

I agree; we’re not that far apart. And my posts were much longer and more rambling! (had to edit down to 5000 again)

Yes, some guys are scared away by smart, confident women, and that’s sad. I knew someone at the Naval Academy who was having a great conversation with a guy in a bar, until he asked, “So, where do you go to school?” “The Naval Academy.” “Bye.”

And then there was the non-denominational fellowship group where I met my husband that always brought in single elementary school teachers who were properly shy and demure.

On the other hand, in all of the Academy-married-Academy couples I know, the wife ranked higher than the husband at school, usually significantly so.

The things you attribue to the early feminists…while you are battling modern feminists, I would hope that you would keep those things intact…but I’m not sure that everyone who is “anti-feminist” would want to.

Sadly, I think there is a backlash of sentiment over the issue because modern feminists have become so pro-abortion and man-hating. I really hope Feminsts for Life continues to get in the news; they’re a breath of fresh air!

…I think I should probably stay away from these forum…they keep me up too late at night!

Yeah, I think I’m going to have to start keeping a timer next to the computer!

 

[edwest2]

The “radical” feminists are the ones who insist that abortion is a right (and hide the problems), there is no such thing as gender differences (and men are irrelevant anyways), and earning power is THE measure of a person’s worth (so, to quote that stupid book, “Shut up and get back to work.”). They say that they’re concerned about equal pay, working moms, gender bias, etc… but all of their lobbying effort goes towards abortion.

**What damage have the radical feminists done? **

45 million babies dead (and who knows how many mothers) from abortion in the U.S. alone.

90% of women in the U.S. on artificial contraceptives at some point in their lives (have you heard about the synthetic estrogen getting into our drinking water? Is this why infertility rates are rising?).

Contraceptives facilitate increased promiscuity, which leads to increased incidences of STD’s, and STD’s are definitely increasing the infertility rates, leading to hundreds of thousands of frozen “extra” babies in fertility clinics.

No-fault divorce and easily obtained divorces… and single moms with kids as the majority of households living in poverty. Millions of children with a poisoned view of relationships and trust.

Promotion of promiscuity as “sexually liberated” because all of those old values of waiting were just “patriarchal,” and, therefore, stupid.

The denegration of men in general and fathers in particular. If he has no say on the abortion, really, why should he pay child support if you decide not to abort?

Increase in violence against pregnant women because of the widespread availability of abortion and the feminist insistence that “it’s no big deal.”

Millions of kids at home alone every afternoon because both parents work, leading to more kids doing drugs, having sex, finding pornography online, etc.

The denigration of housewives and stay-at-home moms because, really, they should be earning money. As G.K. Chesterton said, “Why is it considered a large career to teach other people’s children about the Rule of Three and a small career to teach your own children about the universe?”

Increased disintegration of families because everyone has their own lives; home is just where we all sleep at night, nothing more. “Mom as anchor of stability” is gone, so more kids turn to gangs, chat rooms, etc. for community.

What have the modern radical feminists done, besides tear the family and society apart with no idea of how it should be reordered?

---

This is correct. The radical feminists did not try to solve problems between men and women, they helped create them. In 1978, as Gloria Steinmen was yelling to her sisters “to throw off the chains of their oppression,” NOW was making women feel like victims. Men became the enemy.

The mindset of non-Radicals during this time period was a respect for authority. I was there and considered some of what NOW had to say was legitimate, but as time passed, trust in all levels of society eroded. Along with NOW came a proliferation of Adult Bookstores that sold images of prostitutes. Porn came to cable in the 1980s, along with No-Fault Divorce. Thanks to Now, The Porn Industry, and the Movie and TV Industry, the message was changed from men and women respecting each other to women becoming objects. Porn was trying to become “respectable.”

This has permeated all levels of society. Kids can see Partial Nudity magazines in the Supermarket. They act like miniature adults, cussing, swearing and being generally disrespectful. The family as a fully functional unit has been replaced by the dysfunctional model, in real life and on TV.

It is time Christians of all denominations realize that we have been and still are being exploited ny individuals who want toleranve and acceptance but do not appear to want to give it in return. Our compassion for young women helped legalize abortion, but instead of being the rare last resort it was meant to be it has become abortion on demand. Women are killing their own babies. And what about the fathers of these babies? Who is defending their rights? Or talking about their responsibility?

We all need to return to Church teaching, and ignore the world. In the last 40 years, we have had a Sexual Revolution, a Feminist Movement, attempts by teenagers to emancipate themselves from parents and a general breakdown in the family.

Pick up a Catholic newspaper or magazine. View the world through the eyes of other Catholics. The world wants anarchy, not peace, it wants conflicts but not resolutions.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Delphinus85]

Like the one that says that women should not speak in the Church and the one that says that wives should be submissive to their husbands.

It seems to me that at that time it was a mass that was celebrated. Women can’t be priests, and I would think this verse supports that. The women in the church at that time were probably disrupting services to ask their husbands questions, or to gossip amoungst themselves. shrugs and the whole submission thing is…well both are called to submot. The woman submits to the man who serves her so completely he’d die for her.