How Do I Answer This Claim

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jtphenom

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I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this…

People like to assert that the Church contradicted Herself when she said that those who do not submit to the Pope may be saved. They site a dogmatic declaration that nobody, even if they pour their blood out for the name of Christ, may be saved if they do not submit to the Pope. What are they talking about? And how do I respond to this?
 
jtphenom said:
I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this…
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no apology necessary - you got it right
jtphenom said:
People like to assert that the Church contradicted Herself when she said that those who do not submit to the Pope may be saved.
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This is called “invincible ignorance.”
jtphenom said:
They site a dogmatic declaration that nobody, even if they pour their blood out for the name of Christ, may be saved if they do not submit to the Pope. What are they talking about?
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They probably refer to the Papal Bull by Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, which contains this:
Moreover, that every human creature is to be subject to the Roman pontiff, we declare, we state, we define, and we pronounce to be entirely from the necessity of salvation.
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There is no contradiction if a person properly understands what the Church means by “being subject” to the Pope (it’s our term, so we get to define what it means).

This question has been discussed here at great length - for example, here, or search the forum for “Unam Sanctum” for about a hundred more.
 
There is no teaching that to be saved one must submit to the pope. There is a teaching that one must be subject to the pope. Those are not the same things.
 
Thanks, people. I figured it had been discussed here. I guess I just didn’t know what exactly to search for. You folks ROCK ( pun intended 😃 ) !
 
jtphenom said:
I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this…

People like to assert that the Church contradicted Herself when she said that those who do not submit to the Pope may be saved. They site a dogmatic declaration that nobody, even if they pour their blood out for the name of Christ, may be saved if they do not submit to the Pope. What are they talking about? And how do I respond to this?
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See the Catechism para 846-848
 
Yeah I know those paragraphs well. I was mainly wondering what the person was referring to and how to answer the charge of contradiction, though, which those paragraphs don’t really answer. In fact, those paragraphs are part of the drive behind the challenger’s challenge. 🙂
 
jtphenom said:
Yeah I know those paragraphs well. I was mainly wondering what the person was referring to and how to answer the charge of contradiction, though, which those paragraphs don’t really answer. In fact, those paragraphs are part of the drive behind the challenger’s challenge. 🙂
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Sorry if those para didn’t help. Can you rephrase your question/concern? Thanks.
 
jtphenom said:
I apologize if this is the wrong forum for this…

People like to assert that the Church contradicted Herself when she said that those who do not submit to the Pope may be saved. They site a dogmatic declaration that nobody, even if they pour their blood out for the name of Christ, may be saved if they do not submit to the Pope. What are they talking about? And how do I respond to this?
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Just think about what the three requirements for mortal sin are, and then you see it laid out rather plainly without having to review a huge papal document that boils down to the same thing really.
 
jtphenom said:
They site a dogmatic declaration that nobody, even if they pour their blood out for the name of Christ, may be saved if they do not submit to the Pope.
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I am unaware of any such Dogma. Can you ask them to please give a specific citation from a document that they believe states this?

We can guess where their error is all day long, but they really need to provide their source if we are to discuss this intelligently.
 
Just would like to humbly point out that many a Protestant would fall out of the invincible ignorance realm. As would our good Agnostic friend here Strawberry Jam, perfect example. She seems to know a bit about the Church,her missions, teachings and tenets, this kills immediately the invincible ignorance. As would being a member of this forum actually and having access to all this information. Accept the Church, especially after hearing the truth, if not, well, may God have mercy.
 
VerumAdInfernos said:
Just would like to humbly point out that many a Protestant would fall out of the invincible ignorance realm. As would our good Agnostic friend here Strawberry Jam, perfect example. She seems to know a bit about the Church,her missions, teachings and tenets, this kills immediately the invincible ignorance. As would being a member of this forum actually and having access to all this information. Accept the Church, especially after hearing the truth, if not, well, may God have mercy.
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Aww. And I am still waiting for you to reply to your post in sacred scripture you never did reply to. What a shame. Considering I have been given so much truthiness here.🤷
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerumAdInfernos forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Just would like to humbly point out that many a Protestant would fall out of the invincible ignorance realm. As would our good Agnostic friend here Strawberry Jam, perfect example. She seems to know a bit about the Church,her missions, teachings and tenets, this kills immediately the invincible ignorance. As would being a member of this forum actually and having access to all this information. Accept the Church, especially after hearing the truth, if not, well, may God have mercy.
StrawberryJam said:
Aww. And I am still waiting for you to reply to your post in sacred scripture you never did reply to. What a shame. Considering I have been given so much truthiness here.🤷
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now now children…tsk tsk tsk…bahave…

you’re supposed to respond with “I’m being have”…😉

It sounds like invincible ignorance could easily be met especially on this forum because of all the mixed up people that supposedly know Catholic teaching…and scripture.
 
eucharisteo said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by VerumAdInfernos forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
Just would like to humbly point out that many a Protestant would fall out of the invincible ignorance realm. As would our good Agnostic friend here Strawberry Jam, perfect example. She seems to know a bit about the Church,her missions, teachings and tenets, this kills immediately the invincible ignorance. As would being a member of this forum actually and having access to all this information. Accept the Church, especially after hearing the truth, if not, well, may God have mercy.

now now children…tsk tsk tsk…bahave…

you’re supposed to respond with “I’m being have”…😉

It sounds like invincible ignorance could easily be met especially on this forum because of all the mixed up people that supposedly know Catholic teaching…and scripture.
Click to expand...
Pointing ----------->They did it…honest
 
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