How do I answer this one?

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jerico777

Our Lord did not give us a book or collection of writings about His teaching, but chose apostles with a leader (St Peter) to whom alone was given the Keys of the Kingdom separately, the charge of binding and loosing, and of confirming his brethren – on whom He built His Church. These apostles taught and then gave us SOME of this teaching in writing, inspired by the Holy Spirit. A successor of Our Lord’s chosen St Peter declared which writings make up the Word of God; so without the authority of His Church we would not even know the teaching of Jesus.

Since you would not even know some of what Christ taught without the Catholic Church and Her Scriptures, now that you know better, you have the opportunity to start to think with the mind of Christ and His Church. Jesus of Nazareth redeemed us. We are saved through co-operation with Him through His Church as St Paul teaches: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience.

We see here that Christ’s Catholic Church (the Bride of Christ) is His Mystical Body through whom all salvation comes. Understanding the meaning of salvation for those nominally outside of Christ’s Church is not the only vitally important fact – private interpretation of the Scriptures cannot always guide us on contraception, on remarriage, on capital punishment, IVF, cloning, marriage only between the opposite sex, and many other modern problems - this fact results in uncertainty, confusion and lack of unified Christian action at times.

Christ did not go to the extent of building His Church on St Peter with all of the means for salvation – in teaching, ruling and sanctifying, for anyone to pay fast and loose with His Body.

She is the only means of salvation provided by Christ and those who come to see this will ensure their assent to Her teaching and join in Her sacrificial worship and Her sacraments for their salvation. Those who don’t yet see this may be saved by following their conscience in endeavouring to know and follow the will of God; some will come home, or return, to Christ’s Church.
Greetings Abu
I think where we disagree is the defination of terms and what they mean to each of us. Let me give a few examples.
Peter pope/apostle only
Salvation Church/Jesus only
Final authority Pope/Bible

I think this forum is a good place to hash out our differences. Hoprfully in love.
 
From many years experience of my wife and I, home study groups are of real value only when carefully attentive to the teaching of Christ’s Church – dissenters abound, and they write books and courses that lead many astray.
 
During most of Christian history, including in early Christianity, most people didn’t have their own copies of the Bible; but they were expected to know the Scriptures from hearing them read in church and remembering them. (Just as most Jews learned the Scriptures from hearing them read and remembering them.)

For example, St. Monica (St. Augustine’s mother) was extremely familiar with the Scriptures, because she attended Mass often. St. Augustine remembered in his autobiography (The Confessions) that his mother would even go to funeral Masses of people she didn’t know, in order to hear the readings. Since people back then had better trained memories than we have, this was more than sufficient for non-scholars.

As time went on and languages changed, it became the custom to keep the main Bible translation the same (in Greek, Latin, Old Church Slavonic, etc.) in the readings, but to have the priest or deacon translate the readings as part of his homily. (Most Bibles in churches had glosses running along the lines explaining words, and translating them into the language of the place, as an aid to memory. Some of these glosses were actually translations of the entire Bible, but they aren’t usually counted as such by Internet lists.) This is why, when you see a sermon printed, you will see the passage printed out in front of it. Again, if you attended church, you got to hear the whole Bible.

If you did have the money or the time to copy books, there were usually translations around, outside of the churches. But most people only wanted one or two books of the Bible, not the whole thing. The most popular Bible books to own were either one or all of the Gospels (although you probably knew those stories by heart already), or the Psalms and the Song of Solomon. So when people sat down to translate part of the Bible, it was usually one of those parts. People also liked to turn the Bible into poetry, for their own amusement and devotion.

If you owned a breviary or Book of Hours, it would usually include all the Psalms, as well as a lot of other prayers and important Bible passages.

But of course if you were a serious student of the Bible, you’d want to use the Latin, Greek, Old Church Slavonic, etc., that all the rest of the scholars around you were using. And you’d probably have joined a religious order or become a cleric. That would make copies of the Bible a lot easier to get.

Here’s a list of Old English Bible translations:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_Bible_translations

The Anglo-Saxon Bible page is very good stuff:
wordhord.org/nasb/

I do think it’s a bit historically silly to call Judith “Apocrypha” on an Anglo-Saxon Bible page. If you asked a man of England if Judith was a book of the Bible, he’d say that of course it was a book of the Old Testament. Judith was a pretty popular name in England, until the Reformation.

And Middle English Bible translations, because it’s not all Wyclif:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English_Bible_translations

It’s very likely that there was more stuff than this in existence at one time, but all the wars and alarums in English lands, and Henry VIII, and Elizabeth, and the Roundheads, took their toll.

Orm of Lincolnshire’s name, btw, means “Dragon”; so his translation the “Ormulum” means something like is A Mirror for Dragon. 🙂

Maureen
 
A few years ago I returned to the Catholic Church after more than 50 years of being a Protestant. The answer to your question is to stop listening to reasons for not being a Catholic and to focus on reasons for being a Catholic. Read the letters St Ignatius wrote to the various Churches as he was being led to Rome to be fed to the lions. These letters were written around 100 AD and they clearly demonstrate that the very early Church was not Protestant. If you can listen to the Coming Home Program monday evenings on EWTN you will be able to listen to the reasons many Protestants (especially ministers) come to the Catholic Church.
 
Greetings Jericho777
Why would you want to deny Jesus of Nazareth, Son of God over giving His authority and Primacy to Peter as His Vicar?

It was Jesus who said to His apostles “he that hears you hears Me” (Lk 10:16)

All four promises to Peter alone:

“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)

“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)

“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Would you deny St John and St Paul Too?
The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! We are redeemed by Christ’s Passion and Death (heaven was opened); we are not saved until we co-operate with Him.

Or do you doubt St Paul again? “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. We see here that Christ’s Catholic Church (the Bride of Christ) is His Mystical Body through whom all salvation comes.

The foundation of the Catholic Church by Jesus was His complete Way of enabling you and I to attain salvation after His redemption of mankind – through participating in His sacrifice on the Cross and receiving His Body and Blood in Holy Communion, through His sacraments of Confession and the other six according to our state – through Her teaching enabling us to live holy lives and repent of transgressions.
 
Greetings Jericho777
Why would you want to deny Jesus of Nazareth, Son of God over giving His authority and Primacy to Peter as His Vicar?

It was Jesus who said to His apostles “he that hears you hears Me” (Lk 10:16)

All four promises to Peter alone:

“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)

“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)

“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Would you deny St John and St Paul Too?
The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels! This is with the authority of Christ! We are redeemed by Christ’s Passion and Death (heaven was opened); we are not saved until we co-operate with Him.

Or do you doubt St Paul again? “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience. We see here that Christ’s Catholic Church (the Bride of Christ) is His Mystical Body through whom all salvation comes.

The foundation of the Catholic Church by Jesus was His complete Way of enabling you and I to attain salvation after His redemption of mankind – through participating in His sacrifice on the Cross and receiving His Body and Blood in Holy Communion, through His sacraments of Confession and the other six according to our state – through Her teaching enabling us to live holy lives and repent of transgressions.
Hello Abu I don’t deny Jesus at all He alone is my only hope.
Our differences come from interpretation. When we read scripture we take it as the final authority. We believe the bible in of it self is the revealed word and will of God to His people. We don’t accept any tradition that is not revealed in scripture.

We don’t see Peter revealed as pope in scripture

We are a priesthood of believers

Binding and loosing is referred to in three places Jn 20:23, Mt 18:18 and mt 16:19 and are not mutually exclusive to Peter but to all believers.

1 Tim 3:15 Is addressed to Timothy and his congregation. The church should show how people “ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” It is talking of all churches it is not establishing the CC. Just read the whole chapter in context please.

It seems every time the word church is mentioned in the bible the CC thinks it is talking specifically about them

Jesus did not found the CC He founded the body of Christ. Salvation is only found in the person of Jesus Christ through His sacrifice on the cross for our sins.

This is not a complete list Hope this helps.
 
Hello Abu I don’t deny Jesus at all He alone is my only hope.
Our differences come from interpretation. When we read scripture we take it as the final authority. We believe the bible in of it self is the revealed word and will of God to His people. We don’t accept any tradition that is not revealed in scripture.
First, it does not make sense to take just the Bible as the final authority. The books of the New Testament were compiled by St Jerome around 380 A.D.

Second, St Paul himself tells the Thessalonians “Stand fast and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by out letter.” 2Thess 2:15. Clearly St. Paul does not believe in Scripture Alone.

Thirdly, think about what any of the authors of the books of the New Testament would think, if someone had told them, that their writings would be used as the sole source of Christian faith. Do you think they would have agreed? Or better yet, if someone had asked them to write up something that would be included in the New Testament of Christian faith, do you think they would have written the exact same thing? The logical answer is no, because all the letters in the NT were written to specific people with specific problems. Are those letters extremely useful to us? Absolutely, in fact the Catholic Church does nothing that would contradict scripture. But it is difficult to think they should be used alone, especially when we have Tradition.

Finally, consider what it was that the Apostles taught when they went and founder a Church. They did it in person, not by letter. They preached the Gospel of Jesus orally. Also consider that when they were doing this, they were also training their own disciples. St John trained Polycarp who trained Irenaeus. We have many of the writings of Irenaeus. Now they are not held on the same level as Scripture, but they are considered extremely important.
 
Binding and loosing is referred to in three places Jn 20:23, Mt 18:18 and mt 16:19 and are not mutually exclusive to Peter but to all believers.
Jn 20:23 and Mt 16:19 are clearly spoken to the disciples.

Mt 18:18 is also spoken to just the disciples, but the language does appear that it applies to all men. But think about that, and see if it makes sense. Could you explain how this would work for each person? If I hold someone accountable (bound) then God will also hold them accountable?
1 Tim 3:15 Is addressed to Timothy and his congregation. The church should show how people “ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” It is talking of all churches it is not establishing the CC. Just read the whole chapter in context please.
It seems every time the word church is mentioned in the bible the CC thinks it is talking specifically about them
Jesus did not found the CC He founded the body of Christ. Salvation is only found in the person of Jesus Christ through His sacrifice on the cross for our sins.
This is not a complete list Hope this helps.
How many different forms of Christianity existed from 100 A.D. to 1000 A.D. (to use even numbers)?

Answer: ONE.

When the NT talks about a the Church, it is talking about the Universal Church that Christ Founded. The word Catholic means universal. So yes, when the Church is mentioned, we know that it is talking about the One Church that Christ founded.

Look at the state of Christianity today since the Reformation. Can you honestly say that Christianity is better off? I suppose only if you believe that the Catholic Church is wrong. But then who is right? I have already shown that Scripture Alone deprives itself of the Full Faith of Christ. It is only the Catholic Church (East and West) that posses the Traditions of the Church as handed down by the Apostles. The very same Apostles that Christ called. If they all got it wrong, then are you saying that Jesus should have chosen different disciples?
 
Jn 20:23 and Mt 16:19 are clearly spoken to the disciples.

Mt 18:18 is also spoken to just the disciples, but the language does appear that it applies to all men. But think about that, and see if it makes sense. Could you explain how this would work for each person? If I hold someone accountable (bound) then God will also hold them accountable?

This thread shows to me the importance of balance. Too often quoting Scripture comes down to quoting the 2 or 3 points that prove my point while ignoring those that contradict my point. IMO it is important that you consider revelation as both Scripture and Tradition. Both a Catholic and non Catholic Christian can be vexed by this.

The Catholic supports individual confession to a priest. Yet, I believe in the early Church one confessed to the entire community. How did the Church get to individual private confession?

To the Scripture only idea you have to resolve what the warly Church followed before the canon of the Bible was established, if not Tradition.
 
IMO it is important that you consider revelation as both Scripture and Tradition.
And your opinion is correct 😉
The Catholic supports individual confession to a priest. Yet, I believe in the early Church one confessed to the entire community. How did the Church get to individual private confession?
To the Scripture only idea you have to resolve what the warly Church followed before the canon of the Bible was established, if not Tradition.
catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9101frs.asp

Some answers here, especially the last 3 🙂
 
First, it does not make sense to take just the Bible as the final authority. The books of the New Testament were compiled by St Jerome around 380 A.D.

Second, St Paul himself tells the Thessalonians “Stand fast and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by out letter.” 2Thess 2:15. Clearly St. Paul does not believe in Scripture Alone.

Thirdly, think about what any of the authors of the books of the New Testament would think, if someone had told them, that their writings would be used as the sole source of Christian faith. Do you think they would have agreed? Or better yet, if someone had asked them to write up something that would be included in the New Testament of Christian faith, do you think they would have written the exact same thing? The logical answer is no, because all the letters in the NT were written to specific people with specific problems. Are those letters extremely useful to us? Absolutely, in fact the Catholic Church does nothing that would contradict scripture. But it is difficult to think they should be used alone, especially when we have Tradition.

Finally, consider what it was that the Apostles taught when they went and founder a Church. They did it in person, not by letter. They preached the Gospel of Jesus orally. Also consider that when they were doing this, they were also training their own disciples. St John trained Polycarp who trained Irenaeus. We have many of the writings of Irenaeus. Now they are not held on the same level as Scripture, but they are considered extremely important.
The books did not just appear in 380. They were widely re/copied and sent to the churches.

Traditions were given past tense implying there are no new ones, Pauls traditions are revealed in the bible. Do you know the traditions Paul has left out of the bible? Is the bible infallible?

God inspired them to write what they wrote. Did the OT authors think they were writing scripture? I don not think so but that was for God to decide.

The apostles built the body of Christ. You are you may have historical documents that are not on the same level as the bible.
 
Jericho777
You are unaware that Catholic was first used by St Ignatius of Antioch in his letter to the Smyrneans, A.D. 107, “Where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” It is from the Greek katholike meaning “general” or “universal”. Within 90 years it meant also “orthodox” or faithful to the teachings of Christ. (The Catholic Catechism, Fr John A Hardon, S.J., Doubleday, 1975, p 217).

As you don’t have the Tradition of the Fathers and Doctors of Christ’s Catholic Church from the beginning, how can you know unless you are shown? As the eunuch said to Phillip: “How can I know unless some man shows me?” (Acts 8:31). Jesus did not leave us orphans; He gave us His Church and She gave us the Bible.

As you are now aware, Christ’s Catholic Church gave us the Bible and selfist interpretations, like your own, have produced many thousands of sects of all shades of belief and unbelief, with no authority to guide anyone. “Scripture alone” denies Christ who gave us His Church with His Vicar on earth.

The square of choices into which you have boxed yourself by choosing to deny Christ’s teaching and action: Peter: pope/apostle only |Salvation: Church/Jesus only |Final authority: Pope/Bible – are incompatible with reality and truth. Only you can choose to return to both.

I pray and trust that you do.
 
EnterCanaan (#7)
St Paul: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). What is lacking in Christ’s suffering is precisely what only we can do – take up our cross and suffer, repent and ask forgiveness, following the dictates of our conscience.
NO
This says that Paul was lacking in his own flesh. Nothing is lacking Christs death, Nothing, Christ is complete and harmony and if ever there is a lack of anything, it because of our own human failings. This is what Paul is talking about. this is not speaking of a miniscule, neglegent, tiny part of Christs work that is lacking thus we need to fill in the rest, that is work, we are not saved by our work, all the work was done by Christ and nothing He did is lacking for our salvation. This is how you understand this.
What St Paul is teaching is that our salvation depends on our co-operating with Jesus. We are redeemed only by His death. What is lacking is our co-operation. That is precisely why St Paul teaches: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12). We don’r achieve salvation in one fell swoop by accepting Christ as our personal saviour as some are misled to feel. St Paul knows very well what he is teaching: “I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of His Body which is the Church.” (Col. 1:24). The members of His Body have to co-operate – no pain no gain.
 
LOL I don’t know what I’ve been thinking all this time. It just hit me I was 28 when I left the church. I was 24 when I got married 😊 Sorry about that.
lol. Even so. It’s never too late to come back home to the Church. 🙂
Before I left I was involved in church home study groups.
If you like to study, a lot of great Catholic Bible material and Catholic books and other material have come out since them – of a number and quality unheard of in previous years. In addtion to Catholic Answers, here are a few resources.

The St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology
Agape Bible Study
To Tell You The Whole Truth About The Catholic Church And The Bible
Catechism of the Catholic Church
EWTN

Give it a try–you may be surprised.🙂
 
The Church also controlled access to the Dead Sea Scrolls. It wasn’t until some people figured a way around the road block and published the work. Now us plain stupid folks can read it too.

People were killed for reading the word of God. That’s something to remember. How can you people defend and justify this haneous action. People in the OT were allowed to read and know sacred scripture. This is the word from God to his people.

There was a time not to long ago that this type of forum would landed you in some religious hot water. I’m surprised they let this thing stay up now. You can not defend the Churches action and still want to use this forum because this forum is exactly what the Church was trying to protect itself from. Remember only clergy have the training and authority from the Church to read and discuss scripture. So you all are banned from this forum from this day forth. 😉
The church had possesion and controlled access to them. I was just on timemagazine.com These are a couple of links but there are a lot more. This was brought about by scholars wanting to do reasearch but were denied access by the church. They have had stories on The History Channel, Learning and Discovery etc Check it out.

www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,958357,00.html
time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,152413,00.html
Lost again I think you are answering your own question when you post these statements from the CC. There is great backing from the members here for the church’s actions. They are making exceses nothing more. The word was never forbidden in the OT and was available to all. Regular people would read scripture in the synagogue. Their claim people were unable to read is non sense. Why did they not teach people to read then they would have no excuse? Only two groups did not, do not want scripture to be read by people communists and the CC. That should tell you something.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Jericho, with respect, you’re full of bologna.
And your sources are (w/o respect, because they don’t deserve it!) full of three-day-old carp.
Good grief!! It was only in the 19th Century that reading became something anything like common among ordinary folk. One of them was my great-grandmother, who never went to school a day in her life; she had to work, and little girls in mid-1860s Holland weren’t considered to have the ability to learn to read anyway; she taught herself, so she could read her Bible. (Oh, yes, the source of all this [very real] repression was the Dutch Reformed Church).

As for the claims mentioned by OP, the one I really want to address is the one about Wycliffe. He got in trouble with the English monarchy for translating the Bible; the Catholic Church had nothing to do with it. The British were notorious for wanting to keep their ‘subjects’ illiterate. This applied equally to Catholic & non-Catholic monarchs, none of whom wanted anything to interfere with their :rolleyes:“divine right” to rule anyone they could.

Jericho, you need to get out more and read some books that didn’t come from Jack Chick’s fevered imagination.
 
Jericho,
No offense, but ever since you posted the “the Church forbade publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls” or “the Church kept medieval people stupid and ignorant”, I just found it hard to take you seriously. Precisely because I’ve never heard of your theories from more reputable sources - including non-Catholic ones.

I’ll admit that if there’s anything I ever hate, it’s the perpetuation of the lie cooked up during the ‘Enlightenment’ that the Middle Ages are dark and that medieval folk are dirty, stupid hillbillies. Interestingly, the old red herring that the Church oppressed people during this time period is exactly a by-product of this misconception - some thinkers during this so-called ‘Age of Reason’ had a distrust of religion, considering it antithetical to reason, and spread this little story which became accepted as fact, even unto the present day (seriously, how many people still think that all medievals thought the earth was flat?)

Finally, know what the funny thing is? Many conspiracy theories involving Christians/the Catholic Church usually follow the following elements:

1.) The masses are so gullible and stupid enough to be deceived for millenia.
2.) Christianity is evil.
3.) The masses are a bunch of dumb folk.
4) Christianity hides the truth, which are a direct threat to them.
5.) The very evil Christians - more specifically, the Catholics in the form of the Vatican - hides some potential threat to the faith to (1) keep the masses dumb and gullible and (2) so the reality that they are a bunch of evil liars will never ever be discovered.
6.) Those who ‘know the truth’ are obviously smarter than the brainwashed common man.
7.) Did I mention that the masses are so stupid and gullible?
The Church also controlled access to the Dead Sea Scrolls. It wasn’t until some people figured a way around the road block and published the work. Now us plain stupid folks can read it too.
First of all, let’s apply common sense here. Why would the Catholic Church forbid the publication of some bunch of ancient texts, some of which have no relation to Christianity at all (but is of interest to those researching the religious and political climate around the time of Jesus)?

Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls were published in a prompt manner: all of the writing found in Cave 1 appeared in print between 1950 and 1956; the finds from 8 different caves were released in a single volume in 1963; and 1965 saw the publication of the Psalms Scroll from Cave 11. Translation of these materials quickly followed. The exception to this speed was the documents from Cave 4, which represented 40% of the total material. So, even before the material was completely published, we had 60% of it in public access!

The publication was indeed entrusted to an international team led by Fr. Roland de Vaux O.P., archeologist, director of the École Biblique in Jerusalem, a French Dominican-run establishment which specialises in archaeology and Biblical exegesis, and author of the classic work Ancient Israel: Its Life and Institutions. However, a single priest and his personal decisions is hardly ‘the Catholic Church’. We might as well say that one Lutheran pastor is say, the ‘Missouri Synod’!

The story continues:

This group published the first volume of the materials entrusted to them in 1968, but spent much of their energies defending their theories of the material instead of publishing it.

Geza Vermes, who had been involved from the start in the editing and publication of these materials, blamed the delay - and eventual failure - on de Vaux’s selection of a team unsuited to the quality of work he had planned, as well as relying “on his personal, quasi-patriarchal authority” to control the completion of the work.

As a result, the finds from Cave 4 were not made public for many years. Access to the scrolls was governed by a “secrecy rule” that allowed only the original International Team or their designates to view the original materials.

After de Vaux’s death in 1971, his successors repeatedly refused to even allow the publication of photographs of these materials so that other scholars could at least make their judgments.

This rule was eventually broken: first by the publication in the fall of 1991 of 17 documents reconstructed from a concordance that had been made in 1988 and had come into the hands of scholars outside of the International Team; next, that same month, by the discovery and publication of a complete set of photographs of the Cave 4 materials at the Huntington Library in San Marino, California, that were not covered by the “secrecy rule”.

After some delays these photographs were published by Robert Eisenman and James Robinson (A Facsimile Edition of the Dead Sea Scrolls, two volumes, Washington, D.C., 1991). As a result, the “secrecy rule” was lifted, and publication of the Cave 4 documents soon commenced, with five volumes in print by 1995.
 
People were killed for reading the word of God. That’s something to remember. How can you people defend and justify this haneous action. People in the OT were allowed to read and know sacred scripture. This is the word from God to his people.
Now, you’re correct that some, such as Alan Millard, now propose that there was indeed a “literate mindset” in ancient, pre-exilic Israel (not to be confused with the modern idea of ‘literacy’), based on some of the available data we have today; say, a few scraps of pottery with names or words written on them or inscriptions or letters or receipts. This is contrary to the traditional idea among scholars (first proposed in the 19th century) that because the Israelites were originally desert nomads, they were a “no-read no-write” people who purely relied on oral tradition.

However, determining literacy is difficult (even today, but in a lesser extent than in the ancient world) because reliable statistics are not available nor are there any objective criteria for assessing it. If we look at other ancient cultures, the literacy rate - as we interpret it - is not that high; there are even a number of kings who could not write or read. This may suggest that we should not overstate the extent of literacy in ancient Israel as well. At best, some think that general literacy cannot be claimed before the 8th-7th centuries BC, where there is an abundance of epigraphic evidence, though this is also not disputed.

The issues we have here: whether ancient Israelites were literate, the extent of this literacy (say, whether ‘literacy’ involves the ability only to read or only to write or both, or whether commoners, and not just the upper classes, have such ability), are just some of the many debates raging among Biblical scholars today.

Israelite culture, like most of their neighbors, was an oral- rather than a writing-oriented culture. Before they were set into writing, many things were passed on by word of mouth. Even had many of the ancient Israelites been literate, they would not have relied on the written word to the extent like we moderns do; they mostly relied on their own memory (and the ancients had a very powerful one, honed out of necessity and practice). Many stories, songs, poems and proverbs were handed down by word of mouth; sometimes, these would be put into writing, but written texts just served a secondary purpose in such a culture, and must be understood in terms of its continuity and interaction with the oral world.

Now to go on. We need to consider that:

1.) The situation might not hold true for the rest of the world.
2.) The situation might not hold true for later periods.

By the time of Jesus, in Roman-occupied Judea as well as most of the Empire, literacy was low and mostly confined to the political and cultural elite - at this time, few commoners were actually able to read or write (IMO, most of those who knew how probably did because it was required for them; say, their jobs) - rates in various areas were estimated to be around two to ten percent. One study even puts the rates for Judea at three percent!

The books of the New Testament were written in this situation. As mentioned, there was more emphasis on the oral than on the written word: they were not a ‘book culture’. Plays, poetries, songs and stories were designed to be recited and enacted, publicly - in many cases, the reader would probably not even need a written text and could just recite it all from memory. The written copy is just a memory aid (which would not probably even be needed most of the time), a silent record of a much richer experience. The written word existed mainly in service of the spoken.

It is in this situation that the New Testament books were composed: they were originally designed, not to be taken from some shelf and be read privately in silence, but to be recited and read loudly at gatherings, where many attendees probably could not even make out what the funny scrawls on the papyrus mean. The historical Christian Churches (i.e. the Catholic, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox) actually preserve this element: did you ever note that during a Mass or a Divine Liturgy, the priest or deacon or a layman reads designated readings from the Bible? This is a carryover of that ancient practice.
 
So let me see all the things stated in the opening post are wrong. No body here supports or condones or justifies what the church did. Is that what you are saying.
 
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chessmane4e5:
I like knowing that when I read a Catholic bible, it says what the Magisterium via the Holy Spirit wants it to say. Remind the people that are trying to talk you out of this conversion that it was Luther that added the Word “alone” to the bible he had translated in German

The same goes for interpreting the bible. I trust the Magisterium guided by the Holy Spirit.
First of all, I advise the Protestant to stay where they belong and do not bow your knee to the claims of Rome. To begin with, why are you so infatuated with the Magisterium’s alleged ability to interpret the Bible? The amount of verses they have “officially” interpreted can be counted on one hand. She has therefore left 98% of the Bible UNINTERPRETED.

In regard to Justification being by faith alone, we need to recognize that the typical Roman Catholic complaint is that Martin Luther manipulated the Scriptures by inserting the word “alone” following “faith” to validate his doctrine. However, according to R.C. Sproul’s, “Faith Alone”, ROMAN CATHOLIC translators before Luther had done the same thing! The Nuremberg Bible of 1483 reads, ““Nur durch den glaben” and the Italian Bibles of Geneva (1476) and of Venice (1538) read, “per sola fede”. Furthermore, in our own day, representatives of John Paul II signed a joint statement with Protestants that have the Catholic side agreeing to the resolution that justification is by faith alone (section 2C, Annex of the Joint Declaration). Moreover, in 1999, JPII became the first pope in history to approve the document which contained the sentence, “man is justified by faith alone”. Then on 11/19/08, at his audience at St. Peter’s Square, Pope Benedict became the second pope in history to admit, “when we read we are justified by faith apart from works of the law, Luther at that point translated, “justification by faith alone”. I shall return to this point at the end of the catechesis”. At the end, he stated, “Luther’s phrase of faith alone is true, if it is not opposed to faith in charity, in love.” From this admission, we are convinced that the document on justification issued by the Council of Trent, was in NO WAY INFALLIBLE as the RCC claims. Why? Because the Council’s rejection of Luther’s thesis (6th session, canon 9) in a blanket denial with no qualifiers such as that issued forth from Benedict, was a lynch job that the Lord God Almighty would never approve of. They certainly were well aware of the content of Luther’s writings because in 1520, Leo X appointed a commission to evaluate his work, which they subsequently condemned in the papal bull Exsurge Domine. Luther’s books were thereafter burned and he was ex-communicated in still yet another Bull. So the Council of Trent was more than a little aquainted with his writings. And guess what? LUTHER’S WORKS WERE NEVER OPPOSED TO FAITH DEVOID OF LOVE!
Trent: “If any one shall say that the sinner is justified by faith alone, in the sense that nothing else is required…let him be accursed”. Trent correctly identified the root evil of what James means when he says, 'MAN IS NOT JUSTIFIED BY FAITH ALONE” (2:24). But they are guilty of gross misrepresentation, railing against a complete misunderstanding of sole fide which Luther never taught, neither did the Reformers ever believe, nor do Protestants today! Trent said, “the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of those that are justified” (Session 5, chap 7).
And Luther said, “[We] are accepted as such through the imputation of Christ’s righteousness, but our hearts also become righteous because God’s Holy Spirit is poured into the heart and He brings love and new obedience with Him.” (“The Theology of Martin Luther”, by P. Althaus, p. 234).
 
A few years ago I returned to the Catholic Church after more than 50 years of being a Protestant. The answer to your question is to stop listening to reasons for not being a Catholic and to focus on reasons for being a Catholic. Read the letters St Ignatius wrote to the various Churches as he was being led to Rome to be fed to the lions. These letters were written around 100 AD and they clearly demonstrate that the very early Church was not Protestant. If you can listen to the Coming Home Program monday evenings on EWTN you will be able to listen to the reasons many Protestants (especially ministers) come to the Catholic Church.
Your answer is no more relevent than me saying to the person to focus on reasons for staying Protestant, and focus on all the glorious reasons why Christ’s church cannot be that of the Roman Church. It was a worthless apologetic.
More to the point, the word “church” is used well over 100 times in Holy Writ and not once does it refer to a monolithic religious superstructure situated in Rome!
 
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