How do I answer this one?

[inkaneer]

No Not beleivers rather those outside the kingdom(believers are of the kingdom)non believers are outside.

Are you saying Paul was writing to nonbelievers as well as believers? I suggest you read Paul’s letters again. Paul was writing to believers only. He had already preached in all the places he wrote letters to. His letters are remedial in nature addressing some aspect of the faith. They are not bible tracts to be left where the public can read them.

Actually the very fact that there is more than one protestant christain group/church/fellowship/assembly,etc…says something in its self.

Yeah, it says they are not led by the Holy Spirit and sola scriptura, the reason for the fracturing of protestantism, is a false doctrrine. There is only one truth not 40,000 or whatever the number is of protestant denominations. The Holy Spirit is a unifying force but protestantism is chaos. It is like an amoeba constantly dividing and subdividing. There is an old Jeswish saying that when two Jews disagree the result is three opinions. When two protestants disagree the result is a new denomination.

 

[fbl9]

Just as Jesus spoke in parables to keep the truth of God form those outside the kingdom Mark 4:12. So Paul did in his letters to believers. Notice Paul is talking about ignorant and unstable people not believers.

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[fbl9]

Wait a minute. If Paul was writing to believers then why is Paul trying to keep the truth of God from them? You are not making any sense.

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[fbl9]

Sorry for the misunderstanding…What Jericho was saying was that St.Paul did not write to non-believers in oreder to keep the truth from them in his writings.Just as Jericho feels Jesus did the same.

 

[jericho777]

Tell me where did you get that bunch of B.S.? I know you did not get it from the scriptures. Second your posting of 2 Tim 3:16 contradicts all you said above it. Third, while 2 Tim 3:16 says “All Scripture is useful…” It does not say “ONLY scripture is useful…” Fourth, being useful is far different than being a “perfect study guide”[your words]. Scripture never makes that claim. Fifth, scripture says the church is the pillar and foundation of truth [1 Timothy 3:15]. That contradicts your statements above and if sola scriptura was true then that verse would be in error. But scripture is not in error, is it? Sixth, you fail to address my point about the thousands of protestant denominations who are “led by the Spirit” yet who cannot agree on doctrine. Why?

Since all scripture is God breathed it carries the most weigth and is Gods final authority.

 

[jericho777]

Again you misunderstand the words of God…for the words we are discussing clearly show that these men did not have a great love of God rather they had a great love for thier postion,“their hearts are far from me” if that is love then count me out.

What is the difference with your man made rules compared to theirs? Neither of them are in scripture yet you both think they are of God.

 

[jericho777]

Wait a minute. If Paul was writing to believers then why is Paul trying to keep the truth of God from them? You are not making any sense.

No, we are not saying that at all. You want to make the Catholic position out to be that the bible is a bedtime story that the church reads to us. But the Catholic position is that Jesus established a church with authority and to that church He sent the Holy Spirit to guide into the truth. Just as the OT Jews did not have authority to interpret the law neither does the NT believer. If you read Matthew 23:2 Jesus says the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat and Jesus tells the people to obey them. Moses was the law giver. The pharisees were his successors Now if you read the gospel of John you will see that the Spirit of truth was not promised to all of Jesus desciples but only to a select few numbering only eleven. This idea that individual “believers” can interpret the Bible correctly is a fraudulent doctrine because the protestant premise of being led by the Spirit of truth is a myth. Over 40,000 protestant denominations and counting tells me and should tell you that the Holy Spirit is not leading protestants. If He were, they would be one.

Paul is not trying to keep believers from the word it’s those who are ignorant and unstable.

An outward form of religion does not save only relationship with Jesus can do that.

What do you think the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is for? The Holy Spirit is promised to all believers and gives all spiritual gifts for the edifying of believers.

You wont admit it but you have many denominations in the catholic church. Not even all the priests believe what Rome teaches. And they teach others differently.

 

[inkaneer]

Since all scripture is God breathed it carries the most weigth and is Gods final authority.

And this is stated where in scripture? You still haven’t explained why scripture calls the church the pillar and foundation of truth. If scripture was the final authority as you claim then scripture shoulsd say that scripture is the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[sablouwho]

Lately the tactic has been “Why would you want to return to a church that persecuted people for reading the bible in their own language”?

Dear Lost_Again:

I haven’t read this entire thread–I am just replying to your original post. The objection they cite seems inherently faulty in terms of logic (not that I’m an expert in logic!)

To me (I’m no expert in religious history either) it seems that every religion is going to have times of “people behaving badly in the name of the faith”. I am guessing you could easily find something wrong with the faith that you are currently in, and say to them “Why would I want to remain in a faith that did X?” where X=some “bad” thing that people did, supposedly in the name of faith.

All I think a person can do is make the best choice for themselves and follow where God is leading them. Someone else is always going to object and think that you are wrong, no matter what faith you choose–it’s simply human nature.

I hope that you find what you are looking for and that it brings you peace.

 

[inkaneer]

Paul is not trying to keep believers from the word it’s those who are ignorant and unstable.

So in his 2 letters to Timothy as well as his leters to Titus and Philemon who is ignorant and unstable? Please show me the scripture verse where Paul says he is writing in some form of code or parable so those ignorant and unstable won’t understand and thus remain ignorant and unstable. I thought Paul was a missionary who set out to convert everyone. I think you better go back to square #1.

An outward form of religion does not save only relationship with Jesus can do that.

The Body of Christ is hardly an outward sign of religion. If you want a relationship with Jesus you can’t have it outside His church.

What do you think the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is for? The Holy Spirit is promised to all believers and gives all spiritual gifts for the edifying of believers.

False, absolutely false. Just look at the divisions in protestantism and get your head out of the sand. You can’t have 40,000 denominations all claiming to be led by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the author of chaos. The promise of the Spirit of Truth was not made to all of Jesus disciples only to the eleven Apostles. Your whole premise is flawed. Garbage in, garbage out. That simple.

You wont admit it but you have many denominations in the catholic church. Not even all the priests believe what Rome teaches. And they teach others differently,

There is only one Catholic Church. Quit lying.

 

[jericho777]

And this is stated where in scripture? You still haven’t explained why scripture calls the church the pillar and foundation of truth. If scripture was the final authority as you claim then scripture shoulsd say that scripture is the pillar and foundation of truth.

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof,
for correction, and for training in righteousness.

The church itself is not truth but it should be the repository of truth. And nowhere does it say the catholic church is the true church or they are the final authority.

 

[jericho777]

So in his 2 letters to Timothy as well as his leters to Titus and Philemon who is ignorant and unstable? Please show me the scripture verse where Paul says he is writing in some form of code or parable so those ignorant and unstable won’t understand and thus remain ignorant and unstable. I thought Paul was a missionary who set out to convert everyone. I think you better go back to square #1.

The Body of Christ is hardly an outward sign of religion. If you want a relationship with Jesus you can’t have it outside His church.

False, absolutely false. Just look at the divisions in protestantism and get your head out of the sand. You can’t have 40,000 denominations all claiming to be led by the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the author of chaos. The promise of the Spirit of Truth was not made to all of Jesus disciples only to the eleven Apostles. Your whole premise is flawed. Garbage in, garbage out. That simple.

There is only one Catholic Church. Quit lying.

Those who are not of the kingdom will be unable to understand scripture as Jesus had taught. Without God’s grace the words of God will be foolishness to them. 1Chor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Religion is a poor substitute for the body of Christ. A personal relationship with Jesus only builds the body of Christ

You keep talking while bible believing christians will continue demonstrating the power and presence of God in His body. I see the active work of God in our congregation and in my families life.

 

[chessmane4e5]

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof,
for correction, and for training in righteousness.

The church itself is not truth but it should be the repository of truth. And nowhere does it say the catholic church is the true church or they are the final authority.

1 Cor. 11:2 - Paul commends the faithful to obey apostolic tradition, and not Scripture alone. More here scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html

The Church does have Authority as indicated by Matt 16:13-19. The Church was built upon Peter, who was given the Keys to the Kingdom and the Power to loose and bind. I believe it is only the Catholic Church that can trace it’s leadership back to Peter.

 

[inkaneer]

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof,
for correction, and for training in righteousness.

The church itself is not truth but it should be the repository of truth. And nowhere does it say the catholic church is the true church or they are the final authority.

I’m sorry but being “profitable” for something is a long way off from “…carries the most weigth and is Gods final authority”. Jesus did say to the Apostles, He who hears you hears Me." He never said, “He who reads what you write reads Me.” In addition most of the Apostles never wrote anything. You are suffering from sola scriptura and a poor self image of what exactly the church is. The church has authority. That is documented in Acts. That authority can override scripture. Don’t believe me then why do christians worship on Sunday and not the Sabbath as the scripture commands? Why did the Apostles overide scripture during the crisis in Antioch in Acts 15? There the Apostles never consulted scripture. They claimed a direct revelation from the Holy Spirit. Your “final authority” doesn’t seem to be so final now does it?

 

[inkaneer]

Those who are not of the kingdom will be unable to understand scripture as Jesus had taught. Without God’s grace the words of God will be foolishness to them. 1Chor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

That does not mean these people were “foolish and unstable” They could be very intelligent and sane. They just don’t believe. There is a difference.

Religion is a poor substitute for the body of Christ. A personal relationship with Jesus only builds the body of Christ

Protestantism is a religion. Protestantism is not a relationship whith Christ. You want a relationship with Christ then you have to abide in Him and He abides in you. How is that done? Jesus tells us in John 6:53-56:

"53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.” [John 6:53-56]

You can’t do that in any form of protestantism.

You keep talking while bible believing christians will continue demonstrating the power and presence of God in His body. I see the active work of God in our congregation and in my families life.

I see it in the Catholic Church. In the recent March for Life in Washington, D.C. the overwhelming majority of marchers were Catholic. I saw very few protestant groups.

 

[Lost_Again]

I have been slowly working my way back to the Catholic faith but as the members of my present church try and talk me out of it, I find myself in a battle to defend my decision.

Folks, I have to admit that I had not been keeping track of all the replies to this post and after reading most of them, I really wish I hadn’t come back to check on it.

You see I finally met with the RCIA Director at my old catholic church, something I’ve been trying convince myself to do for a couple years. We had about a two hour talk and to be honest I was all set to “Swim the Tiber” and go to confession and then back to mass this weekend.

Then I came back here and read all the angry posts and exchanges between Protestants and Catholics and it reminded me why I had become fed up with Christianity in the first place.

PEOPLE WAKE UP!

Do you really think that God has a master Scorecard in heaven that says

Catholics 10
Protestants 10

Lets see who’s going to win the tie breaker?

Gimme a break… and for heavens sake don’t start throwing scripture around because trust me after 6 years of being caught between the two faiths I am sick of hearing it!

I’ll probably get banned for saying this but what the heck… it may be time to burn some bridges anyway.

There is a war coming as described in Revelation … and that War is going to be between Satan’s church (which to me is Islam) and God’s church on earth. At some point YOU may have to take up arms in that fight. I would sincerely hope that if/when that time comes you would all learn that it doesn’t matter if the man (or woman) watching your back is a Catholic, a Methodist, a Baptist, a Lutheran, a Orthodox Greek, etc, etc.

All that matters is that the person that has your back is a CHRISTIAN. A believer in Jesus Christ, and a believer in a Triune God. PEOPLE if we can’t learn to get past these assinine differences, then surely the devil will win!

I am sure there are many that would consider this a “Poly Anna” view… but WE CHRISTIANS need to stop focusing on our differences. If I learned anything the last 6 years as a Baptist is that we’re really not all that different. All of us want to worship God in our own way AS IS OUR RIGHT… at least for the time being in America.

Our rights as CHRISTIANS are being eroded every day in this country and yet what do we focus on??? We focus on looking for more and innovative ways to prove each other wrong…

With no disrespect to everyone who responded. Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut but to be honest it hasn’t helped me. I am now going to go put in a request to delete my account and continue my quest for God in my own way. It may be as a returning Catholic it may not. Heck, I may end up back at my Baptist church! It is no longer MY decision…I am going to put it in God’s hands once and for all and be done with it because I am tired of the conflict.

I do hope that these words do not fall on deaf ears.

May OUR CHRISTIAN GOD Bless and keep all of you.