How do I argue with this person?

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PadraigPearce

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So I was having an argument with a friend the other day about Dawkins’ book “The God Delusion”. My friend brought up the idea Dawkins put forth in his book that if God created the universe He would have to be even more complex than the universe itself. I think this is one of Dawkins’ biggest misunderstandings about the nature of God. We understand God to be perfectly simple, but for someone like Dawkins, and my friend, who don’t believe in metaphysical claims, that line of thinking is just nonsense. How can I explain the Catholic position on the simplicity of God to a person like that? Even if I can’t convince him, I’d like to be able to explain it better.
 
So I was having an argument with a friend the other day about Dawkins’ book “The God Delusion”. My friend brought up the idea Dawkins put forth in his book that if God created the universe He would have to be even more complex than the universe itself. I think this is one of Dawkins’ biggest misunderstandings about the nature of God. We understand God to be perfectly simple, but for someone like Dawkins, and my friend, who don’t believe in metaphysical claims, that line of thinking is just nonsense. How can I explain the Catholic position on the simplicity of God to a person like that? Even if I can’t convince him, I’d like to be able to explain it better.
Don’t argue. Ask.

Don’t debate. Listen.

Don’t win the argument but lose your friend.

Do try to find the truth together; you might be pleasantly surprised to find God gave you each half of the truth that together form the whole.

🙂
 
So I was having an argument with a friend the other day about Dawkins’ book “The God Delusion”. My friend brought up the idea Dawkins put forth in his book that if God created the universe He would have to be even more complex than the universe itself. I think this is one of Dawkins’ biggest misunderstandings about the nature of God. We understand God to be perfectly simple, but for someone like Dawkins, and my friend, who don’t believe in metaphysical claims, that line of thinking is just nonsense. How can I explain the Catholic position on the simplicity of God to a person like that? Even if I can’t convince him, I’d like to be able to explain it better.
First of all, I don’t agree with your friend that God must be complex if he created the universe. However, I must also disagree with you that the Christian God is simple. Allow me to explain…

When we say that “God is complex,” that’s just shorthand for “the God hypothesis is complex.” In other words, God might be simple in one sense or another, while claims about God remain quite involved. For example, some theologians have posited a doctrine called divine simplicity to characterize God, denying that he has “parts.” However, we are not concerned with the metaphysical makeup of God, but rather the parsimonious elegance (or lack thereof) of the claim that some particular God exists, and that he is active in the world. So, developing doctrines like divine simplicity actually adds to the complexity of the God hypothesis itself.

That said, it’s not clear that the principle of parsimony—AKA Occam’s razor—ought to be applied to God’s alleged existence, since it is so alien from ordinary empirical claims. So, that’s a possible defense against Dawkins’ argument. As long as you hold to the general package of orthodox Christian doctrine, however, with its doctrines of original sin, Trinitarian personhood, bodily Resurrection, etc., there’s no denying that your claim is exceedingly complex.
 
Assuming Dawkins is basing his claim in the philosophical premise that nothing created can be greater than that which created it, isn’t the onus on Dawkins to prove that God is not as or more complex than the universe? How does he substantiate this claim?
 
Hello and great that you have deep debates. However, the word ARGUE is telling. Do not argue. Just listen. This person has a deep understanding of his/hero own beliefs, and you’ll just feed into him. It doesn’t matter what he thinks, and it doesn’t matter what he thinks of you. Just simply state what you believe and tell him that his ideas are very interesting and you’ll think about it. Be open minded. He may have some ideas to ponder to strengthen your OWN perspectives. READ READ READ stay educated!
 
Not nearly as complex as your explanation :hmmm:😃
Can you dumb it down a little? :o
Sure.

God may or may not be complex, but regardless, the fact remains that the Christian religion is complex. If we prefer simple explanations, as we often do, then that makes Christianity an unattractive explanation for our experiences.
 
So I was having an argument with a friend the other day about Dawkins’ book “The God Delusion”. My friend brought up the idea Dawkins put forth in his book that if God created the universe He would have to be even more complex than the universe itself. I think this is one of Dawkins’ biggest misunderstandings about the nature of God. We understand God to be perfectly simple, but for someone like Dawkins, and my friend, who don’t believe in metaphysical claims, that line of thinking is just nonsense. How can I explain the Catholic position on the simplicity of God to a person like that? Even if I can’t convince him, I’d like to be able to explain it better.
Ask him if complex organisms can arise from applying simple physical laws on simple elements.

I don’t mean to imply that it takes god to do that. I just think that complex things can be created by ‘simple’ means.

The second problem is with ‘complexity’ itself. But getting into that would make a long post…
 
Sure.

God may or may not be complex, but regardless, the fact remains that the Christian religion is complex. If we prefer simple explanations, as we often do, then that makes Christianity an unattractive explanation for our experiences.
Every person is complex. The Catholic faith becomes easier to understand the more you study and learn what it really teaches. Complexity is a matter of perspective. Where are you starting and where are you looking to go.

It all comes down to faith which in my opinion can be proven by searching for the definition of good.
 
Hello and great that you have deep debates. However, the word ARGUE is telling. Do not argue. Just listen. This person has a deep understanding of his/hero own beliefs, and you’ll just feed into him. It doesn’t matter what he thinks, and it doesn’t matter what he thinks of you. Just simply state what you believe and tell him that his ideas are very interesting and you’ll think about it. Be open minded. He may have some ideas to ponder to strengthen your OWN perspectives. READ READ READ stay educated!
I used the word argue, but they’re definitely friendly debates. I think I sometimes confuse people by saying I had an “argument” with so and so when it was really just a conversation.
 
Your friend has a valid point. Everything we know about the cosmos tells us complexity is gained incrementally from simplicity. There is not ONE exception to this that we know of.

God as described by christians is most definitely a complex entity, this as far as i am concerned is a non-starter, and one of the many reasons i reject the god hypothesis.
 
Your friend has a valid point. Everything we know about the cosmos tells us complexity is gained incrementally from simplicity. There is not ONE exception to this that we know of.

God as described by christians is most definitely a complex entity, this as far as i am concerned is a non-starter, and one of the many reasons i reject the god hypothesis.
Not sure what you mean a non-starter?
 
I mean that given that the hypothesis condtradicts every peice of knowledge we** currently **have regarding complexity… i currently reject it.
I suggest you simplify it and understand that God is good and then try to come to the point on what good really means. The spiritual journey the Catholic faith leads you is very complex, but if you believe the possibility of eternity, what do you have to lose?
 
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