How do I as a Catholic refute these Muslim claims

[IgnatianPhilo]

Hi Ignatian. This is what I am trying to understand. By what basis are you applying truth to be equal to love? Is there Scripture to back this assertion. Jesus asserted a COMMANDMENT to us, that we must love all as we do ourselves. I cannot fathom a more important instruction from God to man…a Commandment. Paul asserted the importance of unity to the Corinthians over truth. Love and unity over-ride truth. Do you have any scripture that asserts the opposite?

You can use a passage that identifies Jesus with the Truth, but this has no bearing on how we are to be when in correct relationship with God.

Thankyou friend. I will look for other sources. What do you consider a primary source?

Is this of any use?

rasoulallah.net/index.php/en/articles/article/240

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God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth. John 4:24

If we worship in falsehood, especially if we worship in spite of the truth being in front of us, what benefit is that to you? Now where did Paul assert unity was better than truth? Paul’s only point in Corinthians is to suggest they should not be divided in their allegiences to Christ. That they should say they are of certain communities because those communities actually are in communion with each other. Notice that Paul in Corinthians tells them that if Christ did not rise from the dead, our faith is useless. Paul has a doctrine, and it is not subject change or the whims of fancy. Paul fully believes in the gospel he received and preached.

God, it is said, cannot lie. I Believe it. You might not, that’s your decision.

Now, do you not know what a primary source is? A primary source is the source upon which you base your claim. If you say Muhammad did X, referring to a secondary source which is relying on a primary source (but does not disclose that source) does not count. It is like relying on a modern book instead of the gospels to know the life of Jesus. Basically I’m asking you, what are the earliest sources you have for your claim that Muhammad was so great? I know the sources and you do as well and as soon as you admit what those sources are the problem will be clear to you.

 

[tonyfish58]

How do the Bahai dare to defend the quran when the quran doesn’t even understand the Christianity it criticises? Will Bahail also defend Muhammad in this quranic statement?

Because we Love Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah with all out Heart and All Our Souls Dear Friend. As we do you and my wonderful friend Servant and all here on CAF

That dear friend is also Unconditional

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

To the OP, A WARNING is written in the Word of God, by a first century witness of Jesus Christ called by God to an apostle to the Gentiles, who was martyred for his Christian faith.

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel… **not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed…now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed”. **Galatians 1:6-9

For the nonbelievers;

“Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart…**we refuse to practise cunning or to tamper with God’s Word, **but by the open statement of Truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God…For it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” 2Corinthians 4:1-6

These words need no more interpretation, and are taken at face value for all ages.

Peace be with you

 

[Contarini]

Hello Edwin, thankyou for your thoughts. Firstly my sincere apologies for making assumptions. My human frailties of generalizing the mindset of Christians about Islam sometimes rears its ugly head and I must (and will) pray harder for this frailty to be removed

I value your position in relation to the phrase “they crucified Him not”. Is it possible that this phrase may be directed to the Jews and their reference to the Deuteronomy verse cursing those who are crucified?



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Maybe. But it’s still a denial that the crucifixion happened. And I think the point is that God didn’t allow such a dreadful thing to happen to His Prophet.

Edwin

 

[Servant19]

To the OP, A WARNING is written in the Word of God, by a first century witness of Jesus Christ called by God to an apostle to the Gentiles, who was martyred for his Christian faith.

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel… not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.…now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed”. Galatians 1:6-9

For the nonbelievers;

“Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart…we refuse to practise cunning or to tamper with God’s Word, but by the open statement of Truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God…For it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” 2Corinthians 4:1-6

These words need no more interpretation, and are taken at face value for all ages.

Peace be with you

Thankyou dear Gabriel

May I ask, who is preaching the true Gospel of Christ in todays modern world?

Catholics?
Orthodox?
Methodists?
Baptists?

Is this passage below a false gospel? If so, why?

"O My servants! Could ye apprehend with what wonders of My munificence and bounty I have willed to entrust your souls, ye would, of a truth, rid yourselves of attachment to all created things, and would gain a true knowledge of your own selves—a knowledge which is the same as the comprehension of Mine own Being. Ye would find yourselves independent of all else but Me, and would perceive, with your inner and outer eye, and as manifest as the revelation of My effulgent Name, the seas of My loving-kindness and bounty moving within you. Suffer not your idle fancies, your evil passions, your insincerity and blindness of heart to dim the luster, or stain the sanctity, of so lofty a station. Ye are even as the bird which soareth, with the full force of its mighty wings and with complete and joyous confidence, through the immensity of the heavens, until, impelled to satisfy its hunger, it turneth longingly to the water and clay of the earth below it, and, having been entrapped in the mesh of its desire, findeth itself impotent to resume its flight to the realms whence it came. Powerless to shake off the burden weighing on its sullied wings, that bird, hitherto an inmate of the heavens, is now forced to seek a dwelling-place upon the dust. Wherefore, O My servants, defile not your wings with the clay of waywardness and vain desires, and suffer them not to be stained with the dust of envy and hate, that ye may not be hindered from soaring in the heavens of My divine knowledge.

O My servants! Through the might of God and His power, and out of the treasury of His knowledge and wisdom, I have brought forth and revealed unto you the pearls that lay concealed in the depths of His everlasting ocean. I have summoned the Maids of Heaven to emerge from behind the veil of concealment, and have clothed them with these words of Mine—words of consummate power and wisdom. I have, moreover, with the hand of divine power, unsealed the choice wine of My Revelation, and have wafted its holy, its hidden, and musk-laden fragrance upon all created things. Who else but yourselves is to be blamed if ye choose to remain unendowed with so great an outpouring of God’s transcendent and all-encompassing grace, with so bright a revelation of His resplendent mercy?"

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[Servant19]

Maybe. But it’s still a denial that the crucifixion happened. And I think the point is that God didn’t allow such a dreadful thing to happen to His Prophet.

Edwin

Thankyou for your thoughts Edwin. I appreciate and cherish our dialogue here

God bless you

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[tonyfish58]

To the OP, A WARNING is written in the Word of God, by a first century witness of Jesus Christ called by God to an apostle to the Gentiles, who was martyred for his Christian faith.

“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel… not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.…now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed”. Galatians 1:6-9

For the nonbelievers;

“Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart…we refuse to practise cunning or to tamper with God’s Word, but by the open statement of Truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the likeness of God…For it is the God who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ” 2Corinthians 4:1-6

These words need no more interpretation, and are taken at face value for all ages.

Peace be with you

Peace be with you Gabriel of 12 Can I offer another view on what you have posted, because in the end it comes down to each persons Frame of Reference. What meaning one gets from those passages is entirely influenced by ones current understanding.

If one has a different Frame of reference then these passages could mean something exactly the opposite to which you posted!

Why do those quoted passages necessarily have to apply to those who are not Christians

In actual Fact It could be a warning to Christians!

If Baha’u’llah is who He Is, then it was a very good warning

Can you see that is a least a valid point of view.

How do you see us as being Unbelievers? What do you think we are taking away from Christ? I have already stated that a Baha’i would give their Life for Christ, over and over in Fact - Please God may it be

God Bless all and Regards Tony

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Because we Love Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah with all out Heart and All Our Souls Dear Friend. As we do you and my wonderful friend Servant and all here on CAF

That dear friend is also Unconditional

God Bless and Regards Tony

Non answer is a non answer. You will happily ignore the quran when it condemns Christians and you for calling Jesus God. And we have seen you as unbelievers in that you preach a different Gospel. But I want you to tell me, how do you know Muhammad was a good man who did the things you would believe about him? Servant can’t answer because he doesn’t know. Perhaps you do.

 

[tonyfish58]

Non answer is a non answer. You will happily ignore the quran when it condemns Christians and you for calling Jesus God. And we have seen you as unbelievers in that you preach a different Gospel. But I want you to tell me, how do you know Muhammad was a good man who did the things you would believe about him? Servant can’t answer because he doesn’t know. Perhaps you do.

Dear IgnatianPhilo - How do you Know Christ did the things you would believe about him?

You have answered the question you have asked of us

Dear friend in God, we do not deny or ignore the Koran? Link to Koran quran.com/1

2:2 - This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah.

This is a warning from the Koran

2:7 - Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

2:8 - And of the people are some who say, “We believe in Allah and the Last Day,” but they are not believers.

2:13 - And when it is said to them, “Believe as the people have believed,” they say, “Should we believe as the foolish have believed?” Unquestionably, it is they who are the foolish, but they know [it] not

3:3 - He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. 3:4 - Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Qur’an. Indeed, those who disbelieve in the verses of Allah will have a severe punishment, and Allah is exalted in Might, the Owner of Retribution.

The Koran is Gods Word Dear Friend, It is worth a read and meditation.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Servant19]

Non answer is a non answer. You will happily ignore the quran when it condemns Christians and you for calling Jesus God. And we have seen you as unbelievers in that you preach a different Gospel. But I want you to tell me, how do you know Muhammad was a good man who did the things you would believe about him? Servant can’t answer because he doesn’t know. Perhaps you do.

I am short of time today dear friend, but you asked for a primary source. Below is a link to Ibn Ishaq’s primary source Sirah

Please study the chapters related to the various battles where Muhammad protected women and children

archive.org/stream/TheLifeOfMohammedGuillaume/The_Life_Of_Mohammed_Guillaume#page/n0/mode/2up

Another primary source is of course the Quran itself and the commandments are clear and explicit:

“And why should you not fight in the cause of God and on behalf of those, who being weak, are ill-treated and oppressed, men, women and children whose cry is, ‘Our Lord! Rescue us from these oppressors, and raise for us, from You, one who will protect and help.’” (Qur’an 4:75)

Muhammad fought for the oppressed and downtrodden men, women and children. Something we should all be doing today.

“Do not annoy women as to make their lives miserable.” (Qur’an 65:6).

If a woman’s life is made miserable by a Muslim man, he is not following Islamic teaching.

I think Muhammad was good…

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[tonyfish58]

Dear People of CAF - The Word of God is the Most Potent thing we can Know.

It is not possible to Refute the Word of God!

Any thing we come up with as a Rejection of the Word of a Faith, will be a Rejection of All Gods Faiths. If a Christian Refutes the Koran, the same argument can be used against the Bible.

Now if the things we wish to discuss are interpretations of these Holy Scriptures, then that is a different Story, but in doing this the important thing here is that the conversation can not be an argument about the right view. It can be frank discussion, but should never cross the line of the fact that ‘God is Unity any disunity is not of God’.

An argument immediately renders both views invalid.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[clintonm]

Which argument that you could put forward would invalidate the Bible? Which argument from history, archeaology or faith causes it to not stand up? Is it a source issue? A factual issue? Or merely that it holds the Truth not found in any other document?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

tonyfish58;12194597]Peace be with you Gabriel of 12 Can I offer another view on what you have posted, because in the end it comes down to each persons Frame of Reference. What meaning one gets from those passages is entirely influenced by ones current understanding.

Greetings tonyfish58, I am honored that have chosen to engage the discussion here, so long as we are in keeping with OP.

I never offered my view from my post you responded from.

I posted a teaching from God’s Holy Word, that needs no interpretation.

What you offer to the Word of God is view that becomes philosophical not Truth.

The Word of God which is posted, deals with Truth that proposes to the reader’s response to be either, Yes or No, these deal with Truth of one either accepting God’s Word from a Yes to faith or no to faith in God.

What you imply is a philosophical view to the Truth, which can only lead one to confusion and destruction of God’s Word and revelation.

Your philosophical view which adds to God’s Word, is only just that philosophy. Any one can add philosophy upon philosophy, that is why your post’s enters the heresy of relativism, when you ask for all different view points to search for common ground, when all of these may be opposed to God’s Word.

In other words, let everyone’s own truth be measured to find a happy place, which creates a false faith and deception which waters down God’s Word and God’s revelations and teachings to our humanity.

So, NO I do not offer any view as you do in addition to God’s Word.

No meaning can change the first century author’s circumstances and reason being inspired by the Holy Spirit to write and reveal God’s Word to our humanity, which is applied to every age. I can’t change that, and neither can you.

As you stated, you can offer your own view to God’s Word, which enters the portals of philosophy, not Truth.

My reference and meaning that I get from the passage in question, has not changed for over 2000 years since it was written in the original language and understood from the original language.

What you offer and reference for others to do about God’s Word is change it to ones current understanding and apply such new philosophical undertakings from man and change the Word of God.

If the Catholic Church has not offered another view or changed God’s Word for over 2000 years. Why do you or Islam wish to offer your own view to the original writing of God’s Word?

If one has a different Frame of reference then these passages could mean something exactly the opposite to which you posted!

**I agree with you here, that is why we should not change the passage to fit every wind of doctrine invented by man, so as to take a “different Frame of reference” to God’s Word. Let your yes mean yes and your no mean no. “Anything else is of the devil”
**

How do you see us as being Unbelievers? What do you think we are taking away from Christ? I have already stated that a Baha’i would give their Life for Christ, over and over in Fact - Please God may it be

I don’t view any human being as unbelievers, we are all God’s children. An unbeliever is one who knows what God’s Word teaches and reveals and then rejects it in his/her no.

One who is ignorant of God’s Word and revelations is not an unbeliever.

Baha’i or Muhammad are both ignorant of the full deposit of faith of Jesus Christ. Because these received the full deposit of faith from the apostles. Yet both of these reveal a new and different gospel and a different Jesus.

Peace be with you

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Tony, I believe in the things about Christ because I trust the gospels. I trust the gospels because I trust the church. I trust the church because I am convinced historically the church is that institution which Christ reckoned. Will you avoid my question or will you answer it? How do you know anything about Muhammad? I know the sources, they are the hadiths and early written lives of the so called prophet. Can and will you compare those to the gospels which you maintain are sacred scripture? You dismiss the hadiths just as easily whenever something negative is said about Muhammad or could be bad for Muhammad’s reputation today but would have been totally acceptable back then (like Marrying a six year old and having Nine wives). I see no way the bahai or the Muslim can depend or trust anything in the sources which Islam bases its claims to the life of the so called Arabian Prophet. Those sources have yet to be studied in the way Christian origins have been investigated and I do not know how one could produce a methodology to sort out the false hadiths from the bad ones. Muslims propose an ideology and here it is, if Muhammad looks good, then its true but if it looks bad, it’s a false hadith.

This OP is one of the more powerful reasons to reject Islam, the life of it’s prophet, unlike Jesus, cannot be said to be authentic in specific ways. Sure there probably was a guy called Muhammad who started a religion cantered around monotheism. But to say the Quran definitely came from him, I don’t believe we can know that for sure.

Servant. As for Ibn Ishaq, are you willing to trust everything in there? Are you willing to accept the good stories along with the bad?

 

[Tomdstone]

May I ask, who is preaching the true Gospel of Christ in todays modern world?

Catholics?
Orthodox?
Methodists?
Baptists?.

Orthodox say that they do since they follow John 15:26, whereas the other three add something to what is there. However, Methodists and Baptists say that they do, since they follow Mathew 23:9, whereas the other two do not.

 

[Tomdstone]

If the Catholic Church has not offered another view or changed God’s Word for over 2000 years…

I am not sure. It seems like the view of the Catholic Church has changed with reference to slavery, torture and capital punishment.

 

[dronald]

I am not sure. It seems like the view of the Catholic Church has changed with reference to slavery, torture and capital punishment.

I’ll play the Catholic’s advocate here and ask for a leader of the CC quoting the New Testament as an excuse for those things?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I am not sure. It seems like the view of the Catholic Church has changed with reference to slavery, torture and capital punishment.

The teachings and revelations of God handed down to the Catholic Church from the original apostles has not changed.

What you suppose to be a change (slavery, torture, capital punishment) has nothing to do with my post about the scriptures changing or the teaching and revelation of Jesus Christ.

For the record; The Catholic Church has never excercised and never has the power to excercise capital punishment.

Slavery, torture and capital punishment are human inventions. The Catholic Church has educated the world on all three subjects in respect to the dignity of human life. This the Church has never changed.

Know the difference between what is the Catholic Church in the things of God, and the secular powers who may have been Catholic members giving to Ceasar what belongs to Ceasar.

Most posters fail to know this history who result in a mutilated view of Church history. In summary it is the Catholic Church who suffers for our humanity with the Ceasars.

Peace be with you

 

[Servant19]

For the record; The Catholic Church has never excercised and never has the power to excercise capital punishment.

Therefore, what is the punishment for wilful murder according to the Catholic Church?

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[Gabriel_of_12]

Servant19;12194463]Thankyou dear Gabriel

May I ask, who is preaching the true Gospel of Christ in todays modern world?

Catholics?
Orthodox?
Methodists?
Baptists?

**There is a difference between who is preaching or giving lip service to the gospels and those who are actually living out the gospels and preaching the life of Christ from their own lifestyle.

The only true practicing Christians whom we learn from are those who have taken a vow of Chastity, Poverty, and Obedience to God’s Word and authority. These are not of the world but are in the world. These have given up everything for God and live a life of prayer.

Look to the Popes, bishops, priests, deacons and religious in the Catholic Church. This includes the Orthodox because they are Catholic themselves. History proves the above have changed the world in the positive**.

The Methodists and Baptists and all other faith communities with a valid baptism fall under the umbrella of the Catholic Church, though separated in communion, we all believe and proclaim Christ Crucified. And as lay persons, we all fail to live out the True gospel of Jesus Christ, that is why the ministry of reconciliation was given to the Church, so that sin can be forgiven from repentance.

As far as your poem is concerned; It has some elements that touch and go from the gospels of Jesus Christ. Therefore I can offer you my opinion that your poem or philosophical summary is never any gospel of Jesus Christ.

Who ever relates philosophy to the Truth? Philosophy never measures up to God’s Truth. Philosophy is never gospel, because it offers a view point to a subject, when many others can arrive at a supportive or opposing view from a different philosophical undertaking.

You present the same twist to the God’s Truth as Tonyfish58. When Truth or the Gospels of Jesus Christ stand by themselves as light to the darkness of man’s philosophical undertakings which remain grounded to the world.

Peace be with you